Thanks a lot, Barbara Boxer, for wasting my money holding pointless, symbolic debates about non-existent election fraud.
In a drama that was historic if not suspenseful, Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones (news, bio, voting record), D-Ohio, and Sen. Barbara Boxer (news, bio, voting record), D-Calif., formally protested that the Ohio votes "were not, under all known circumstances, regularly given." That, by law, required the House and Senate to convene separately and debate the Ohio irregularities.Boxer, Tubbs Jones and several other Democrats, including many black lawmakers, hoped the showdown would underscore the problems such as missing voting machines and unusually long lines that plagued some Ohio districts, many in minority neighborhoods, on Nov. 2.
Blah blah blah. Is it any wonder that most people think politics is a joke? Vote or die! They're big on nonsense symbolism, and small on useful action.
Democratic leaders distanced themselves from the effort, which many in the party worried would make them look like sore losers. Bush won Ohio by 118,000 votes and carried the national contest by 3.3 million votes, and Kerry himself — meeting with troops in the Middle East — did not support the challenge.
So it was pointless because the results weren't going to be overturned by a majority Republican Congress, and it was even more pointless because the symbolism was anorexic.
Supporters of the challenge repeatedly said they had no desire to overturn the election. Many who spoke in favor of the protest even voted against it in hopes of clarifying what they said was the real issue — the need to make the country's voting systems fairer and to prevent fraud.
Meanwhile, how's the national debt doing? How's Social Security reform going? How's the debate on the President's judicial nominees? How's the investigation of the UN? Isn't there anything substantial that our legislators can spend their time doing, rather than forcing debates on issues that even proponents won't vote for?
Seriously! It's their focus on nonsense things instead of the real, important issues that absolutely drives me nuts. But, keep in mind that Boxer is a #1 enemy of fetuses. She's got her priorities in a twist.
Funny thing is that people keep voting her and that other idiot Feinstein in office. Californian voters are a joke!
You are missing the point of their challenge. As in 2000, it was again most if not all members of the Congressional Black Caucus filling the challenge. They were not attempting to change the outcome of the election this time, but mearly call attention to what many see as the irregularities of votes cast in Ohio. Whether you perceive it or not, there are efforts across the country to discourage and prevent some people from voting, and this needs to stop. I believe a saw a post from you, Michael Williams, the night of or after the election. In it you posted something to the effect that you knew Bush would carry Ohio when you heard there were 8 hour lines to vote. You didn't believe Democrats would have the conviction to stick around as long as Republicans to cast their vote. No one should have to wait 8 hours to express their vote. Is this DeMOCKracy?
MyBoysCanSwim, nobody *has* to wait 8 hours in line to vote. They can always vote absentee if they know they won't be able to rearrange their schedule to go vote. They can roll out of bed and show up first thing in the morning at the polls and be first in line. They can throw up their hands and go home. They can come back later. They can ask their fellow voters nicely if they can cut in line, if they have dire circumstances, and I bet a lot of people would let them take cuts. Nobody's making them stand in line, "Vote Or Die" rhetoric notwithstanding.
I promised I'd never move back to California while we have minor children, but I almost wish I could move back just to vote for Boxer's opponent next time she's up for re-election.
MBCS: No one should have to wait in line? Why not? Is having short lines a "right" now too? Maybe we should conscript more "volunteers" to work the polling places.
I repeat: no one should have to wait in line EIGHT HOURS. I'm sure in your predominantly white precinct you waited 20 or 30 minutes tops. I'm also sure if you had to wait 8 hours to vote you would scream bloody murder about it. Precincts with long lines were predominantly minority neighborhoods. Voting is a right, and it should be made as simple and easy as possible to encourage people to vote. If you don't agree, then you are part of the problem. Buy your own admission, the long lines in minority Ohio precincts helped Bush win. It would seem it is all fair to you, as long as your guy comes out on top.
MBCS: People in Afghanistan seemed eager to wait in long lines to vote. I didn't have to wait because I voted early via electronic voting, as anyone could have done. Plus, my precinct isn't predominantly white, despite your racist assumption. Plus plus, voting is not a right", although it shouldn't be harder for one person than for another.
It should be simple, I agree, and I don't like waiting in lines. But if it's not simple, or there are lines, that doesn't mean anything nefarious is going on. If long lines helped Bush, it's only because some voters are more motivated than others. Besides, Democrats have a long history of illegally holding polling places open and pullin other election-day tricks, so don't act like an accident like this (if there even was one) is somehow advantageous only to one side.
Perhaps I am mistaken, and forgive my assumption about the neighborhood you live in. Never the less, not everyone has the opportunity to vote electronically as you did. Yes, they could vote by mail, but this requires going through the pages of propositions that the average person almost needs an attorney to decipher. Many people do not finish determining how they plan to vote until the day of the election. It is inexcusable to have an 8 hour wait to vote on election day, and comparing it to voting in a third world country having elections for the first time is pretty sad. We are suppose to be the worlds leading democracy, we should start acting like it.
And your accusation of Democrats "illegally" holding polling places open only further prooves my point. I'm not sure what "illegal" activity you are refering to. Are you saying they still had a line of voters at closing time, and continued to be open to allow those in line to vote? What a crime! I myself would like to see our country encourage people to vote and participate in our democracy, but it seems you feel differently.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe YOU said the long lines in Ohio would only help Bush, saying democratic voters would not stick it out for the eight hours in the rain. So don't pretend it wasn't advantageous to your president.
MBCS: I'm sure it was advantageous to our president. Democratic voters tend to be more fractuous, less committed, and less informed. Those are the people who would benefit our country by not voting, and it's just a lucky coincidence (or is it?) that they also happen to vote Democrat.
I'm not sure what the complexity of propositions has to do with anything... are you suggesting that voters should only attempt to "decipher" them in the voting booth? Perhaps that's why the lines are so long....
As for comparing the situation to that in Afghanistan, I wasn't. I was simply saying that those third-worlders you apparently despise appear to be much more motivated than are Democratic voters here in America.
I'm sure that would be your racist assumption of why the long lines would help your president. Mine would be that the lines are a new form of poll tax. If you can't afford to wait in line, you can't vote. When there are fewer voting machines in Democratic minority precincts than in Republican precincts it is going to mean more votes for Bush.
Third wolders I despise? Nice of you to make that rediculous assumption. I'm not the one dropping bombs on them.
Is this your model of democratic, "motivated" voters?
http://www.globalecho.org/view_article.php?aid=1806
It is absurd to describe Afghanistan as a “free country”. The nation remains under effective US occupation, with 20,000 US and allied troops and a NATO-led International Security Assistance Force of 7,000 troops based in Kabul. Over the last three years, US soldiers have roamed the country at will and openly flouted basic democratic rights, arbitrarily detaining and torturing thousands of Afghans. Under such conditions, it is impossible to hold any genuinely democratic election in Afghanistan.
Washington’s neo-colonial control of the country rests on a network of relations with regional militia leaders and warlords that assisted the US military in overthrowing the previous Taliban regime in 2001. Many of the more prominent presidential candidates, such as Qanooni, are connected to these petty despots or, like General Rashid Dostum, are warlords themselves. Qanooni, Dostum and others have all served in Karzai’s administration and have close relations with the US.
The Human Rights Watch briefing paper documented the coercive methods by which these militia leaders intimidated political rivals and bullied or bribed voters to support their candidates. The report concluded that “in most parts of the country Afghans told Human Rights Watch that they are primarily afraid of the local factional leaders and military commanders—not the Taliban insurgency.” As it turned out there were very few insurgent attacks on polling booths on Saturday. No one, however, has reported on the extent to which voters were bludgeoned into voting one way or another by various local thugs.
Karzai is no exception. While his own political base among Pashtun tribes in the south and east of the country is limited, he has the backing of the biggest warlord of them all—the White House and the Pentagon. Karzai has a close association with Washington stretching back to the 1980s when he liaised with the CIA and other US officials on behalf of one of the anti-Soviet Mujaheddin groups led by Seghatullah Mojadeddi. Over the past three years, he has proven himself as a loyal and pliable political tool for the White House.
With Washington’s backing, Karzai’s election campaign has consisted of bribing and bullying various tribal and militia leaders into ensuring their followers voted for him. A recent Los Angeles Times article cited the example of the town of Jaldak where a meeting of elders decided a month ago to back Karzai and sent out their orders. Qanooni’s campaign manager Haji Mohammed Hashim complained to the newspaper that those who had wanted to vote for his candidate had been harassed by local police and election officials at the polling booths.
MBCS: Uh, are you saying that we should have installed an Afghan president who doesn't have ties to the US and isn't friendly to us? That sounds counterproductive. Plus, don't neglect to mention how much better off Afghanistan is now than it was on 9/11/01. Sure there's a ways to go, but be patient!
You appear to despise those in the third world, since you don't want to do the one thing that will help them most: remove their tyrants. Sometimes that requires bombs. See also: the American Revolution.
Hey SwimmmingBoys,
You sound like you're from Europe or Australia. Only someone with your intellect could originate from an area like that.
And yes, you're right. Michael Williams is the one person responsible for dropping bombs on Third World countries. In fact, he has his own jet with which to fly out at all hours of the night. By golly, I would wager that he even builds his own JDAMs in his garage, then straps them to his plane, and then bombs Afghanistan!
MyBoysCanSwim, your argument is flawless. Could it be that the Afghanistan people actually talked to you and told you to speak for them? Could it be that all the tortured prisoners now experiencing dastardly freedom called you on your cell phone and asked you to denounce their liberation? I'd really love to know. Tell me stories of how you've interviewed Iraqis, Pashtuns, Bedu, and Afghanis to get this fabulous viewpoint of yours! I shan't sleep!
Love,
DeoDuce
Deo: I'm not sure what point you are making, beyond needless sarcasm and insults. I never said Michael Williams was responsible for dropping bombs on Afghanistan. So as long as we are trading mindless insults: FOAD.
Michael: I appreciate your honesty in admitting we haven't given the people of Afghanistan the Democracy we promised them. I for one am dismayed we have not succeeded in this endeavor. I don't see how you would come to the conclusion that I "despise" the third world, beyond another insult to be hurled my way for disagreeing with you, but whatever.
Back to the original topic of your post: Boxer's protest was not about changing the results of this presidential election, but about reforming our democracy to make it stronger. Somehow you feel the following questions are "pointless":
Why did voters in Ohio wait hours in the rain to vote? Why were voters at Kenyon College, for example, made to wait in line until nearly 4 a.m. to vote because there were only two machines for 1300 voters?
Why did poor and predominantly African-American communities have disproportionately long waits?
Why in Franklin County did election officials only use 2,798 machines when they said they needed 5,000? Why did they hold back 68 machines in warehouses? Why were 42 of those machines in predominantly African-American districts?
Why did, in Columbus area alone, an estimated 5,000 to 10,000 voters leave polling places, out of frustration, without having voted? How many more never bothered to vote after they heard about this?
Why is it when 638 people voted at a precinct in Franklin County, a voting machine awarded 4,258 extra votes to George Bush. Thankfully, they fixed it – but how many other votes did the computers get wrong?
Why did Franklin County officials reduce the number of electronic voting machines in downtown precincts, while adding them in the suburbs? This also led to long lines.
In Cleveland, why were there thousands of provisional ballots disqualified after poll workers gave faulty instructions to voters?
And before you bring any up, if there are Republican concerns about their votes not being counted, they are equally valid. It's not about Republican or Democrat to me. Its about having everyone having an equal opportunity to vote, and everyones vote being counted equally. I fail to see how anyone in our country could have a problem with this, unless they truly hate democracy.
Hey SwimmingBoys,
Needless sarcasm? No really, I want to know who you have interviewed to get your "Facts." To make such strong statements such as you have made me think that you MUST have talked to at least one or two people from the region who resent the "Us occupation."
And, to the contrary, in one of your previous statements you said "I'm not the one dropping the bombs," which places responsibility of the war on one, singular individual's shoulders. Thus, in your statement and grammatically speaking, you are implying that Michael Williams is the individual performing the act of bombing Afghanistan. It's all in the clause.
FOAD, right back atcha, matie! I'm glad we're friends.
So answer my question. Who have you talked to from Afghanistan and/or Iraq? I really can't wait to hear your answer.
Michael Williams is the one who steered the conversation to Afghanistan with his statement about "movivated voters" over there, so you might ask your friend these questions. The only "facts" I provided about Afghanistan were provided by the article linked to with my above post. I really don't have much else to say to a rude ass like yourself. Oh yeah-- except: get bent.
MBCS: I don't recall mentioning "movivated" anything, but anyway, try to be civil.
Election difficulties like the ones you mention are nothing new. It happens now, and it has happened in every past election, and they'll always happen in the future. I do think they're pretty inconsequential. For real examples of verified fraud, just do some research on Democrats.
Oh so you have no facts to back up your opinion, except what you're spoon fed by the mainstream media. Try having half your family from the Middle East. They know the real story.
A rude ass? How intelligent of you. I am impressed. Really, I am.
Your obsession with sexual matters is duly noted.
So, SwimmingBoys, how come you don't provide any real contact information? Scared the Rude Ass Brigade might come after you and your links?
Do you form all of your opinions based on what someone spoonfeeds you? I'm interested to know. Also, what country are you from?
England? Australia? Canada?