"Supporting" the Troops

I have to agree with you... even though the sentiment is reprehensible, at least he's being honest, unlike most other lefties.

Well, except that many of these "volunteers" can't quite so easily unvolunteer themselves.

And the troops in Iraq aren't the only ones that people can support when they say "I support our troops". There are troops deployed in areas in which most people (including lefties) think they should be deployed.

Mark,

So what's the problem? Did nobody point out when they enlisted there was the possibility that they might, gasp, be involved in a war someday? Were they all unaware of what an army is for?

Oh, and Joel pretty much said he doesn't support those either. He's against troops in Afghanistan, against troops in Kosovo, the guys delivering aid to Pakistan after the earthquake (maybe not hem, I can't remember), prtty much most of the places we have troops.

He made that crack about not guarding against Mexico, probably feels stupid about that with the news of armed incursions into the US. Or maybe he doesn't have enough shame for that.

RC: I'm quite sure they knew there'd always be a possibility of being involved in a war.. but that's not at issue here.

RC: Joel Stein isn't representative of lefties.

I support the troops but not the decision making that caused the troops to be deployed. Is that so hard to understand?

The people in the military are human beings. I'm sure most of the American troops in Iraq right now wish they could come back home. They're in a hot, dry, foreign place with a potential improvised explosive device, suicide bomber, or armed enemy, around every corner. I can't even imagine what that must be like. I admire their dedication to their government and to their country (or, rather, to the half of their country who thinks the war was a good idea). It's also important to remember that a lot of these people probably had fairly limited choices and opportunities in life, so the fact that they "chose" to "volunteer" to be in the military means something different than if you or I "chose" to "volunteer" to be in the military. That's actually a whole other reason why I recognise that they're working very hard to make the most of a very tough situation. They deserve support.

That, though, is different from saying I support the war. I don't think the war was justified. I don't think it's being executed very well. I think the Bush administration made some bad decisions. So I don't support the politicians who made those decisions.

I support the people who are risking their lives to carry out those decisions, not because their mission is noble and good, but because their jobs and their lives are very hard, and they are showing admirable courage and an incredible sense of duty.

The military is a tool. I can admire and support the way this tool is maintained, the way it "thinks" and "acts", the way it is made up of strong and determined people, without having to admire the intentions of those using the tool. A soldier is a puppet, a representative of the intentions of a government, intentions the soldier may or may not himself share. But his job is to represent those intentions, and I can admire and support (and pity) the people doing this tough job without admiring or supporting the intentions.

Gee, Bernardo, perhaps you should look around and read what they themselves say. Sure, I bet a lot of them would rather be home, but they know they are doign something important and are willing to stay.

Mark: I don't recall saying JS *was* representative of lefties. As for the comment before that, yes, it certainly is. Otherwise why would you bring up their inability to unvolunteer? What likley reason could they have for wanting to leave the army they were willing to join other than not liking being in Iraq?

Bernardo, I don't think that the troops in Iraq want your pity or condescension. I think that they know a great deal more about the situation in Iraq than you do. Re-enlistment rates there are high. I think that most of them believe that they are doing something noble and wonderful, because they can see the improvement in Iraq with their own eyes, not filtered through the MSM.

What you claim to support is only your bizarre stereotype of soliders as half-wit semi-literate puppets, trapped under the thumb of an evil regime. But all you're really saying to them is: "I think that everything you believe in is vile, twisted, and corrupt. But I really like you as a human being."

RC: Then your comment about Joel Stein was irrelevant because my comment was not about what his opinions are.

I brought up their inability to unvolunteer in reference to MW's assertion that it's nonsense to claim to support the "volunteers" who are carrying out an activity you don't support. The fact that they're all aware of the potential to be involved in a war is completely irrelevant to what I was addressing.

All right, let me put it this way: There are probably some American soldiers in Iraq who are proud to have the opportunity to do what they're doing. (Ben says that's "most" of them. He could be right, I don't know).

There are probably also some American soldiers in Iraq who regret having joined the military and whish they could go home, and/or who don't really agree with the war.

I was not condescending to any of them. I must admit I do pity this second group, although I do admire their duty and dedication to a goal that was imposed on them by their leaders.

I did not say soldiers are "half-wit" or "semi-literate" - I do agree that they probably have a better understanding of the conditions over there than I do. But I do agree that they are "puppets, trapped under the thumb of an evil regime". I'm not saying they are not smart enough to understand what's going on. Far from it. What I'm saying is that, once they understand what's going on, some probably will agree with it, and some probably won't. The ones who don't agree, stay anyways. Because they feel it is their duty to be a tool of their government (or because they don't want to be court-martialed). And it is that dedication to fulfilling their role as a soldier that I support, even if I don't support what the government is having the soldiers do. Soldiers are puppets, they are like gears in a machine. That doesn't mean they're stupid. It means they're a strong military. Which is just a tool of the government.

I can admire the design, build, and durability of a crane with a wrecking ball on it, without agreeing that a certain building ought to be torn down.

And are re-enlistment rates high because the soldiers care so much about this mission, or because job opportunities once you leave the military are not quite as abundant as the recruitment commercials make them seem?

Bernardo, I can tell you're toning down and trying to be nice, but you've still got the wrong outlook on soldiers, and it borders on insulting.

"It's also important to remember that a lot of these people probably had fairly limited choices and opportunities in life, so the fact that they "chose" to "volunteer" to be in the military means something different than if you or I "chose" to "volunteer" to be in the military."- Way off base, and probably a good thing those guys are so far away or they'd knock you in the head for that. I enlisted in the USMC of my own free will, and left behind the security of my mom and dad's six figure income, and an unfinished college degree. I can assure you my situation was NOT unique. Lots of well off folks do the same thing every year.

You phrase military goals as "a goal that was imposed on them by their leaders." Nothing was imposed on those men that they didn't ask for to begin with. Being a soldier is a HUGE commitment, and not one that should be entered into lightly. What you call imposition I, and other active and non-active military members call discipline. I don't expect you to understand that, though. Discipline isn't for everyone.

"What I'm saying is that, once they understand what's going on, some probably will agree with it, and some probably won't".- Irrelevant. You don't join the military to judge campaigns on a case by case basis. The only thing that really matters to a soldier are the guys on each side of him, and flawless execution of a plan. To engage in thinking about your personal beliefs of a mission while in a warzone is to invite complacency, which consistently breeds death.

"Because they feel it is their duty to be a tool of their government (or because they don't want to be court-martialed)." -Plain stupid. They feel it's their duty because they swore an oath to their country. See discipline for a better understanding of this.

It's not that I find it revolting that you disagree with the military...because I don't. It's your right as an American to think whatever you want. But you go way beyond your mental ability by thinking that you understand the mindset of a soldier, which you clearly do not, and then attempt to feign sympathy for your idea of a soldier.

The reality is, soldiers neither want, nor need your sympathy and pity. From experience, I can tell you that what they would want is for you to just be happy that good men are doing what's necessary so you can be warm and comfy in the states indulging in the luxury of delusional thinking.