I saw Episode III last night with The Spork, who disliked it more than I. The most maddening thing about the recent Start Wars movies -- and recent sci-fi movies in general -- is that they don't even make sense within the context of their own fantasy. The rest of the post contains spoilers, but should I bother warning you? Who hasn't seen it yet?
First off, the pre-natal care in Star Wars is atrocious. How could they not know that Padme was carrying twins? Don't they have ultrasounds? Plus, medical care in general is pretty bizarre. If you fall into lava and get dismembered, don't worry, we'll fix you right up; if you "lose the will to live" and give birth to twins, you're doomed. Haven't they heard of therapy?
Second, everything looks too high-tech. One of the coolest things about the original series was that the spaceships looked like someone built them in their garage. The Millenium Falcon was sweet because it was falling apart. All the ships in the new series look like they were designed by Dr. Seuss.
Third, the war-fighting just doesn't make sense. Why would you ever attack on the ground when you've got spaceships in orbit? Just bombard everything -- particularly when you're fighting giant ewoks with crossbows. (Were the little people too busy filming Willow 2?) Plus, why would Jedi ever get into a spaceship? They're nigh-invincible on the ground, but helpless against vacuum. The easiest time to kill a Jedi is when he's in space, so naturally they spend all their time flying around in tiny helpless spaceships. Why? Because...
Fourth, Jedis are stupid. The Light Side is supposed to eliminate all attachment to anything? Sounds like nihilism. The Dark Side seems much more practical, and if its users weren't murderous maniacs they could actually craft a much more just and useful social structure than any Light Sider could. The problem with Force-users in general is that they're so individually powerful that it's hard for the political process to balance their influence. Philisophically, I'd rather have a Dark Lord of the Sith for Chancellor than some annoying Jedi always pontificating at me; practically, Force-users would be way too powerful to co-exist with regular humans. Further, why was the Light Side so loyal to the Senate and the Republic? I thought they weren't supposed to care about anything. Whatever; it's stupid.
Fifth, George Lucas cannot write dialogue. Everyone knows this. I could ad lib more poignant and humorous scenes opposite a plaster bust of Adam Weishaupt. Maybe Lucas isn't doing as much drugs as he was in the 70s. That being the case, the prequels could have been done as silent movies with letterboards flashing on screen to indicate speech. I'm pregnant! Cue dramatic organ music. That's great! Dun dun dun! Computer generated actors could be used to give the characters a more lifelike appearance.
Sixth, where was Jar Jar Binks? We only got one tiny shot of him walking in a parade near the end. Holy crap, he should have been heeling Anakin every step of the way for a little hilarious comic relief.
Seventh, the part at the end with Darth Vader screaming "Noooooooo!" with his arms in the air was really stupid. C'mon.
Eighth, Qui-Gon Jinn was the first Jedi to become a ghost, but we never see him in Episodes IV through VI? That makes total sense. Plus, if it's something you have to learn, who teaches Anakin/Vader in Episode VI?
Ninth, the whole lightsaber fighting gimmick is done wrong. Robots can't use lightsabers, or at least not effectively against a Jedi. The reason Jedi can use lightsabers and other people can't is, supposedly, because they can use the Force to look slightly into the future to see what their opponent is going to do. They can block blasters not because their arms are fast, but because they know in advance where the blaster bolt is going to be. Robots can't use the Force, so they can't compete with a Jedi using lightsabers.
Tenth, eh, whatever. Time to go watch the originals again. I'm disappointed, but no more than I expected to be.
General Grievous is not a robot. If you watch just before he died, you would've seen eyes behind his mask. The part in his chest that Obi-wan shoots is the remains of his organic body.
Apparently the Clone Wars cartoons on Cartoon Network (season one is available on DVD now) contain more info.
One thing I noticed was that the first 3 minutes belie the claims that Anakin's conversion seems forced. I assumed that there was more than the couple of conversations we saw in the movie, that the Emperor was grooming Anakin for an extended time, and what little I've seen so far of the cartoons back this up.
Yeah, I think Lucas pandered to the SW goons on this one -- the people who hate Jar Jar, obssess over anything remotely SW related and have thus seen all the canon (including the cartoons), and really don't care how bad the acting or dialog is because they've been numbed to it over time.
Just a LITTLE too analytical here. If you over analyze any movie - I don't care how well done - you are going to find plot holes.
I actually agree with you on many of your points (I joked with Mrs. Director that it is amazing that a race that has faster-than-light travel doesn't have ultrasound), but I think the key is whether you are able to suspend your belief for the time you are in the theater. For me, I sat back and was vastly entertained for the two hours, the bad lines and small plot holes aside.
If you go somewhere "looking for a fight", you are going to find one.
MW: I really only agree with you on points 5 and 7. Though on those, I agree strongly.
DM: Right on.
It would have been nice if the movie somehow emphasized the degree to which Anakin's fall, and the subsequent fall of the Jedi, was the fault of the Master Jedi on the Council. It was pretty clear to everyone, it seemed, that Anakin was having serious problems, and yet no Jedi did ANYTHING to help the situation. They could have tried to help Anakin, or arrest him, or sequester him, or banish him, or at least keep a closer eye on him to make sure he doesn't kill any babies. Mace Windu kept talking about how little he trusted Anakin, and yet the Council gave Anakin all this responsibility in spying on Palpatine-- a task that would place together two incredibly powerful, untrustworthy, ambitious people.
Other than that, my moderate expectations for the movie were mostly satisfied and, in some respects, exceeded. Let's not overlook the incredible score by John Williams. In particular, the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin at the end had a very impressive, effective musical theme.
Ultrasound aside, Anakin couldn't sense she had twins?
The first rule of telling a story is knowing what to leave out to weave an entertaining and coherent story. George Lucas didn't have the first clue when it came to the prequels...he believed his own press reports too much.
Meh... Star Wars never has and never will be of as much value to me as Star Trek. I was a Star Trek fan since grade school... and will be for the rest of my life. I just wish Paramount.. and to a greater extent Rick Berman.. would give Star Trek a rest for a while. It isn't gonna get any better than the glory days of TNG until something of the same caliber comes along. As it is, it seems they're making movies and series just to make movies and series. That's wrong.
Mark: You didn't hear? Paramount's decided to lay down the license and give it a rest for a few years, following the demise of Enterprise.
And I agree, TNG was the high mark of the series, by far.
Cypren: I didn't hear that such a decision was final. Glad to see it, though.
"Second, everything looks too high-tech. One of the coolest things about the original series was that the spaceships looked like someone built them in their garage. The Millenium Falcon was sweet because it was falling apart. All the ships in the new series look like they were designed by Dr. Seuss."
Oppressive, badly run empires tend not to crank out shiny new things with improving tech. They tend to be full of decaying, patched together old tech. Just like a real-life evil empire that existed when those original movies came out.
"Fourth, Jedis are stupid. The Light Side is supposed to eliminate all attachment to anything? Sounds like nihilism."
This part bugged me the most. The early movies were written like medieval Christian stories: There was no question in the minds of the good guys that they were the good guys. The only question was whether they would have enough faith to channel the divine power and overcome evil. Militarily, everything hinges on a handful of super-powerful warrior, called knights. A spinoff story could have had them searching for the Holy Grail or launching a crusade.
The modern Star Wars movies leave all that behind. Now the Republic is a secular modern society, trying to balance power between individuals and the state, with any thought of religion completely banished. But the medieval fantasy breaks down without any sense of a public religion. The good guys believe in the Force, remember? Yet now nobody seems to believe in the Force, except the Jedi themselves, who keep it to themselves.
The modern Star Wars movies are completely different: The Force is no longer a global power for good that everyone should recognize and respect. Instead it's an ability that individuals can develop and use any way they wish, like Chi flow in a Kung Fu movie.
It's an Oriental idea: Enlightenment is a personal goal that brings physical capabilities with it. In the latest movie, Yoda says a few lines about greed and the evils of attachment that could have come from a course on basic Buddhism. It's no mystery that Anakin rejects the Jedi, because they have nothing substantive to offer beyond endless self-control and self-mortification. The only reason not to go to the dark side is personal: It'll be bad for Anakin; how it will affect anyone else is inconsequential.
The only character in these modern movies with any sense of a larger morality is Padme. She has a line in II about how Anakin is drifting towards dictatorship in his political thoughts. Then she rejects him at the end of III after his fall, but still can't explain why.
Even at that pivotal scene, she can't express her horror in terms larger than her own emotions. She knows that she personally doesn't like Anakin killing children, but that's as far as it goes. Within the medieval setting of the earlier movies, the correct response would have been obvious: "You have sinned grievously before God," or its nearest Force equivalent.
But in Padme's world, nobody believes in God, or the Force, or anything larger than small-scale personal attachments. We never understand why the Republic exists at all. What does the Republic believe in? What are its values? Why should anyone bother defending it?
Put simply, in the early movies Lucas believed in good and evil as large, meaningful ideas. He has since lost that belief. Now, like most American liberals, he sees no great causes worth fighting for, no nations worth supporting. He sees only small-scale personal morality, based on small-scale personal relationships.
Perhaps this explains why the later movies are so uninspiring. Luke Skywalker wanted to save the Galaxy from evil, which was an inspiring, uplifting theme. In the modern movies, nobody seems to know why the Galaxy is even worth saving.
BB: As usual, I agree.
Rick: If Grievous isn't a robot that certainly wasn't made clear in the movie. Plus, he'd still have to use the Force to use lightsabers, much less four of them.
Ken: Actually, the Empire's ships were shiny and new in IV through VI... but the rebels' weren't. They were Old West style, and I liked it. The prequels lacked style.
Nick and BB: Upon further reflection, perhaps the Republic fell because the Senate and the Jedi were too weak and equivocating to put a leash on Anakin when they had the chance. Lucas doesn't make this point directly, but it's pretty evident that the "good" side lost because they didn't have the courage of their convictions (even if their convictions were pretty light-weight).
I often find it quite funny when people approach a sci-fi movie/series of movies (be it Star Wars or Star Trek) through the eyes of their political, religious, and social ideologies. They apply real-world sensibilities to fantasy situations... and then get quite disappointed when the movie doesn't live up to those expectations.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I go to the movies to see unreality... not reality. There are definitely sci-fi movies I don't like (including a few Star Trek ones)... but I don't dislike them because the characters, plots, and storylines don't fit my views on politics, society, and religion.
Grievous is a cyborg. He's obviously got skin around his eyes, and he has living organs that Kenobi fries after he opens up his rib "cage" armor. Early in the movie, he's coughing and wheezing. Though this isn't explained, the coughing is the result of getting his rib armor crushed by Mace Windu at the end of the CLONE WARS cartoon series.
Though I don't know how much of an organic brain Grievous has, he apparently has a stong connection with the Force. I thought he was a pretty cool villain and wished that we had seen more of him.
As for why attack on the ground when you have space ships, why does the US military attack on the ground when we have airplanes? Because we don't want to DESTROY the targets, we want to CAPTURE them.
The whole Jedi outlook on things is terribly inconsistent. I like Ben's ideas and will definitely have to spend some time considering them.
Kenobi says "Only Sith think in absolutes", then ten minutes later says "Palpatine is Evil!". Uh, isn't "Evil" an absolute?
For the tech, I think that the Empire socialized the manufacturing that it needed for star destroyers, TIE fighters, and Death Stars. This was top of the line tech, used to keep the Empire on top. The rest of the galaxy slowly fell into decay, and even the ships used by the rebels built by companies in defiance of the Empire (like the X-Wing fighters) usually looked rough from the conditions the rebels are in. Constant fighting, running, or hiding. Little chance for good maintenance. Lack of new spare parts so rebuild the damaged ones. Landing in swamps and then leaving it there until some weird little green guy pulls it out weeks later. Etc.
The Jedi totally blew it with Anakin. I've been saying "It's all Yoda' fault!" since Episode I, and nothing I've seen since has changed my mind.
You're all missing the same thing the Jedis miss. Anakin is supposed to bring balance to the Force. He does this by wiping out the Jedis and the Sith over the course of the 6 movies. The only one left at the end is Luke, and he's not really a Jedi. The Sith are evil, while the Jedi are basically bureaucrats and train future Sith like Count Dooku.
This set of 3 movies is a Greek tragedy. No matter what most of the characters do, they advances causes they does not wish to. Whether or not this is a type of story you like is a subjective question.
Are you serious about wishing Jar Jar was in the movie? I'm pretty sure that I'm not a SW goon, I just cringed every time he spoke in the other movies.
As for the "NOOOOOOOO!!!!!" That was my favorite part of the movie. It's the new "Mos Eisley space port. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." Next time you mess up or something goes wrong, just quote Vader using the deep, pained voice of James Earl Jones, and you will feel much better.
I think threre's something missing between episode III and episode IV. may be an episode III "B" should explain us how did the twins live their childhood, and How did Vader discover them and kidnap Leia.
Rod: Vader kidnaps Leia? That never happens.
This insight from a beliefnet.com article just made me laugh:
adamj: That's a great observation.