I wrote a lot about the Bible and money, and now I'd like to write a bit about how people often conflate their views of God and money. Paul wrote to his young disciple Timothy:
1 Timothy 6:10Note that there's nothing wrong with money itself, but rather with the love of money. Jesus also recognized the competition for worship between God and money.For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Luke 16:13Money is a powerful tool because it represents the value we create for the community around us and it can be exchanged with other people to get them to do what we want. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't know how to build a couch, so when I need a couch I work, get paid, and then trade my money (which represents my labor) to someone else in exchange for a couch (the product of their labor). It's an excellent system, and far more efficient than direct bartering. After all, I build satellites, and it's hard to trade satellites for food or housing. Money that is gained dishonestly is obviously tainted, but money that is earned through honest labor is worthy of respect because it represents that the earner has contributed to the well-being of his fellow man."No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."
So money is a tool, and as such it increases the capabilities of its owner. I can't drive a nail into a plank with my bare hands, but I can do it easily if I've got a hammer. The reason people tend towards loving money should be pretty obvious: we tend to love ourselves quite a bit, and we take an immense amount of pride in the wonderful things we can accomplish. Love of money is fundamentally love of self. Look at what I've earned, look how powerful I am, look at everything I can accomplish.
People who love money tend to view God in the same way: as a tool. They think that if they say the right words (prayer) or act in certain ways (e.g., going to church) then God will do what they want him to do. To many people, religion is all about manipulating God into giving them what they want. Why? Because at the root they love themselves, and even their religion is all about them. These people see God as a genie in a bottle and think that if they rub him the right way he'll pop out and grant their wishes. After all, that's how money works.
Loving money -- and the power it brings -- warps our view of God. Rather than loving God and seeking a relationship with him, we try to enslave him. Rather than realizing that he is the master and we are the servants, we reverse the roles. Unlike money, which is a tool, God has his own purposes and his own desires, and he wants to use us to accomplish them, not vice versa.
So instead of valuing money as a tool to be used towards loving ends (e.g., feeding our families), we value money as an end in itself for the power it gives us; instead of loving God as a relational end in itself, we see him only as a tool. Again, the roles are exactly reversed: money takes the place of God and becomes an idol, and God takes the place of money as a tool. As with most modern idolatry, love of money is all about putting ourselves at the top of the pile because we trust ourselves more than we trust God. We think that if we've got enough power we can accomplish whatever it is we need to do, and we won't have to trust God for anything. Unfortunately, as they say, you can't take it with you.
I don't believe in "God". I don't love money.
Money is nice to have and sadness can come from not having any, but it's not something to be loved or put ahead of family and friends.
Mark: Loving money is only one (common) manifestation of self-worship.
.. okay.. but I thought this was about money?
M: It is; I was just trying to help you see how the point may apply to you, despite your lack of love for money.
I don't think any form of "self-worship" applies to me.
I'm a very generous person, I don't go to extraordinary lengths to promote myself (ego), to make myself look like a member of a boy band (vanity), and I am not a control freak (power/greed).
Got any other forms of self-worship?
Mark--Thinking that you are so perfect that no form of "self worship" could possibly apply to you would be a form of "self worship";)
Rob: A big "thumbs up" for the "bon mot."
No, I honestly want to know what other forms of self-worship there are... so I can see if I fit them or not.
When I asked for others, I was really asking for some.
RS: You hit it right on the head.
Mark: Familiar with the story of the rich young ruler? Your comments sound strikingly familiar.
Check it out in Matthew 19: 16 - 22. Good reading, there.
Also, the entire chapter of Proverbs.
Should have all of the answers you're looking for.
No I am not familiar with that story, nor would I take the metaphors, hyperbole's, and parables of the Bible as anything dictated or blessed by "God".
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms." -- Albert Einstein
Point out to me other forms of self-worship without the Bible thumping.
People need not believe in God and the Bible to be good people.
Mark, you're fun to have around man. It's like constant entertainment
Your quote:
"No, I honestly want to know what other forms of self-worship there are... so I can see if I fit them or not.
When I asked for others, I was really asking for some."
I offered you a great story outlining them, because your request seemed sincere...
AND:
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty..."
You got that part backwards. We didn't make God, He made us. But I guess RS was right on in his post, because you seem to be above fallibility. How, with that kind of superiority complex, would you ever convict yourself of self worship?
Besides, your unbelief in God in no way undermines reality.
AND:
"Point out to me other forms of self-worship without the Bible thumping."
Sincere hearted individuals looking for the truth are open minded...not contemptuous prior to investigation. Guess we know you're closed minded now, too.
AND:
"People need not believe in God and the Bible to be good people"
Never brought up that subject...but you say it a lot, so it must be a hot button. I think you're like a scared man that keeps whistling in the dark as a way of pretending everythings okay.
I guess if you say it enough you'll believe it's true.
Mark: about this quote:
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty..."
Didn't mean to slam you directly on that. I didn't realize you had quoted Einstein, there.
JP: "I offered you a great story outlining them, because your request seemed sincere..."
It was.. and it is. I asked for direct examples.. not page numbers to look up in the Bible.
JP: "Sincere hearted individuals looking for the truth are open minded...not contemptuous prior to investigation. Guess we know you're closed minded now, too."
Hmm... "contemptuous prior to investigation"... but then you say "we know you're closed minded now, too.". Now who's being contemptuous prior to investigation?
JP: "Never brought up that subject...but you say it a lot, so it must be a hot button. I think you're like a scared man that keeps whistling in the dark as a way of pretending everythings okay."
I don't think I've said that a lot.. but whatever. I've heard quite a bit from the religious community about how unbelievers are going to hell or that they're not good people.. a sentiment that's either directly stated or implied. It's true that YOU never brought it up.
JP: "I guess if you say it enough you'll believe it's true."
Haha... that works for everyone on every subject.. including you.
JP: "Mark, you're fun to have around man. It's like constant entertainment"
Oh, believe me.. that feeling is mutual.
JP: "How, with that kind of superiority complex, would you ever convict yourself of self worship?
Besides, your unbelief in God in no way undermines reality."
No such superiority complex exists in me. I'm asking for direct examples of self-worship.. without the Biblical context. It seems to me that self-worship is not something that is defined only by the Bible. If I wanted Bible passages I would've asked for such.
Oops.. forgot to type out another thought.
JP: "Besides, your unbelief in God in no way undermines reality."
Reality? You mean, your supposed reality.. which happens to be shared by a lot of other people. Well, the truth and reality do not necessarily belong to people who's beliefs are shared by the most.. and things are not false because they're unpopular.
I'm far more skeptical. I don't reject religions outright... but I don't use them, as some people do, as the basis of what I define as "real" and "the truth". They're one possibility among countless others.
Mark: I tend not to jump into these conversations becuase I don't really enjoy pointless arguments. You're not really curious about the topics you bring up, you're just looking for opportunities to justify your own beliefs. Which is fine, but not something I want to spend my time refuting.
Man comes to God by faith, not by proof. Until and unless you're open to those terms, there's not much use in discussing the details with you.
I don't see what is wrong with loving one's self and embracing what you can accomplish as a human being, belief or unbelief in God completely aside. People feeling worthless without God only inspires people to believe in God, but has little bearing on whether or not they are actually worthless or not.
MW: "Man comes to God by faith, not by proof"
Fine. That's fine. If everyone would just keep their faith out of everyone else's business the world would be a much safer place.
MW: "You're not really curious about the topics you bring up, you're just looking for opportunities to justify your own beliefs."
Sure I am curious. All I'm asking for is a list of ways in which a person worships themselves.. to see what way(s) apply to me. I didn't ask for Bible references or Bible pages to look at.
If no one wants to give me such a list, that's fine... just tell me you don't want to and we'll leave it at that.
Mark: Please give an example of how anyone's faith is interfering with your business. The only faith that regularly and directly interferes with my life is environmentalism. The secular humanist faith used to be more oppressive when I was attending public school, but at the moment I only suffer indirect consequences from that publically-established religion. Others, such as aborted babies, suffer more directly.
Christianity is a revealed religion, and any answers worth having derive from the Bible. God reveals himself to man, man does not discover God. To ask for answers and to refuse to consult the Bible is fruitless.
MW: "Please give an example of how anyone's faith is interfering with your business. The only faith that regularly and directly interferes with my life is environmentalism. The secular humanist faith used to be more oppressive when I was attending public school, but at the moment I only suffer indirect consequences from that publically-established religion. Others, such as aborted babies, suffer more directly."
Christians and people of various other religions interfere all the time. They tell me I'm going to hell because I'm an active homosexual who doesn't believe in God... and it as well as other things are used to justify the hate expressed by people like Fred Phelps and, to a lesser extent, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
They're imposing the consequences (by trying to scare me into submission) of actions deemed "evil" by their religion on me.. and that's what I object to.
Mark: "Christians and people of various other religions interfere all the time. They tell me I'm going to hell because I'm an active homosexual who doesn't believe in God... and it as well as other things are used to justify the hate expressed by people like Fred Phelps and, to a lesser extent, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson."
None of that interferes with you or oppresses you at all. I'm sorry if not everyone likes you. Guess what? Not everyone likes me either. Life's tough. Mere opinions aren't interference.
MW: Well put. No wonder you run the blog.
Mark: For the record, none of what I said was designed to intimidate, offend, or interfere with your right to a happy life. I also get a kick out of debating with you. I'm an amature at it, and it's interesting and educational to "spar" with someone having the opposite views.
You see, I follow Christ, as best as my imperfection allows; constantly striving to learn and know more about Him, and really desiring to be more like Him. Sometimes I don't articulate my thoughts and feelings the way I really want.
That being said, I heard you ask; hoped you would be open, and sincerely shared those Bible references with you. I don't hate you, man. I care about you as a human being; Just because I try to follow God's will, and that I be open to sharing about Him, does not mean I want you to feel "interfered with".
So maybe it's not myself and others that are interfering. Maybe it's your own consience reacting to truths you're unwilling or unable to face.
Hmmm. 'nuff said.
MW: "None of that interferes with you or oppresses you at all. I'm sorry if not everyone likes you. Guess what? Not everyone likes me either. Life's tough. Mere opinions aren't interference."
Oh, okay... but I guess what I said was interference is so much different from the "environmentalism" and "secular humanism" that you claim had either directly or indirectly interfered with you.
I know that not everyone likes me... and liking me or not has nothing to do with it. There are lots of people I don't "like" but still respect.
JP: "So maybe it's not myself and others that are interfering. Maybe it's your own consience reacting to truths you're unwilling or unable to face."
Thanks, but I don't think you're qualified to psychoanalyze me or anyone else.
I don't require you or anyone else's approval.
I enjoy debating issues just as you do. Since homosexual issues are so personally relevant to me, it's easy for me to take them personally and get offended.
In truth, people like you and Michael Williams are not my enemies. Fred Phelps and other hate groups are. I can respect a difference of opinion.. but I cannot respect hate.
Mark:
"Thanks, but I don't think you're qualified to psychoanalyze me or anyone else."
Call it what you want. I wouldn't call it that, nor would I deem myself qualified to do it. When we post in here we all but ask for everyone's opinion that reads our material. I have mine, as everyone else has there's. Fact is, someone that claims sincerity while asking a question, then immediately rejects the answer without investigation, or because of it's source, never really wanted to know the truth.
Truth seeking is about serious examination of all the evidence. Approval seeking is searching for answers that support your position, and firmly rejecting any that might not, or do not.
"I don't require you or anyone else's approval"
Maybe you do, maybe you don't. Refer to the above paragraph. You asked, but found the answer offensive. An answer that you would have liked would have given you approval, and you would not have minded that.
Also, supporting the push for the government to recognize some of your lifestyle choices is nothing short of seeking approval.
Not that seeking approval is a bad thing. As human beings, we inherently desire others to like us for our choices, and we feel good when others validate our choices as right and responsible. I seek approval; from my parents, good friends, and others that I respect in this life. It's only human.
JP: "You asked, but found the answer offensive. An answer that you would have liked would have given you approval, and you would not have minded that."
Actually, if someone would've given me the list of ways that people worship themselves, I'm sure I would've found some that did apply to me.
I wasn't offended by the Bible stuff so much as I was annoyed by it. Instead of giving me what I asked for.. or refusing to tell me.. I got Bible stuff.
Would it have been so difficult to make a short paragraph listing a few of the forms of self-worship?
JP: "Also, supporting the push for the government to recognize some of your lifestyle choices is nothing short of seeking approval."
It's not a "choice".. we've been over this already. If you think that homosexuality is a choice, you're far more ignorant than I ever expected.
Ignore my previous comment. I don't want to get into a whole other argument about that subject again.
Mark:
"Actually, if someone would've given me the list of ways that people worship themselves, I'm sure I would've found some that did apply to me."
The references I gave you earlier would have presented you with a HUGE list. If you would have looked, you'd have known that.
Mammon - it comes from the earth.
Manna - it comes from heaven.
To be reasonable within the faith level which God has placed in my heart,
I truely believe that we need both to live.( Father in heaven... give us our daily bread... . #The Model Prayer of Jesus ).
I am not indicating that serving them or either one.
For in doing so, it would be err in our ways.
My Abba Father,
I know that I am in need of both to live.
So long as I am still alive on this planet earth, I am in need both to live
in a balanced way.
I cannot out do one for another.
For that is my personal need.
You are my Jehovah Jireh, the all-sufficient Provider.
Hi all,
I am a newcomer here, and I am seeking knowledge and enlightenment as to why so many persons of the cloth are so monetarily wealthy while so many in the congregation over which they preside are often far less wealthy. In short, does a minister of an inner city, or any other church for that matter, really need to drive a Hummer, Bentley or the like when much of the flock must carpool to prayer service in a failing Hyundai or Pinto? Not to be cynical, but I am getting a little tired of wearing 2-for-1 pair Payless shoes to job interviews all week just to see the Pastor wearing a different pair of real alligator footwear almost every Sunday. Help me understand.
jay: I don't know what churches you're going to, but I agree with you in thinking that the pastors you mention have a misplaced accumulation of wealth. Not all pastors are like that, by any means.
So why didn't Jesus take money for his services, or at least tell his disciples to? Especially when Jesus would obviously be the best candidate in employing wealth to serve the "Kingdom of God." Why did Jesus tell a good man, who had great possessions, to sell them and give the money to the poor? If Jesus commanded you to sell your possessions, would you offer up excuses, and say "No, Jesus, I got bills to pay." Thus revealing if God or money is your master. Or would you say, "Sure Jesus, No problem." But only because you know at that point was the second coming, or because you knew Jesus would never actually come around to command that of you.
Before you start writing on this subject, perhaps you should "take the log out of your own eye, before trying to remove the sliver from another's." Because you obviously have overlooked the fact that money is a manmade invention, that enslaves our fellow man to do the bidding of the few and priviledged, and comes into existence through the destruction of God's natural creations. If it was so useful, why didn't God create it to begin with.
It's hard to be a Christian when neglecting Jesus' point of view.
I believe that, for the entire mainstream of modern Christianism, God IS Money.
The teachings of Jesus are ignored by religious leaders who claim to follow "Him."
If a person has a direct and real relationship with Jesus Christ, money is negligible.
TAutological rationalizing is the characteristic of the Falwells, Robertsons, and their theologians, who are simply sorcerers, serving Mammon.
I wish this were not the case, but my devotion to Jesus Christ has taught me that there is a world of Money and a world of following Jesus and NEVER SHALL THE TWAIN MEET except as He provides each and every need that includes some practical dependence on money.
"Seek first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness(justice) and all these things shall be added unto you...Take no thought....(for materialistic thigns)"
"Except a person (abandons all attachments, including MOney), he cannot be my disciple." -- Jesus.
Regards,
Steve Pipkin-Savage,
Son of the late Lester E. Pipkin,
Founder, Appalachian Bible College
(another cultic sellout)
Hi,
To what extent do you think Jesus' teaching about money and possessions is relevant to christians today?
to Ninu:
I think they are relevant to the persons who claim to be his disciples.
Most "Christians" today do not even claim to "follow Jesus", because they know the don't They don't really want to and their leaders don't even try or preach about it.
Jesus' teachings against materialism are almost totally ignored or twisted to fit the current scam by all the "leaders" you know about via TV, etc.
That's a blanket condemnation of Christian hucksterism.
So, relevance has only to do with Jesus' sincere disciples in this age, just like in his.
Steve Pipkin-Savage
Mesa, AZ
pipsav@cox.net