I had a few Muslim fellows commenting hundreds of times on this old Shia vs. Sunni post, but I'm having to close the conversation because the number of comments is overloading the server. Perhaps if they want to continue the conversation they can do so here; if anyone else has questions for them about the difference between Shia and Sunni history or beliefs, go for it, they seem pretty knowledgable.
Message of the Day:
Bored? You'll find something new to do at MindThrow! Be a pal and Digg the MindThrow launch announcement (only takes 30 seconds).
Salam brother Muslim.
I just want to comment on what you said previously:
"80% of iraqis r shia yet they found it hard to get rid of 1 bad leader saddam hussein out of power? doesnt that show u how weak shia's are? u fuckers dont live for allah or islam u live for ur big fat bellies n mutaa marriages thats all..."
To me it is clear that Shia people love peace taught by the Prophet Muhammad saaw down to Imam Ali as and so on. Shia believe to never execute someone illegally like many Sunnis do (by killing innocent people). Shia knew better that if they had fought against Sadam, a civil war would've broken out which would've resulted mass killing amongst Muslims. It shows how much Shia care and respect their Sunni brothers and sisters, how much the unity of Muslim brotherhood is above their own affairs and security.
About the muta, brother, you really must broaden your knowledge before you bring any subject to a discussion forum. Look around you in your Sunni community. Don't you read papers? Didn't your scholars tell you anything about Misyar marriage that has been legalized by the biggest Sunni leaders and practiced legally in Saudi, Egypt and other countries with the majority of Sunnis? Like muta in Shia, there are pros and contras, of course. Here's some brief explanation about it for you. You can also find out more about it through other websites:
Marriage institution in Islam, allowing for a lesser form of relationship between man and woman than normal marriage, zawaj.
Misyar is an official relationship between man and woman, but does not involve that the two live together, nor that the man is economically responsible. Misyar allows the man to have a normal wife in a addition to his misyar-wife(s). The misyar wife is expected to live with her
parents, and her husband can visit her according to a predetermined schedule.
Misyar has been practiced in Saudi Arabia and Egypt for years. It was officially legalized by the Egyptian Sunni Imam Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi in February 1999, and the Mufti of Egypt has also been defending the arrangement of misyar.
Misyar has been widely discussed through the year of 1998. Misyar has met strong opposition from scholars outside Egypt, but also from
many in Egypt, especially among scholars at the al-Azhar University in Cairo. Defenders of misyar claim that the arrangement is in accordance with Islam. They also say that it gives protection to many women who do not find husbands in the more traditional way.
Misyar has many similarities with mut'a, practiced in Shi'i Islam, except for the preceding definition of duration. But misyar can
easily be terminated with standard divorce, making it quite possible to form temporary marriage of even short periods.
hahahahahaha....I am starting this thread with a big laugh...hahahahahahaha
Thanks Michael Williams
Sunni Islam (if I may call it) is a laughing stock, very little logic, big stories but no lessons, their religion does not go above Umar's belly button.... what do you think?
Muslim! Try doing prayer and at the end of prayer do not send Salaam on Prophet (pbuh) and his progeny. What will happen to your Salaat, would it be accepted? (It won't be accepted anyways because your salaat is wrong to start with, does not meet Prophet's (pbuh) standard)But still according to your standard and for the sake of argument, would it be accepted?
If it is compulsory in your Salaat to send Salaam on the Prophet (pbuh) and his progeny then don't blame Shias it they take their names in the sajood.
Cheers
Brother Ali Ameem “ jug jug jiyo…naam Ali da liyo”…” Ali da pehla number… Damadum must qalandar”….LOL
The following is fresh from my brain and it’s for you Brother Ali Ameem!
Mil gaye jo noor doo cuch iss tarhah roze Ghadeer
Noor key darya labey kosar bahai jaingay
Mimbare bay misl per hain saqiya kosar kharey
Maarefat key jam bhur bhur kar pilaye jaingay
Hoo gayee takmeele deen, nafiz imamat hoo gayee
Sirf barah taj-e-sultani sajaye jaingay
Sazishe aqba hey mujrim kal karaingay apna kaam
Aaj jhoontey naraey bakhkhin lagaye jaingay
Chup rahey khandaq main buzdil jesy tair ser peh hoon
Aaj un key haathon key totey ura aye jaingay
Go keh sabit hai imamat ayah-e-baligh key baad
Kufr key fatwaye magar phir bhi lagaye jaingey
Pa-ain gey jaanat ki khushboo kis tarha dozakh key paas
Munkire maula jahannam main jalaiye jaingay
Hoo gaye pur noor jo noore hidayat sey sada
Loriyn dey kar lahed main who sulaye jaingay
Roze mahsher hai yeh umidain kah Syed key gunah
Hubb-e-Haider key evaz sarey dhulaye jaingay
How is it?
Salam brother Amer,
Your statement "No One has answerd the question.
How does any one know what the prophet was going to wright. No one does!" has in fact been answered many times before. I wonder if you actually read what others have posted previously. Perhaps, you should re-read them, really. This way, you won't waste others' time rewriting it.
Historians have written many incidents where Umar Al Khattab doubted Prophet's decision. These historians were Sunnis for i never took or considered any materials from the Shia because what i found in the Sunni's was sufficient to proove that Umar Al Khattab often disobeyed Prophet.
2 days before Prophet's death, he and Abu Bakr questioned Prophet's decision of choosing a young man Usamah ibn Haritha (at that time Usamah was only 18 year old) to be the commander in chief and hold a big responsibility as he leads important army of Muhajereen and Ansar for an expedition to Asia. Prophet did not choose Umar or Abu Bakr, instead they had to obey this young man during the mission. As usual, Umar questioned Prophet'd decision and critized Prophet along with Abu Bakr and other companions just like when they critized Prophet for appointing Usamah's father as an army commander before.
They went on criticizing until the Prophet became so angry that he got up from his bed, still sick with fever and with his head bandaged, with two men supporting him because he could hardly stand straight. He praised Allah highly then said:
"O People ! I have been informed that some of you object to my appointing Usamah as commander of the detachment. You now object to my appointing Usamah as commander in chief as you objected to me appointing his father commander in chief before him. By Allah, his father was certainly competent for his appointment as commander in chief and his son is also competent for the appointment."
Then he said,
"Send the detachment of Usamah; deploy the detachment of Usamah, send forward the detachment of Usamah."
He kept repeating the exhortations but the companions were still hesitant, and camped by al-Jurf.
My comment on this is pretty much the same with those who were searching for the truth before me; i could not believe that Umar (known as the one of the greatest leaders amongst the majority of Muslims) had played such a dangerous role! Though it made me realize why Prophet didn't assign one of his 'senior' companions like Umar or Abu Bakr to lead the army. Simply because they didn't obey Prophet! It has been prooved in many occasions before.
I'd like to ask you one thing tho. What is your opinion on Umar Al Khattab claiming that Prophet saaw had delusions when he (Prophet) ordered Umar to get a paper and pen?
Furthermore, Umar said, "you have the Qur'an, and it is sufficient for us being the Book of Allah."
Do you really think that he (Umar) knows the Qur'an better than Prophet, for whom it was revealed? And if you really believe that Quran is sufficient, you would also have to believe in whatever Prophet has said and done because these two could never be separated as clearly stated in the Quran.
The Sunnis tend to defend Umar by saying that he had nothing but good intention, but then again, this kind of reason doesn't match with Prophet's reaction after that. And do you really think that Prophet wouldn't know the good will of Umar and thank him for that? Of course he would, but instead, Prophet was so angry at him and finally told all of them to leave his house.
Again, all of this small amount of stories are written and taken out from Sunni's books for i never took Shia's references.
Even in the presence of Prophet at that time, people were already divided into two parties: one agreeing with the Messenger of Allah about writing that document, while the other agreed with Umar "that he was talking nonsense".
Which side would you choose?
It is essential for us to choose which side we'd want to be. Don't tell me that it happened in the past and therefore it is not important. No, my friends, it is very important as it was the beginning of devisions of Muslims! Allah says in the Quran to be on the right side when 2 parties are fighting for one of them is wrong. Now use your common sense please. You don't need to be a scholar to take such action.
What kind of excuses could we forward for Umar?? I failed to find one because it would be against the Quran that orders them and all of us to OBEY and NEVER QUESTION Prophet's every single word for he is the most knowledgeable and whom which the Quran was revealed to. All of his words and actions were inspired by Allah. If we questioned Prophet, we would at the same time question Allah. A'udhubillah.
Ma'asalam
Salaam Tod
My Urdu isn't that brilliant but I get the jist this is about Ghadeer.
Sazishe aqba hey mujrim kal karaingay apna kaam
Aaj jhoontey naraey bakhkhin lagaye jaingay
' Bakhin mein Chhupaata hai koiee apna Sharaarat... Yeh Kaun Ajaaib ka Mazhar, Kaun Valli hai? Yeh Maula Ali Maula Ali Maula Ali hai. Yeh Maula Ali hai. Yeh Maula Ali hai. '
Why are people unable to see clearly, the alterior motives of Umar?
Thankyou Seyyed. The poem was beautiful. Is it your own?
May Allah bless the poets who write in the love of Aale Mohammed, with Palaces in Paradise.
Wassalaam
W/S brother Ameem
Yes it was about Ghadeer and I wrote it for a Mehfil as I do every year. It was a bit longer but I gave you last few shairs. If you send me e-mail I will be glad to send you the whole.
Btw...thanks for your dua.
You wrote a nice one too...hahaha good one.
Yes right! only blind people can follow Umar...LOL
sallam brother in islam
all the same bullshit,lies,hyprocy and no truth.
Allah is the judge not man that thinks with his dick.
Mohammad (pbuh) gave sallam to ALSIDDAQ which the prophet named him that you diseaed people say he was a bad man,The prophet gave Umar sallam you evil people so why dont you give sallam to these great men,why because the shia were the first to divide the ummah and what does ALLAh say about the people that divide the Ummah Iam sure you know boys.
Ali AMMEM i have answerd every question that you have given me,but the shaytan of yours does not accept my answer.
How can a muslim be muslim ad say bad words about the people that the prophet walked with,trusted,married his daughters.ate with,prayed with,gave sallam to,whent to Battle with,HOW YOU EVIL PEOPLE WASNT THE PROPHET SINLESS YOU DUMB BLIND PEOPLE.
brother Ali Ammem why did Immam Ali marry his daughter to Immam umar?
Why did The Prophet mary Abu bakr duaghter aicha You dim wits tink hard you morons.
Why did The prophet mary 2 of his daughters to Uthman,why,why,why,why,why,why to show shia are the enimes of the truth ISLAM.
Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 110:
AN-NASR (SUCCOUR, DIVINE SUPPORT)
Total Verses: 3
Revealed At: MADINA
Maududi's introduction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
110.001
YUSUFALI: When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory,
PICKTHAL: When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh
SHAKIR: When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,
110.002
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
110.003
YUSUFALI: Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
PICKTHAL: Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.
SHAKIR: Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).
allah says WHEN people come to crowds(muslims) you so called muslims,is a very very very small miniorty does your punie sect prove this verse wrong?????????or is it that the 1.5 billion muslims made up of 85 percent ad ill give a bit more than the truth 15% shia and aliwe whats is bigger i crowds so called muslims???????????????
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
sallam
oh ye how do the shia knows what the prophet was goig to wright,oh through the Immams Ok thats a good answer.
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
About The Detatchment of Usama
Thankyou for your last post Dee. If it is possible could you please give the Hadith Refferences in relation to the above, to clarify the truth of the incident further to the Sunni Qaum.
It reminds me of the medieval movies, of Sheakespear, Macbeth.
In the days of old the great Kings used to head the battles on horseback. I mean they were actually THERE not just in spirit but at the VERY least, on the battle field giving the troops support.
I mean they took the role of the politicians as well as of the soldiers, they were complete all rounders, that's what made them leaders in the eyes of men.
If we are to go by the false notion that Abu Bakr's ascension to the Caliphate was based upon him leading the prayers, then what about The Prophet's CLEAR designation of the 18 yr old USAMA
to lead Abu Bakr and Umar in Battle?
Excuse me, but by virtue of your own base for the succession of Abu Bakr, doesn't that make Usama the Leader of YOUR first two Caliphs?!
We CONSTANTLY hear from The Sunni's about the supposed 'Last Sermon of the Prophet', but when the very real evidences from their own Sahih Hadith's come to light about the ORDERING of Battle Detatchments, and requests for the writing of a WILL we find them ( the Sunni's) going into a heavy sense of denial.
It is typical that they wish to once again hold on to this 'non controversial' rosy coloured ideal for the sake of preserving their own selfish arguments, rather than see the truth of conspiracy in the broad daylight.
In view of the evidences, I sincerely pray for Allah to open their eyes.
Wassalaam
Dear Amer
You still haven't answered my question.
Why have you considered the Hadith of Umar having denied the command of Mohammed to bring paper and pen ,to be FABRICATED when Al Bukhari has considered it to be SAHIH?
Wassalaam
On That Day
On that day the left hand of
'those three' will be quite strained
by the weight of deeds for which
the Masoomeen were pained.
And Fatimah tu Zahra
the mother of them all
with palms raised high upon
'the three' for justice she will call.
What will be their answer for
the stealing of the land
known to us as Fidak
did they then not understand
The land that they were stealing
from the mother of Hussayn
was given by The Prophet
and the evidence was plain.
Whosover hated Fatema
they hated too
The religion of Allah
I forward this to you
That the voting in
for Abu Bakr was a scheme
to cut the head of Al Hussain
and raise their own esteem.
Open up your eyes
clearly see the lies.
The Point of Unity
Revolves upon Ali.
Do not take the other
for The Prophet's brother.
The Truthfully appointed
By Allah is annointed
as being PURIFIED.
All the others lied
when they said they couldn't see
The raised hand of Ali
at Ghadire Khumm.
You have to go to Qum
or Najaf just to find
The Knowledge. They are blind
if they STILL cannot see
THE Successor is Ali.
No matter how you try
to answer, asking WHY
We shall not stand defeated
THE MISSION is completed
via blood within the vein
that leads from Al Hussein
unto The Twelfth Imam
THE SAVIOUR OF ISLAM.
Umar cannot take
the place of our Imam
IMAM! HUSSEIN !
LABBAYK YA IMAM!
Wassalaam
sallam
I did not say the hadith is fabricated please read carefully dude.
YOU still have not answrd my question how do YOU know what the prophet(pbuh)was going to wright.
Please answer islamically not shaytanny.
Was the prophet dumb for hanging around these great men Immam Abu bakr and so on?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
sallam
I did not say the hadith is fabricated please read carefully dude.
YOU still have not answrd my question how do YOU know what the prophet(pbuh)was going to wright.
Please answer islamically not shaytanny.
Was the prophet dumb for hanging around these great men Immam Abu bakr and so on?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
Dear Amer
I did not say I know what The Prophet was going to write.
It is not the issue ( although it is blindingly obvious ) as to what Mohammed was going to write. The more pressing issue is WHY did Umar deny him from writing it?
Can you please answer the question.
Salaam All,
The question remains, why Umar did not give or let anyone give the pen and paper to the Prophet (pvuh) who ordered for it because he wanted to write and said “bring me a pen and paper so I can write something for you by which you will never stray from right path”. Denying Prophet (pbuh) of anything he orders is kufr.
Let’s analyse the situation what Prophet (pbuh) wanted to write for people as his last wish.
Obviously when the Prophet (pbuh) had asked for pen and paper, the answer would have been “Yes Sir” by the people. But Umar said no “kitabullah is enough for us”. What kind of an answer was that? He should have said “sorry Sir the pen and paper is not here”.
Now there are few things here;
1. Prophet (pbuh) knew well that “kitabullah” was not enough for some of the people like Umar. So he wanted to write something in addition for the people that his writing would have become like a seal and people would have no choice but to follow it and stayed on the right path.
2. Umar did not want to stay on the right path so he said “No Sir, kitabbulah is enough for me”.
3. The addressees were all the people gathered around the Prophet (pbuh). Then, why only Umar spoke up against it. He should have listened to the other people as well who were in favour of giving the Prophet (pbuh) the pen and paper.
4. Umar knew exactly what Prophet (pbuh) was going to write so he said “Kitabullah is enough for us” otherwise only a person insane would have denied the Prophet (pbuh) of pen and paper.
5. Umar’s own answer tells us that the Prophet (pbuh) had told them what he was going to write on a piece of paper. If Prophet (pbuh) did not tell them then why he said “kitabullah is enough for us” and started fighting with the people gathered around the Prophet’s (pbuh) bed. Giving pen and paper to the Prophet (pbuh) was not worth fighting with the people, but Umar knew the CONTENT of the writing which was about to be revealed by the Prophet (pbuh) so he resisted that. The Prophet’s (pbuh) writing would have been “Ali (as) is your Khalifah, Maula, Imam, Wali after me, follow him and you will never stray from the right path”.
It’s like Prophet (pbuh) was offering him and all the people an additional writing or essence of all his preaching during his Prophet hood but Umar did not accept that, if I may say “sure thing”, Prophet (pbuh) was about to write.
Hence, Islam was hijacked by Umar!!
sallam
Tod shia must be so Dumb and blind.
Answer the question you (antiislam nazi shia)the fisrt sect to divide Islam.
What was the prophet(pbuh)going to write?????????????,as many times use make up lies and fabrication against people better than you and me and better then all you so called perfect Immams other Than IMMAM ALI and his Sons R.A.
When Prophet (pbuh) was alive the azthan was origiall till now called by the "SUNNIS" but with Shia it as changed yous didnt obey Allah and the prophet so are use KAFFIRS????????OR AHAL ALBIDA????????
Out of all these hadith about the great Immam Abu Bakr (alsiddiq)that the prophet named is the truthful one and about Umar and uthman do you think that their all lies?????????
If the prophet can write,why didnt he write the Holy Quran more Important then any Of your so called sinless perfect prophets oops i mean Immams.
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
How can a muslim be muslim ad say bad words about the people that the prophet walked with,trusted,married his daughters.ate with,prayed with,gave sallam to,whent to Battle with,HOW YOU EVIL PEOPLE think like tis, WASNT THE PROPHET SINLESS YOU DUMB BLIND PEOPLE.
brother Ali Ammem why did Immam Ali marry his daughter to Immam umar?
Why did The Prophet mary Abu bakr duaghter aicha You dim wits tink hard you morons.
Why did The prophet mary 2 of his daughters to Uthman,why,why,why,why,why,why to show shia are the enimes of the truth ISLAM.
Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 110:
AN-NASR (SUCCOUR, DIVINE SUPPORT)
Total Verses: 3
Revealed At: MADINA
Maududi's introduction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
110.001
YUSUFALI: When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory,
PICKTHAL: When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh
SHAKIR: When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,
110.002
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
110.003
YUSUFALI: Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
PICKTHAL: Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.
SHAKIR: Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).
allah says WHEN people come to crowds(muslims) you so called muslims,is a very very very small miniorty does your punie sect prove this verse wrong?????????or is it that the 1.5 billion muslims made up of 85 percent ad ill give a bit more than the truth 15% shia and aliwe whats is bigger i crowds so called muslims???????????????
Ali Ammem And Tod STOP AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS JUST SIMPLE AND ISLAMIC QUESTIONS VERY EASY EVEN ARE KAFFIR CAN FIGURE IT OUT
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
sallam
this question is to deeeeeeeee
Lets put islam aside.
Mutha is it good in sceince terms??????????????
dont think so,its only for the evil,dirty,horney,horney,horney,antimuslim.
Can i do mutha with yours sisters(sorry to be discussting)but that is the question horney sunnis guys are saying to our shai brothers,does it sound wright in islam.
I think the scholars that you talk about a another lie trying to justify ZINA.
allah knows best
amerislam
sallam
Would it be fare,if i do mutha with a muslim chick because i and her were horny,then all of a sudden a couple of months down the track she is pregnant oh nooooooooo.
We have the child and one day the child would grow and the child would ask "dad how did you and mum meet and when did you and mum decide to have me".
I would reply with the truth as a muslim should do and say"child one day i and your mother were horny so we relived our desires and POP here you are.
Know does that sound fare from a islamic and unislamic view Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
MAY ALLAH BESTOW HIS WRATH ON THOSE THAT THE PROPHET(PBUH)GAVE SALLAM TO AND WERE HIS STUDENTS.
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
Salaam brothers.
The Usamah ibn Zayd incident is written in Al-Tabaqat by Ibn Sa'ad Vol. 2, Tarikh Ibn al-Athir Vol. 2, Al-Sirah ai-Halabiyah Vol. 3, and Tarikh al-Tabari Vol. 3.
Maasalam
sallam
254. O you who believe! Spend of that with which We have provided for you, before a Day comes when there will be no bargaining, nor friendship, nor intercession. And it is the disbelievers who are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers, etc.).
255. Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursî[64] extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse 2:255 is called Ayat-ul-Kursî.]
256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Tâghût[65] and believes in Allâh, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
Were is our Immams(sinless ones)on that day???????
allah kows best
amerislam
Geez, you two, get your own blog and quit hijacking Michael's bandwidth with your conversation! Or just send each other e-mails!
AmeerIaslam!! I have doubt that you understand simple English. Read what I wrote above and you'll get answer to your question. (God willing)
All lies, Ali (as) never married any of his daughters to Umar. (See my post earlier.)
Prophet (pbuh) never married any of his daughters to Uthman...because he did not have three daughters...he has only one. The daughters you were talking about were adopted ones by Khadijah (sa) before her marriage to the Prophet (pbuh) since being a rich woman and on the “Deen-e-Ibrahimi” (Islamic religion) she used to support may.
Btw…Abu Bakr, Umar and all “big names” used to get loans from Khadijah (sa) for their businesses and they owed her money until their loans were forgiven by Khadijah (sa) as they accepted Islam.
Umar made “Tawafun-Nisa” HARAM for you. Tell me do you do it during Hajj?
As far as I know whoever (Sunni) goes to Hajj does not do “Tawafun-Nisa” then spouse of that person becomes HARAM on him and he/she can’t keep husband wife relations. If he/she does keep the relation (adultery) without “Tawafun-Nisa” then the children born out of that will be bastards.
His/her spouse does not become HALAL until he/she does “Tawafun-Nisa” but most Sunnis don’t do it since they consider it HARAM so imagine what they are….
It was asked from Umar that why he did “Tawafun-Nisa” HARAM?
He said I have heard from Prophet (as) that he said “O’ Ali only a bastard will hate you”. (It is simple fact that who ever hate Ali (as) will never love Imams coming from Ali’s (as) progeny as well… that’s why most Sunnis hate all 12 Imams (as))
Umar said that Prophet (pbuh) can’t be wrong. Since Umar hated Ali (as), he wanted all people would hate Ali (as) too. Umar found a way by making “Tawafun-Nisa” HARAM, that most people become bastards so they would hate Ali (as).
The majority of people (who are Sunnis now) have become bastards and they all hate Ali (as). Umar’s desires were full filled.
Umar did a number on you Sunnis…LOL
Quran says that “Waduz-zina” (born out of adultery) will never smell the fragrant of Paradise. Here we go…you decide where majority is going now…. hahahaha
If you know what is a Marriage then you will know what is Mutah is. Most Sunnis don’t understand Marriage so how come they understand Mutah?
WHAT IS A MARRIAGE, CAN YOU DEFINE THE MARRIAGE?
Dear Amer
I did not say I know what The Prophet was going to write.
It is not the issue ( although it is blindingly obvious ) as to what Mohammed was going to write. The more pressing issue is WHY did Umar deny him from writing it?
Can you please answer the question.
Also Umar was the first to devide Islam at the side of the Prophet's (pbuh) bed there and then when the Prophet (pbuh) asked for a pen and paper. Shias were never left the Prophet (pbuh) and his family. So SHIAS are on Islam the way Propher (pbub) wanted them to be.
Eat your heart out...AmeerIslam....LOL
Salaam Brothers in Islam
Thankyou Dee for providing us with the referrences pertaining to The Detatchment of Usama.
Al-Tabaqat by Ibn Sa'ad Vol. 2, Tarikh Ibn al-Athir Vol. 2, Al-Sirah ai-Halabiyah Vol. 3, and Tarikh al-Tabari Vol. 3.
We hope Amer seeks to find the status and authority of these great Sunni Historians, to realise the truth behind the disobedience of The Supposed Great Sahabah, as they were time and again repulsed to obey the simple commands of our Holy Prophet especially toward his last days.
Thankyou Tod for once again answering Amer who it still seems is unable to get his head around who the Prophet's real daughters actually were.
It is not a defence for Ayesha that she was a wife of The Prophet and therefore free from comitting acts of overwhelnming sin and atrocity. Once again it is very clear from The Quranic evidence about the wife of Nuh, that the Greatest of Prophet's were indeed DISTURBED and HINDERED by their own wives - so I shall humbly ask Amer to drop the argument in favour of Imam Ali's sworn enemy at The Battle of The Camel.
Wassalaam
sallam
you say all of this nonsense,but no reply to my answer(simple questions).
OUT OF 100 PEOPLE(MUSLIMS) 85 PEOPLE SAY THAT THE PROPHET HAD MARRIED HIS DAUGHTERS TO uTHMAN AND UMAR AND ALI R.A,BUT ON A FEW SMALL SMALL SMALL AMOUNT ABOUT 10 ALL GIVE A BIT MORE 12 OUT OF A HUNDRED SAY THE PROPHET(PBUH)HAD ONLY ONE,now who you belive????????????????????
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
AMERISLAM
sallam
marriage in basic terms for Knew muslims.
when one another acceptes each other as husband and wife that are willing to love,respect,commit,provide to each onthers needs.
Must Inform parents and others publicly.
Must be done in front of a sheick with 2 witness.
People must know that you are married to one onther.
Must be done accordingly as the Quran states.
Must stay away from Haram(zina,alchole,etc).
I hope Tod thats enough if more needed plse ask
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
sallam
dee plse infrom me the rules of Mutha
Tod plse inform me of the rules of mutha
Ali plse inform me the rules of mutha
Assalaam un alaykum Amer
Although we are not quoting directly verses from the Quran, it is assumed by OVER 85% of all Muslim sects, that within it there are guidelines that expressly state for the command of The Prophet to be followed.
Or should we say that following 'The Sunnah' comes in categories.
. acting as The Prophet acted.
. objecting to what The Prophet objected.
. allowing for what The Prophet allowed.
. being instructed by What The Prophet had instructed.
Hazrat Aadam has been referred to as KHALIFA in The Quran, Hazrat Ibraheem has been referred to as IMAM ( as well as Shi'ah ). Aside from this The Progeny of Ibraheem have been referrred to in the same light.
There is NOWHERE in The Quran where either Abu Bakr OR Umar have been given these honorific titles so WHY have you falsely accredited them to Sahabah who were unable to even attend The Prophet Mohammed's Burials?
Was it not ' The Sunnah ' of the Prophet Mohammed to attend Burials?
You maintain that you have answered all our questions, but that the shaytaan in us does not wish to accept your answer.
Yet still you have not answered the vital query in relation to the denial, via the standard instruction of Mohammed, by Umar, for a pen and paper.
Once again.
It is not the issue ( although it is blindingly obvious ) as to what Mohammed was going to write. The more pressing issue is WHY did Umar deny him from writing it?
Can you please answer the question.
You are laughing stock AmeerIslam!...hahahahaha
Think this way and you'll see your statistics fail.
90% of people get an information from an unreliable source but 10% get it from a reliable source. Who will you consider right? 90% ones or 10% ones?
Secondly if the information is coming from the horses mouth then how you feel about it as being reliable?
Don't forget whatever the Sunnah of prophet is known to people is what he did outside of his house but whatever he did inside only his family knows. Like how he delt with his chidren, his wives and other household affairs. This information is only available to his family so family (Ahlal Bayt) are the best source. I don't know why people keep running after Abu Hurirah who was not even a Muslim most of his life.
Go read your history books and come back to argue...we are tired of teaching you your own history...
sallam
Oh Tod was the prophet(pbuh)usinf taqqiya.ha ha ha you goose,the prophet was open with evey one .
Brother Ali Ammem do you have a beard????
Brother Ali Ammem is your favorite food palm date well its not mine,does that make me not love the prophet (pbuh).
When my mother may ALLAH have mercy on her,when she was passing away 19 months ago,she was asking for ALLAH say "ya rubb" "ya rubb" do act on that or you leave some one that is passing way leaving them in peace.
If it was so important why didnt the prophet(pbuh)wright earlier in his days(pbuh)???????????????.
Why didnt he wright the QURAN ALSO???????????
DONT JUDE ANY ONE ALLAH IS THE JUDGE,OTHER THAN ALLAH IS A KAFFIR
answer my other question people plse about MUTHA?
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
SALLAM
Tod use a better senireo then that champ.
I gave a quote from the Holy Quran understand it,beilve it,follow it.
110.002
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
allah knows best
AmerIslam
sallam
Know the majority of shia,is that what ALLAH call crowds,companies,troops.
I dont think so
MAY ALLAH GUIDE US INSHALLAH(QURAN AND MOHAMMAD
)IS ENOUGH GUIDENCE
Allah knows best
amerislam
sallam
durig other prophets days where their Immams in their times?
And dot give Ibrahim pbuh his children where Prophets.Immam Means Leader to his people,so dont think Immam means higer status than Prophets.
WHO HAS BEEN YOUR IMMAM FOR THE LAST 300 TO 400 YEARS,bROTHER Ali Ammen said that ALLAH never leaves us without a immam,WELL
Allah Knows Best
Amerislam
Amerislam,
Imam Mehdi(a.s)is our imam from last 1,000 years.And what about you,Usama bin Laden or Sadam???
Quran says WA KALILAN MIN IBADIA SHAKUR.And very few(MINORITY) are remembering me.Who is the minority in islam????Shia or Sunni???
sallam
walla brothers i think you should talk for your self.
Immam MEHDI comn dude wake up smell the coffe where is he,where man???????
Miniority means from all of mankind brothers in islam plse understand islam and the quran.
OK,MEHDI IS YOUR IMMAM WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNT FROM HIM????????????
110.002
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
hahahahahaha....Amerislam...I have seen stupid people but not that stupid... OMG...hahahahaha...can't stop laughing...hahaha
"Prophet (pbuh) was open to everyone" ...yeah right... as if he did not have a private life with his family or his grand kids...
Amerislam, Prophet (pbuh) had told people on may occasions time after time that “follow Ali (as) after me”. There are hadiths to prove it from your SUNNI books. Yet you people did not know he said that or your people were hiding what Prophet (pbuh) had said or your Kahifahs had beaten the shit out of your forefathers so badly that they did not remember anything, their beating took its toll and their generations were born retarded... feel sorry for you… LOL
If you want to quote Quran then quote fully…
بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا جَاء نَصْرُ اللَّهِ وَالْفَتْحُ {1}
[Shakir 110:1] When there comes the help of Allah and the victory,
[Yusufali 110:1] When comes the Help of Allah, and Victory,
[Pickthal 110:1] When Allah's succour and the triumph cometh
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 110:1]
The pagans of Makka opposed and persecuted the Holy Prophet from the day he openly preached the religion of Allah to them. Then he migrated to Madina. All the conspiracies, intrigues and plots of the Makkans and their allies to destroy the Holy Prophet and his mission recoiled on their own heads. Gradually all the people of Arabia rallied round him and the bloodless conquest of Makka was the conclusion of his patient and constant striving in the cause of Allah-a promise made by Allah ultimately fulfilled. Those who had hitherto held aloof, then hastened to offer their allegiance to the religion of Allah. Delegations flocked from near and far to offer obedience to the Holy Prophet. Gibbon refers to it as "one of the most memorable revolutions which have impressed a new and lasting character on the nations of the globe". The expansion of Islam is the most miraculous of all miracles. Polytheism yielded to monotheism.
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
In the spiritual state of realization the Holy Prophet saw every being in submission to the will of Allah in the light of verse 84 of Ali Imran.
وَرَأَيْتَ النَّاسَ يَدْخُلُونَ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ أَفْوَاجًا {2}
[Shakir 110:2] And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
[Yusufali 110:2] And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
[Pickthal 110:2] And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 110:2] (see commentary for verse 1)
فَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ وَاسْتَغْفِرْهُ إِنَّهُ كَانَ تَوَّابًا {3}
[Shakir 110:3] Then celebrate the praise of your Lord, and ask His forgiveness; surely He is oft-returning (to mercy).
[Yusufali 110:3] Celebrate the praises of thy Lord, and pray for His Forgiveness: For He is Oft-Returning (in Grace and Mercy).
[Pickthal 110:3] Then hymn the praises of thy Lord, and seek forgiveness of Him. Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 110:3]
Refer to the commentary of Mumin: 55; Fath: 2 and Muhammad: 15 and 19 for the meaning of the phrase "wastaghfirhu" whenever it is used for the infallible Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.
After the bloodless conquest of Makka, the Holy Prophet stood at the entrance of Ka-bah and said:
"There is no god save Allah. He has fulfilled His promised and helped His servant."
Inside the Ka-bah he pointed to each of the 360 idols with his staff reciting: "Truth has come and falsehood has vanished"-Bani Israil: 82-and the idol fell down on its face. The great idol named Hubal was fixed on a high position beyond reach. To destroy it, the Holy Prophet asked Ali to mount on his shoulders. Ali mounted as was desired and standing over the shoulders of the Holy Prophet wrenched the idol and threw it, to the ground. It crashed to pieces. Refer to Madarij al Nabuwa, Habib al Siyar; Sharh Mawahib, Rawdat al Ahbab.
As stated by the Holy Prophet to Ibn Abbas this verse gave a hint to his departure from this world.
Amerislam, now you yourself try to understand the above Surah which came for the victory Makkah. It has nothing to do with your majority now at this time.
You can see in commentary, Ali (as) was still there…How you can avoid him now hahahahahaha
eat your heart out...
One more thing Amerislam, have you seen Shaitan? If not then how come you believe on Shaitan?
Show me the Shaitan and I will show you the Rehman.
Smell the coffee?
Points to ponnder...
وَإِذْ أَخَذَ اللّهُ مِيثَاقَ النَّبِيِّيْنَ لَمَا آتَيْتُكُم مِّن كِتَابٍ
وَحِكْمَةٍ ثُمَّ جَاءكُمْ رَسُولٌ مُّصَدِّقٌ لِّمَا مَعَكُمْ لَتُؤْمِنُنَّ بِهِ وَلَتَنصُرُنَّهُ قَالَ أَأَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَخَذْتُمْ عَلَى ذَلِكُمْ إِصْرِي قَالُواْ أَقْرَرْنَا قَالَ فَاشْهَدُواْ وَأَنَاْ مَعَكُم مِّنَ الشَّاهِدِينَ {81}
[Shakir 3:81] And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
[Yusufali 3:81] Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
[Pickthal 3:81] When Allah made (His) covenant with the prophets, (He said): Behold that which I have given you of the Scripture and knowledge. And afterward there will come unto you a messenger, confirming that which ye possess. Ye shall believe in him and ye shall help him. He said: Do ye agree, and will ye take up My burden (which I lay upon you) in this (matter)? They answered: We agree. He said: Then bear ye witness. I will be a witness with you.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:81]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:
Mithaq (covenant) in this verse refers to an individual's accountability for his actions. It is argued by some commentators that wherever mithaq is used in the Quran reference is made to the era prior to the existence of man in general and the prophets in particular. As there is no possibility of retaining any kind of conscious state prior to the physical birth of man, this assumption will be discussed when ruh (soul) and nafs (self) are dealt with.
Whatever is the grammatical implication (whether the phrase lima or lama is relative or conditional) the meaning remains as under:
Allah had made a covenant with each of His prophets, as an individual and as the leader of his respective followers (saying)-that which I have given you of the book and wisdom, (and) when a prophet will come to you confirming that which is with you, you shall surely believe in him and help him. All the prophets accepted the conditions of the covenant and promised and witnessed that their followers will carry out the terms of the covenant. This promise was fulfilled by every prophet concerning his succeeding prophet (and every succeeding prophet confirmed his predecessor), so all the prophets and their followers have to believe in the last prophet and help him. A true follower of Musa should fulfil the covenant Musa made with his Lord by believing in Isa; likewise a true follower of Isa should fulfil the covenant Isa made with his Lord by believing in Muhammad. If the Jews and the Christians do not believe in the last prophet of Allah, they render the covenant, Musa and Isa made with the Lord of worlds, null and void. They will be punished for breaking the covenant, not Musa and Isa, who fulfilled their promise in letter and spirit. Please refer to the commentary of al Ma-idah: 67 for the last covenant Allah took from the Muslims through the Holy Prophet about the wilayah (authority) of Ali ibna abi Talib at Ghadir Khum. It was the last divine guidance made available to man through the grace of the merciful Lord, so that an Imam after Imam, in the progeny of Ali, should guide mankind in every age till the day of resurrection.
Every human being perceives his coming into the conscious state from an insensitive condition through the agency of an active will, dominating him and his environment, which stimulates natural submission. In these verses (preceding and succeeding) the Quran introduces the universal religion (based upon reason and facts) prescribed for mankind which not only awakens positive response but also demolishes the myths fabricated by the Jews, the Christians and the pagans.
The old and the New Testaments, though not the original Tawrat and Injil (see "The Tawrat" and "The Injil" at the end of al Ma-idah), yet contain enough material to establish the fact that Musa and Isa fulfilled their covenant made with Allah. See Deuteronomy 18: 15, 18, 19; Acts 3: 22 to 24, 7: 37; John 1: 19 to 21; 14: 16, 17; 15: 26; 16: 7 to 14. (Text of these have been mentioned in the commentary of al Baqarah: 40). The advent of the Holy Prophet had been made known in clear words by Musa and Isa. In John 1: 19 to 21, it is stated that when Levites asked John the Baptist who he was, he confessed that he was not the Messiah nor Elijah. "Are you the prophet we await?" "No", he said. It shows that the people remembered the prophecies about the last prophet made by the previous prophets, and eagerly awaited his advent.
In John 14: 16, 17; 15: 26 and 16: 7 to 14, Isa refers to the Holy Prophet as comforter and spirit of truth, who will guide mankind into all truth. And "who will be with you for ever" implies that there shall always be a representative of him (his flesh and blood) on the earth, identical to him in purity (Ahzab: 33), who will carry out his mission.
The Holy Prophet has said:
The first of us is Muhammad,
the middle of us is Muhammad,
the last of us is Muhammad,
everyone of us is Muhammad.
In every age, one of his sons (his descendant), in the progeny of Ali and Fatimah, will guide mankind as an Imam of the time till the day of resurrection. The Holy Prophet, Ali, Fatimah and the eleven holy Imams are of the one and the same divine light, manifesting the glory of the Lord of the worlds.
A sincere seeker of truth, in his quest, comes to the conclusion that the divine source of guidance is Muhammad al Mustafa, the last prophet of Allah, and the Imams among his Ahl ul Bayt, whom the merciful Allah has particularly chosen to show the path of love, harmony and salvation to mankind.
يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ {67}
[Yusufali 5:67] O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:67]
The followers of "Muhammad and ali Muhammad" are quite certain that this verse descended about the wilayah (regency) of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khum, and the traditions in our records on the subject are numerous and consecutively transmitted through the Imams of the holy posterity of the Holy Prophet, whose reporting is enough for us, and should also be so for the Muslims, because they alone are the truthful (sadiqin) as per verse 119 of al Tawbah (refer to Hafiz Abu Nu-aym; Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad; and Ibn Hajar in his Sawa-iq al Muhriqah, chap. 11, p. 90).
Ibn abi Hatim quotes Abu Sa-id Khudri and Antara; Ibn Marduwayh quotes Abdullah bin Masud and Abu Sa-id Khudri; Ibn Asakir quotes Abu Said Khudri; Abu Bakr Shirazi, Muhammad bin Talha Qarshi and Sayyid Ali al Hamdani quote Abdullah bin Abbas; Nizamuddin Nayshapuri quotes Abdullah bin Abbas, Abu Sa-id Khudri and Bara bin Azib, to say that this verse was revealed about the wilayah of Ali ibn abi Talib; and Sabbagh Maliki in Fusul al Muhimma; Badruddin Ayni in Umdatul Qari, Muhaddith Shirazi in Kitab al Arba-in; Shahabuddin Ahmad in Tawdih al Dala-il; and Mu-tamad Khan Badakhshani in Miftah al Nijat also confirm it.
Hafiz Abu Bakr bin Marduwayh in Manaqib quotes Abdullah bin Masud that during the life time of the Holy Prophet they used to recite this verse with Inna Aliyyan Mawla al mu-minin (Ali is the master of the faithful).
Asalaam un alaykum
Dear Amer
To refresh your memory, I quote from The SAHIH of Al Bukhari
(please refer to the chapter ‘The Words of the Patient’ “Get up and leave me,” in the ‘ Book on the Patient,’ in Sahih Al Bukhari vol.4 p.5).
According to Ubaydullah ibn Mas’ud, ibn Abbas said:
“ When the time of the death of The Messenger of Allah s.a. approached , there were many persons present in the house. Among them was Umar ibn Al Khattab. The Prophet s.a. said: ‘BRING TO ME WRITING MATERIALS SO THAT I MAY WRITE FOR YOU A DOCUMENT AFTER WHICH YOU WILL NEVER GO ASTRAY.’ Thereupon Umar said: ‘Certainly the Prophet has a strong fit of illness on him. There is the Quran with you and the book of Allah is sufficient for us.’ SOME OF THOSE PRESENT IN THE HOUSE DIFFERRED WITH UMAR and THERE AROSE A DISPUTE. There were SOME persons who said; ‘BRING THE WRITING MATERIALS to The Prophet s.a . so that he may write for you the document which will KEEP YOU FROM GOING ASTRAY after him.’ OTHERS, WHO WERE IN THE MAJORITY SUPPORTED UMAR. When HOT words began to be exchanged and THE QUARREL PROGRESSED in the prescence of the Messenger of Allah s.a. he said to them: ‘GET UP AND LEAVE ME.’ “
Furthermore in his Sahih, Al Bukhari, in ‘The Book of Jihad and Travelling’ in the chapter on “ The Permissibility of Deputation’ (vol 2, p 118.) it is narrated that ibn Abbas said;
“… ‘ The Thursday! Oh what an unfortunate Thursday it was!’ and then he (ibn Abbas) wept so much so that his tears made the ground wet. Then he said: ‘ On Thursday the illness of The prophet took a serious turn. He said bring to me a piece of paper so that I may write down for you a document that shall keep you from ever going astray.’ The persons who had gathered in the house began to QUARREL, although they ought not to have quarrelled in the prescence of the Prophet (s.a) They said: ‘THE PROPHET HAS TALKED NONSENSE’. The Prophet said. ‘LEAVE ME AS I AM. The condition that I am in is better than the condition you wish me to be in’….”
Amer.
It is not the issue ( although it is blindingly obvious ) as to what Mohammed was going to write. The more pressing issue is WHY did Umar deny him from writing it?
After several correspondences, in attempting to guage an answer from you for the question above it is seemingly clear, that your reply is insufficient and unconvincing, not only to myself I believe, but to the general seeker of knowledge or historian – regardless of race or religion.
I quote
‘If it was so important why didnt the prophet(pbuh)wright earlier in his days(pbuh)???????????????.
Why didnt he wright the QURAN ALSO???????????’
DONT JUDE ANY ONE ALLAH IS THE JUDGE,OTHER THAN ALLAH IS A KAFFIR’
You have also expressly stated that anyone who believes the Quran is NOT enough for us is a Kaafir?
Then what of those Sahabah who disagreed with Umar at the bedside of Mohammed when Umar pronounced his verdict, INSPITE of Mohammed’s command?
Are THEY kaafir as well?
You presume that The SPOKEN Request by THE FINAL MESSENGER OF ALLAH is not so important, whilst The Holy Quran says
‘YOUR COMPANION DOES NOT ERR NOR IS HE DECIEVED AND HE DOESN’T SPEAK FROM DESIRE OR WHIM. IT IS AN INSPIRATION INSPIRED, TAUGHT TO HIM BY ONE STRONG OF POWER. (53:2-5)
WHY did the MAJORITY of companions (Umar’s party) at the bedside of Mohammed say that ‘THE PROPHET HAS TALKED NONSENSE ’ ?
Does this PARTY of UMAR belong to the same company, crowd or troop of Muslims to which Allah has alluded to in the verses (below) which you use without sense, to defend your own position?
YUSUFALI: And thou dost see the people enter Allah's Religion in crowds,
PICKTHAL: And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops,
SHAKIR: And you see men entering the religion of Allah in companies,
The crowds, the troops, the companies of Yazid, Muawiah and Umar – are THESE The Muslims, the majorities to which you wish for the Muslim Ummah to align themselves with?
Muawiah also used The Quran out of context, when up against defeat at the battle of Siffeen, cleverly, like Umar HE also stated ‘ Let the Quran decide’ creating a DISPUTE, when Imam Ali had already decided with his own sword what was to be done.
Where is the Zikr of Muawiah in the Quran and where is the Zikr of Ali?
If Allah IS the Judge as you so rightly presume, then what as Umar doing making a Judgement infront of Allah’s Apostle?
If you yourself are QUESTIONING the importance Mohammed’s SPOKEN request, sorry, COMMAND ( he wasn’t asking – he was telling ) for pen and paper - then you may wish to answer these questions first;
You quote your own mother ( may Allah rest her soul ) saying ‘you leave some one that is passing way leaving them in peace’
Then do you think then decision of Umar was one that enabled Mohammed to feel PEACEFUL in LIGHT of his audacious denial of a command that was inspired by none other than Allah himself?
Were the other Sahabah wrong then for breaking the peace of Umar’s decision, by siding with the decision of Mohammed?
If the whole incident of the paper and pen was so unimportant as you suggest, then why did The Prophet expressly state that the document written would be one for which the community would be prevented from going astray?
Was the Prophet’s saying ‘leave me as I am…’ an implication to the fact that he HAD been talking nonsense (astaghfirullah)! and he wished to remain in that same state?(!)
Or was it a refutation of Umar’s ill Judgement and disobedience?
‘The condition that I am is better than the condition you wish me to be in’.
What can we assume about the position that Umar WANTED Mohammed s.a to be in? A state whereby he was unable to write or record for the people messages? The type of which would be composed to prevent them from straying?
WHY the QUARREL?
Why the HOT words?
And YOU argue over it’s importance.
Well my friend THE SAHABAH argued over it’s importance also.
So tell me Amer. Once again.
At the BATTLE of Jamal, who is your leader – Is it Ayesha or Ali?
At the DISPUTE by the bedside of The Prophet, who is your leader – is it Umar or Mohammed?
Would you GIVE the pen or would you DENY it?
MAJORITY Sahabah or MINORITY Sahabah?
Whose argument do YOU side with?
Please answer the question.
sallam
At the BATTLE of Jamal, who is your leader – Is it Ayesha or Ali?
A.who ever was khalifha at the time.
2.
sallam
Tod stop talking crap dude plse man,Immam Ali is more important to me than you dude,why becuase i will not talk on his behalf.
Tod how does mutha work/rules
Ali how does mutha work/rules.
Immam Alhedi is your immam A,prove it!
Umar r.a was a companion of the prophet (pbuh)true or false,did the prophet pray with him,go to battle with him and gave sallam to true or false.
Tod if the majority goes to war with the miniority the miniority will lose does mean islam is gone for ever.
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
Salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah Dear Brother
Habibi, the Incident of the Pen and Paper is one which has been exaggerated to such a great extent that one is easily bewildered when people of debate and arguementation bring it forward. Dr. Tijani has done a poor attempt in his book to show the Sunni view of things, rather, it seems that he was not acquainted with Sunni scholarship at all prior to writing this book. Allah knows best though and May He forgive our faults.
Before addressing the issue I would just like to clarify to Br. Hussain that I am giving the *Sunni* interpretation of this hadith, and note that the Ulema of Ahly Sunnah were and are aware of these hadith. So if a Shia brother comes up later on to you and states "Well this hadith states so and so" then make note of what I mentioned above. Coming to conclusions requires balancing out the evidence.
Firstly your post states:
Quote:
The incident is correct and there is no doubt about its authenticity, for it was cited by the Shii scholars and their historians in their books, as well as by the Sunni scholars and historians in their books. As I was committed to consider the incident, I found myself bewildered by Umar's behaviour regarding the order of the Messenger of Allah. And what an order it was! "To prevent the nation from going astray", for undoubtedly that statement would have had something new in it for the Muslims and would have left them without a shadow of doubt.
Yes there is no doubt about the authenticity of the event itself, although the view of Sayyidina Ibn Abbas that it was a "Calamity" is at most his personal view.
Secondly, the statement of the Prophet "prevent people from going astray" is an expression. It does not necessitate that if the order was not given, the people would be ruined, for if the Prophet of Allah saw such an injunction as necessary for the preservation of his Ummah he would not hesitate to write down what he had willed regardless of whatever anyone else thought.
Thirdly, in the hypothetical event that it was, as claimed above, a statement that "had something new in it for the Muslims and would have left them without a shadow of doubt" then what do the Shia make of the hadith of Ghadir Khum, after which they allege the Qur'anic verse "Today I have completed for you your religion" was revealed? For if the religion had been completed, and the divinely appointed Imam chosen, then the question of "leaving them without a shadow of a doubt" should not have arisen, nor is this a plausible explanation from the view point of Nuzul Al Wahy (Coming down of revelation).
Lastly, as the author states himself:
Quote:
"Now let us leave the points of view of the Shia, that is that the Messenger wanted to write the name of Ali as his successor, and that Umar realized this, so he prevented it."
So thus according to Al Tijani, the Shia viewpoint regarding this incident is that it was to appoint Sayyidina Ali as the Imam and leader of the Muslims after him. A few points should be noted:
1. What was the significance of the event of Ghadeer Khum, which the Shias say was witnessed by thousands? Was it not sufficient as an appointment?
2. If the original appointment of Sayyidina Ali was at Ghadir Khum, and if the Shias believe that he was to be appointed again by the Prophet during the Pen and Paper incident then how is this a statement that "had something new in it for the Muslims" as Tijani claimed, for it had nothing new but was the exact same thing "revealed" at Ghadir Khum.
3. If appointment of an Imam was a must, and if his appointment is divine in junction, then why did the Prophet abstain from from appointing Sayyidina 'Ali knowing full and well the consequences that would happen if he did not? Did the Prophet - God forbid - not deliver the message?
It was then stated:
Quote:
But can we find a sensible explanation to this hurtful incident which angered the Messenger so much that he ordered them to leave, and made Ibn Abbas cry until he made the stones wet from his tears and called it a "great disaster"? The Sunnis say that Umar recognized that the Prophet's illness was advancing, so he wanted to comfort him and relieve him from any pressure.
As a matter of fact it seems that the author of the above is not familiar with Hadith literature, for their are a number of hadith in which the Prophet was "angered" by specific actions.
In the Sunan of Abu Dawud, it is narrated from Amr ibn Abi Qurran:
-- Hudhaifa ibn al Yaman was in Mad'ain. He used to mention things which the apostle said to some people from among his Companions in anger. The people who heard from Hudhaifa would go to Salman Al Farisi and tell him what Hudhaifa had said and Salman would say, "Hudhaifa knows best what he says." Then they would go back to Hudhaifa and tell him, "We mention what you say to Salman but he neither testifies for you, nor falsifies you." So Hudhaifa came to Salman who was in his vegetable farm and said, "Salman, what prevents you from testifying for me from what I heard from the Prophet?" Salman replied, "The Prophet sometimes would become angry, and said in his anger somethings to some of his Companions; he would sometimes be pleased and said in pleasure something to some of his Companions. Would you not stop until you create love of some people in the hearts of some, and hatred for somepeople in the hearts of some, until you generate disagreement and dissension? You know that the Prophet said, 'If I abused any person of my people, or cursed him in anger then I am one of the children of Adam : I become angry as they do. He, Allah, has sent me as a mercy to the worlds and Oh Allah make my anger and abuse a blessing for them on the Day of Judgement.'
(end quote)
Sayyidi Qazwini, A Shia student and scholar said regarding the Prophets emotions, such as fear, anger and so forth:
-- As the Qur’an states in 4:16, the Prophet [s] is a human being, having all the human qualities we all have.
(end quote)
Thus, for the Prophet to get angry is "natural" and not against the concept of Shia infallibility.
Thus, whoever states that believing the Prophet got emotionally angry is disrespectful, then we will ask him to see the reply of Sayyid Qazwini.
The post then states:
Quote:
This type of reasoning would not be accepted by simple-minded people, let alone by the scholars. I repeatedly tried to find an excuse for Umar. but the circumstances surrounding the incident prevented me from finding an excuse. Even if I changed the words "He is talking nonsense" - God forbid - to "the pain has overcome him", I could not find any justification for Umar when he said, "You have the Qur'an, and it is sufficient being the Book of Allah."
Simple minded people do not understand much. As for the Ulema, then not only did they understand, but they explained the incident quote indepth without finding any fault in Sayyidina Umar.
Secondly, the statement "He is talking nonsense" was *not* uttered by Sayyidina Umar. This is an intentional manipulation aimed at degrading Sayyidina Umar. In Sahih Muslim, Bab Tarak Al Wasiyah, it states:
فقالوا إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يهجر
- And they said the Prophet is speaking no sense.
From above we can see that:
[1] It was said by a group of people
[2] No single person is identified as uttering the above statement.
So what does this statement mean and why was it uttered?
Imam Nawawi in his Sharh states:
( أهجر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ) هكذا هو في صحيح مسلم وغيره ( أهجر ) على الاستفهام وهو أصح من رواية : هجر ويهجر ; لأن هذا كله لا يصح منه صلى الله عليه وسلم ; لأن معنى هجر : هذى , وإنما جاء هذا من قائله استفهاما للإنكار على من قال : لا تكتبوا , أي لا تتركوا أمر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتجعلوه كأمر من هجر في كلامه ; لأنه صلى الله عليه وسلم لا يهجر
That those that wanted to *fulfill* the Prophets request without discussion asked those who were delaying, rhetorically, "Are you saying that the Messenger of Allah does not know what he is saying?" This, is perfectly acceptable and in accordance with the Arabic language.
The article then states:
Quote:
Did he know the Qur'an better than the Messenger of Allah, for whom it was revealed? Or was the Messenger of Allah - God forbid - unaware of what he was? Or did he seek, through his order, to create division and disagreement among the Companions - God forbid. Even if the Sunni reasoning was right, then the Messenger of Allah would have realized the good will of Umar and thanked him for that and perhaps asked him to stay, instead of feeling angry at him and telling them to leave his house.
The author of the above is confused regarding the order of the Prophet being revelation or it being something in which the Companions were given a choice. Sayyidina Umar thought it was something in which the Companions were given a choice, whereas Ibn Abbas thought otherwise, and as Imam Nawawi states:
فكان عمر أفقه من ابن عباس وموافقيه
- Umar possessed more Fiqh then Ibn Abbas.
Secondly, the Shia tend to forget the most authentic versions present in the Sahihayn and the Musnads in which the people state "Confirm it with the Prophet" at the end, thus they had settled in letting the Prophet decide whose ijtihad was correct - the group who said the Qur'an was enough and the Prophet was sick or the ones who thought otherwise -. However, by that time the Baraka had been lifted and the Prophet had decided not to tell. Similar was the case regarding the date of Laylatul Qadr.
Thirdly, the author assumes that it was only Sayyidina Umar who was told to leave. Rather, it was everyone arguing, which included both Sayyidina Umar and Sayyidina Ibn Abbas.
We turn this around and say: If the Prophet had wanted to convey a message, then what made him 'kick out' those people who agreed with him in writing down what he had wished? For the Prophet clearly said:
قال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم : قوموا
- Leave me!
He did not say "Leave me Umar" or "Leave me those who are stopping me" but told everyone to leave him.
The author then states:
Quote:
May I ask why did they abide by his order when he asked them to leave the room and did not say then that he was "talking nonsense"? Was it because they had succeeded in their plot to prevent the Prophet from writing the document, so that there was no need for them to stay any longer? Thus, we find them creating noise and difference in the presence of the Messenger, and divided into two parties: one agreeing with the Messenger of Allah about writing that document, while the other agreed with Umar "that he was talking nonsense".
We see clearly from above that the claimant is purposely trying to find fault with the Companions of the Prophet who thought they were given a choice in the matter. We say:
[1] As to the question why they abided by the Prophets order when he said 'Leave me' and not said antyhing in oppisition then we state 'Why did the peopel who wanted the Prophet to write not refuse and say "no Rasul Allah write for us'?
[2] The author forgets that the people at the end said "Confirm it with the Prophet" meaning they had left their personal opinions and had agreed to allow the Prophet to decide on which he said "leave me'. Thus, the final decision was that the Prophet *did not* wish to write anything down.
As for the claim that it was a "plot" then once again this is mere wording used to decieve people. If the people who had stated that the Prophet was ill really wished to cover up what the Prophet wanted to say, why would they state "Confirm it with the Prophet" at the end of their arguementation? Were they sure that the Prophet would refuse to write what he had wanted? And if so what is the proof of this?
Lastly, once again we reiterate that it was not Sayyidina Umar who stated "He is speaking nonsense". Rather, this was a rhetorical statement spoken by those who *wanted* the Prophet to write, towards those who thought they were given a choice in the matter.
Quote:
I think the majority of the Companions were with Umar, and that is why the Messenger of Allah found it useless to write the document, because he knew that they would not respect him and would not abide by the command of Allah by not raising their voices in his presence, and if they were rebellious against the command of Allah, then they would never obey the order of His Messenger.
See Oh People the clear lines "I think" for the thought process is very unique and strange. Some think based on prejudice and biased views, and Al Tijani seems to be that type of person, for he does not have any sort of evidence to prove that the "Majority" of the Companions were with Umar. How could they be when there were over 114,000 Companions of which only a dozen or so were probably present at this incident?
And then the author claims that the Prophet saw it as useless to convey a message through which people would remain on the right path. La Hawla Wa La Quwwata Ila Billah!
The manipulation of the Shias is astonishing - yet at the same time it is so easily noticeable that one wonders what they were thinking while making up these lies.
Do we remember the event of Ghadir Khum? The Shia claim that before it occured the following verse was revealed:
- - Oh Apostle! Deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you don't do it, you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people... (5:67)
And do we remember the inciident of the Prophets marriage to Sayyidah Zainab:
- - And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed. (33:37)
After these verses does this author dare say the Prophet did not convey a message due to the "people" for the "people were against him, according to the Shia, when he was about to proclaim Ali as the Imam at Ghadeer! The "people" were against him when he was too marry Zainab!
If what Tijani claims is true, that the Prophet was appointing Ali as his successor when Umar stopped him, then we ask:
[1] Why did the Prophet not to do so because of the peoples oppsoition although Allah had said, 'nd Allah will protect you from the people.'
Quote:
I ask Allah for forgiveness, and renounce what has been said in the presence of the holy Messenger, for how could I convince myself and my free conscience that Umar ibn al-Khattab was acting spontaneously, whereas his friends and others who were present at the incident cried until their tears wet the stones, and named the incident "the misfortune of the Muslims". I therefore decided to reject all the justifications given to explain the incident, and even tried to deny it so that I could relax and forget about the tragedy, but all the books referred to it and accepted its authenticity but could not provide sound justification for it.
Yes, and we ask Allah to forgive us also, and guide you for you have slandered the Companions with such deceit that it astonishes people as to how low one would stoop, how many bends one cuts, to degrade those who fought at Badr, and Uhud and Khandaq - who were driven out of their homes and their families killed - for the sake of the religion!
And then the author goes on with his usual exaggerations stating "others were present cried until their tears wet stones" and "named the incident...." but who are these others? For the only name mentioned was that of Sayyidina Ibn Abbas and no one elses!
Quote:
I tend to agree with the Shii point of view in explaining the incident because I find it logical and very coherent.
I still remember the answer which al-Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr gave me when I asked him, "How did our master Umar understand, among all the Companions what the Messenger wanted to write, namely the appointment of Ali as his successor- as you claim - which shows that he was a clever man?".
May Allah guide us - for the view presented by Sayyid Al Sadr is merely a supposition not backed up by explicit proof. It is odd that one would say Sayyidina Umar stopped the Prophet because he anticipated the appointment of Ali when:
[1] Ali had already been supposedly appointed.
[2] Some of the scholars of Ahly Sunnah actually stated that this was to appoint Abu Bakr!
Imam Nawawi states in his Sharh:
قال البيهقي : وقد حكى سفيان بن عيينة عن أهل العلم قبله أنه صلى الله عليه وسلم أراد أن يكتب استخلاف أبي بكر - رضي الله عنه
that Sufyan ibn Uyana stated that some of the Ahly 'Ilm stated that the Prophet intended to appoint Sayyidina Abu bakr as Caliph.
Imam Nawawi then states:
ثم ترك ذلك اعتمادا على ما علمه من تقدير الله تعالى ذلك
- The Prophet left this because he trusted in his knowledge of Allahs decree (to make Abu Bakr Caliph).
Further, the statement of the Prophet regarding Sayyidina Abu Bakr and his other statements at the end of his life and his appointment as leader of the prayers:
وقال : يأبى الله والمؤمنون إلا أبا بكر , ثم نبه أمته على استخلاف أبي بكر بتقديمه إياه في الصلاة
So how does one blindly say that it was to appoint Sayyidina 'Ali and so Umar opposed it? And how can this be when Sayyidina Ali himself denied sucha thing?
- Rizqullah Ibn Musa, Abdullah Ibn Rawh Al Madaini, Ismail Ibn Abi Al Harith all narrated from Shubabah Ibn Siwar: Shuaib Ibn Maymun told us, Husayn from Abdur Rahman from Al Shabi from Abi Wail: It was said to Ali Ibn Abi Talib," Would you not appoint your successor over us?" He said: "The Messenger of Allah did not appoint a successor, so I will not, but if Allah wished good for people he would gather them upon the best amongst them just as he gathered them upon the best after their Prophets death."
(Mustadrak by Al Hakim, Dalail Al-Nubuwa by Al-Bayhaq (7:223), Al Sunna by Ibn Abi Asim #1192)
(end quote)
Imam Nawawi states:
-- Qadhi Iyad said: Bakr the nephew of Abdul Wahid differed and claimed that he specified Abu Bakr, and Ibn Al-Rawandi said that he specified Abbas, Shia and Rafidites said he specified Ali, and these are false claims, an impudent forgery, and an audacious obstinacy against senses, for the companions unanimously agreed upon Abu Bakr and fulfilling his testament towards Umar and then fulfilling Umar’s testament towards a Shura, and no one differed with this regards, for neither Ali, nor Abbas, nor Abu Bakr claimed that there was a will (i.e from the Prophet image008.gif regarding one of them being a successor) at any point of time. Ali and Abbas have agreed upon all of this without a necessity preventing them from mentioning the will had it existed. The one claiming that any of them had a will then he had ascribed to the Ummah gathering upon what is wrong and continuing to do so. How is it permissible for any one from the people of Qibla (i.e Muslims) to ascribe to the companions that they would agree upon falsehood in all of these circumstances. Had it happened it would have been reported, for it is one of the important matters.
(end quote)
Finally, to shut the case we will give you the saying of Sayyidina Al Hasan ibn Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of Imam Zainul Abideen, and the senior member of the Ahly Bayt in his time who said:
قال فقال له الرافضي ألم يقل رسول الله عليه السلام لعلي من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه فقال أما والله أن لو يعني بذلك الإمرة والسلطان لأفصح لهم بذلك كما أفصح لهم بالصلاة والزكاة وصيام رمضان وحج البيت ولقال لهم أيها الناس هذا وليكم من بعدي فإن أنصح الناس كان للناس رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ولو كان الأمر كما تقولون إن الله ورسوله اختارا عليا لهذا الأمر والقيام بعد النبي عليه السلام إن كان لأعظم الناس في ذلك خطئة وجرما إذ ترك ما أمره به رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يقوم فيه كما أمره أو يعذر فيه إلى الناس
- A Rafidhi (a person who rejects the Khilafa of Abu Bakr and Umar) said to him (Al Hasan ibn Hasan), "Did not the Messenger of Allah say to Ali 'If i am Maula of someone , Ali is his Maula?'" He (Al Hasan) replied, "By Allah, if he meant the by that Amirate and rulership, he would have been more explicit to you in expressing that, just as he was explicit to you about the prayer, Zakat and Hajj to the House. He would have said to you, 'Oh people! This is your protector after me.' The Messenger of Allah gave the best good counsel to the people. If the business (of Imamat) had been as you say it is, and Allah and His Messenger had chosen Ali for this matter after the Prophet, then he would have been the person with the gravest error and wrong action since this would mean either that he ignored what the Messenger of Allah commanded him to do, or he would have made excuses to the people for having done so."
(Tabaqat Ibn Sa'd, Volume 5)
And Allah knows best
PS:
Imam Nawawi also states:
اعلم أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم معصوم من الكذب , ومن تغيير شيء من الأحكام الشرعية في حال صحته وحال مرضه , ومعصوم من ترك بيان ما أمر بيانه , وتبليغ ما أوجب الله عليه تبليغه , وليس معصوما من الأمراض والأسقام العارضة للأجسام ونحوها مما لا نقص فيه لمنزلته
That we know the Prophet is Masum, and we know that the Prophet delivered the Message whether in a state of good health or sickness. This was an obligation on him from Allah. So if the pen and paper was indeed a Wahy, then the Prophet would have never gone against conveying it regardless of who opposed it.
This is also proven by the fact that the Prophet lived on for three more days and did not return to the topic, although he specified much and gave instructions during those three days.
__________________
May My Soul be sacrificed for your soul, my beloved, my master Muhammad - peace and blessing upon you- !
روحي لروحك الفداء يا حبيبي يا سيدي محمد
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
Salam Amer,
You asked me if you could marry my sister in mut'a? Well, it's all up to her and my father of course. It has nothing to do with me really. It's similar to a permanent marriage, you would need permission from my father because my sister has never been married before (virgin). If my father permits and she accepts, then i guess she's all yours, brother. Nevertheless, i should remind you to be very careful with taking every privillege given by God, you must know its rules and conditions, and you must never misuse it in any way. Remember that God knows very well what's in your heart and mind. You and each one of us will be held accountable on the judgement day. If you have bad intentions like many brothers do (unfortunately), you would have to deal with consequences - in the hereafter certainly and this world too perhaps.
Many rich Saudi men marry girls in misyar, which is very similar to mut'a (as i explained in my previous post) except that the wife in misyar doesn't have the same equal rights as the husband does so the husband can end the marriage anytime he desires since there's no agreement needed between the two of them. With mut'a, the girl can demand some conditions from the man before the ejab kabul takes place and they both have to commit to what they have agreed on. Allah is All Knowing, All Wise.
As i said before, there are many people (mostly men) abuse the purpose of these types of marriage (mut'a and misyar). But then again, we find many permanent marriages being abused as well. The purpose of each privillege, whether but not limited to permanent or temporary marriages, given by God is pure and good but it's us (human beings) who abuse it out of ignorance. You and me know what Quran says about ignorant people. No excuses will be accepted whatsoever. So you better find out all about it before you proceed.
Ma'asalam
Amer,
Here's an interesting article about misyar marriage practiced in one of the biggest Sunni countries. So please don't point your finger at Shia for practicing mut'a. In both misyar and mut'a, there are pros and contras. This article is written against it. Please read it carefully.
--------------------------
Somayya Jabarti, Arab News
JEDDAH, 5 June 2005 — To some, it’s an unthinkable act; for others, it’s better than loneliness, but in what is otherwise a conservative culture, misyar marriage goes against the grain.
Misyar marriage is a legal alternative marital arrangement more Saudi men and women are using to offset prohibitive marriage costs and the stigma unmarried women face.
In a misyar marriage the woman waives some of the rights she would enjoy in a normal marriage. Most misyar brides don’t change their residences but pursue marriage on a visitation basis. Some marriage officials say seven of 10 marriage contracts they conduct are misyar, and in some cases are asked to recommend prospective misyar partners.
Most of the women opting for misyar either are divorced, widowed or beyond the customary marriage age. The majority of men who take part in such marital arrangements are already married.
“All the misyar marriage contracts I conduct are between men and women remarrying,” said Abu Fawaz, who’s been a marriage official for four years. “For a misyar marriage all you need is witnesses, her dowry and the acceptance of both parties. Usually the woman either has her own place or lives with her family. Most of the time the woman’s family knows while the man’s family is in the dark about it, be it his first wife or any other family members.”
Arab News surveyed 30 Saudi men and women aged 20-40 regarding misyar marriage. Over 60 percent of the men surveyed would consider misyar marriage for themselves with the majority of the respondents in their 20s. Those who would not consider it for themselves would not allow it for kin, be it sisters, brothers, sons or daughters. However, among the men who would consider it themselves, only two would find such a marriage acceptable for a female relative.
“If I allowed myself to marry another man’s sister or daughter ‘misyarically’ then it would only be fair to accept the same for my own female kin,” said Mohammad H. “It’s a double standard for men to accept it for themselves and other men but not the females. After all, if we all took up the same policy then who would we marry — each other?”
The reasons men gave for favoring misyar most often related to cost, with some asking “why not?” “I get to maintain all my rights, but I don’t have to take care of her financially and don’t even have to provide a house for her,” said 25-year-old Rayan Abdullah, an unmarried medical student at the city university. “It’s a great solution — isn’t it? It costs less than having a girlfriend — doesn’t it?” Or is it a male convenience in a male-dominated culture?
“What are the things most of us married men complain about?” asked Ghazi Ahmad, a 38-year-old husband and father of three children. “Don’t all of us constantly complain about the financial burdens, the lack of personal freedom — the routine patterns? Then this is the best marriage ever as far as I’m concerned. Married but not married — perfect.”
The opinions of women respondents about misyar marriage were a sharp contrast to the males’. More than 86 percent of the women 20-40 would not even consider such a marriage for themselves. Only four women — all in the over-40 category — would consider such marriages for themselves or relatives.
Most of the women respondents called it “legal prostitution” or objected to the lack of women’s rights in misyar marriages.
“I’m set in my ways,” said a 42-year-old bank manager who chose to call herself Muna Saad. “I live with my mother and couldn’t tolerate the idea of leaving her to live alone, and I’m comfortable financially. At the same time, I’d love to get married,” Muna said. “I also think it would be amusing for the roles to be reversed and sort of ‘own’ the man for a change and having him owe me rather than the other way around.”
Despite optimistic expectations, such marriages are not always blissful. Former and current misyar spouses said it can become a nightmare if pregnancy results from the union or if there are already children from former marriages. With most misyar marriages rooted in secrecy, the husband is only a ghostly figure occasionally seen. Once a child is conceived, the luxury of secrecy disappears.
“My second misyar marriage was doing fine despite my hawk of a first wife,” said Abu Abdul Rahman. “But that was only until my second wife got pregnant, and then the real nightmare began. She wanted to announce our relationship publicly because it put her in bad situations societally — you can’t be single and pregnant. I had to tell my family and my wife, and all hell broke loose. Now both marriages are on the rocks.”
There can be other unforeseen consequences of secrecy. “I’d been married misyarically for almost a year when members of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice paid me a terrible visit accusing me of prostitution,” said a 35-year old divorcee and mother of two who chose to call herself Warda.
“They wanted to drag me to the police station even though I kept shoving the marriage contract in their faces. I had to call my brother — with whom I wasn’t on speaking terms. It was terrible. I hated myself and hated all men — my children were 6- and 7-years-old.”
A social worker who frequents the courts denounced misyar marriage. “The courts are overflowing with problems from regular marriages regarding financial obligations that husbands ignore, custody problems and alimony,” she said.
“There is a horrible, growing problem in enforcing the law upon neglectful husbands and fathers. How can anyone legalize a procedure such as misyar marriage that will make room for more irresponsibility?” the social worker asked.
“Unfortunately, misyar marriage has made it easier for irresponsible, immature individuals to enter a relationship that is supposed to be based on credibility, reliability and respect,” said Abu Zaid, an elderly marriage official. “This isn’t the case. It’s treated as a temporary solution for lust. That’s not what marriage is all about. In regular polygamy all wives have exactly the same rights over the husband, be it financial, be it regarding time spent together or being public. Women think that misyar marriage is for their benefit when in fact on a long-term basis, they pay the price and not just from their pockets but from their emotions, as well.”
Many parents and children of misyar wives stated that they felt the woman as being sold short in such a marriage. Parents mostly said that the only reason they accepted the situation was in recognition of their daughters as adult women with their own needs and their right to respond to such needs. “I begged my divorced daughter not to marry a suitor who proposed a misyar marriage,” said Abu Fahda. “At the end, I gave in because I didn’t want to be the reason for her having an unlawful relationship with a man. I’m an adult, and I know she has her needs, but I’d be lying if I said that I have any respect for this stranger who comes to my house for intimacy with my daughter. I even have trouble looking her in the face,” he said. “My neighbor’s niece was married misyarically for a while, and then when the husband was done with her he just left her — just like that.”
Abu Fahda’s grandchildren share his sentiments — especially sadness. “I don’t know who this man is — this man who comes to our house and spends time with my mother,” said the 6-year-old boy. “He’s not my father, and he can’t be her husband because fathers and husbands live with their families.”
For sociologists, misyar marriage is a head-scratcher. “What are we telling others about our self-worth, and what are we telling our children about the significance and meaning of family?” asked Dr. Nahid L. “Marriage is about in-depth relationships — not just copulation. Why are more women willing to forgo what is theirs just to be ‘called’ or falsely feel married?”
When marriage was created it was to ensure that no one gets anything for free. “Each, husband and wife, has duties and rights — and even in regular marriages women are already taken for granted. Marriage isn’t just about sex. Misyar marriage is only going to make things worse as far as I’m concerned.”
Some say society msut consider other alternatives. “If they want to really solve the issue of unmarried women instead of making it easier for men to marry repeatedly and cheaply, they should make it easier for Saudi women to marry non-Saudis,” said a school teacher.
“Years ago in college, I overheard one of my son’s friends talking about marriage and girls, and he a