Abortion and Responsibility

It's a fair argument, but it will never fly. Nor should it, from the perspective of one who generally opposes abortion. The last thing we need is for even more abortions because men who are too cheap to pay child support pressure women to get them.

I am (broadly speaking) libertarian, and I've been making precisely this argument for at least a decade. Having and raising a child should be a consensual matter on the part of both parents. Biology grants women priority in the negative case (the man can't co-opt the woman's body if she doesn't want to carry the child to term), but the woman shouldn't be able to unilaterally impose her choice on the man. (I do think the man should be financially liable for the equivalent of the cost of an abortion in the case where he wants to abort the child and the woman does not.)

An interesting variation on this issue is discussed in a novel called _Solomon's Knife_ by Victor Koman -- how do the moral issues change when medical technology allows the fetus to be transplanted?

I believe the only fair thing is if unmarried fathers have no legal claim to custody/visitation/abortion or not, and unmarried mothers have no legal claim to financial support from the fathers.

This way, unmarried fathers legally are completely out of the picture with regard to the baby. If there is agreement, the father and mother can work out whatever arrangement works best for them be that marriage, adoption, abortion, visitation, and/or financial support.

Perhaps this would deter decent men and women from creating children outside of marriage if the men knew they had no claim to the kids, and the women knew they were financially on their own.

As for indecent men and women, it would keep them out of court unless they *want* to work something out legally.

LT,
What happens if the parents get a divorce, say, the day after the child is born? Does the father get to give up his responsibility at that point? What's the difference between the once-married-now-not father and the one who never married?

Also - wasn't the point of fathers having to pay financial support etc not about whether the father cared about the kids or whether he gets to buy the right to see them, but rather about not screwing the kids he created? Given the situation (where it's up to woman to abort), if he that badly didn't want kids, he should have decided before they were conceived - and put on a condom.

As a woman and pro-lifer, I also think it is unfair that a man can't force a woman to have a baby she doesn't want but he does. However, as a Christian, God gave women the right to carry the children and I'm not about to argue with God over whether it's "fair" or not. Either way, I don't think giving men an "out" if they suddenly decide they don't want to be a father is okay (it's certainly not fair to the child who ends up the victim in these cases).

I occasionally watch Maury Povich when I'm home from work and it seems as if every Monday has become "Who's My Baby's Daddy? Day". After listening to most of those men, there's no doubt in my mind most of them would shirk their responsibilty if they could. I don't think they should have that "right."

michelle and Petra: We're not discussing what's fair to the child, since we're assuming that abortion is an option. If you want to discuss fairness to the child, then you can't just allow women to get abortions at will.

Petra: Why shouldn't the man be able to shirk his resposibility? The woman can, by having an abortion. Why should she have more choice than the man does? Is that "equality" under the law?

Michael,
Personally, I believe abortion is wrong and should be outlawed. If I could force my opinion on everyone, no more women would be allowed to have abortions. I don't think they should be able to shirk responsibility any more than the father. However, biologically (since they carry the child) they are able to shirk that responsibility if they are bound and determined. (And if a man is really bound and determined, he can shirk it too although he's more likely to suffer heavier consequences - or at least heavier while he is on earth since some day the woman will have to explain to God why she had an abortion.)

To sum up, in my opinion, neither one of them should be able to shirk their responsibility. If you make a baby, you either put that baby up for adoption or you provide emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, and financially for that child until age 18.

Abortion is different from adoption, because if the mother wants to carry the baby to term but doesn't want to care for the baby the father has the legal right to take sole custody.

Are you sure on that? I know in some states a father does not have to be notified that he has a child on the way. Florida for a time required attempts at notification but that law has since been negated (can't remember if it was struck down or repealed). If the mother were to say that the child were someone else's, got a friend to say he was the father, and quickly adopted it off I'm not sure if the father would have recourse. I'd like to think he would, but I'm not positive on that (if the choice to put the child up for adoption was made pre-birth).

(Unfortunately, I don't have trackback, so I'll put a link here to my thoughts on the matter as a whole)

RA: I'm not sure about notification, and I bet it does vary state-by-state. But I know that I've heard of cases of adoptions being invalidated by a biological father who turns up later.

That's got to be a nightmare for everyone involved. It's unfortunately quite difficult to enforce notification (as Florida discovered), though I'd hope there is some way that the kid's DNA can get tested prior to the adoption so that someone who believes the child is his can get that done without a year's worth of legal work while the children is with another family.

One question I have is that it's not legally permissable for a father to legally disown a child even if the mother and father sign a contract (historically, such contracts have been invalidated by the courts from what I understand). In the case where a father does get the child, I wonder if the mother is afforded the rights that a father isn't.

To take it a step further, let's say that the father says he wants the child and wants the mother to pay child support (making it not agreed upon) as he'd have to if she got custody. On one hand, it seems as though the mother is holding all the cards (not unusual) in that she can keep the kid if she wants it or have nothing to do with it if she wants that (while a father can't do that). On the other hand, if you hold the mother to the same standards as the father (or if you lower the father's standards) you're making it more likely that a woman would make the decision to just terminate the baby and get it over with.

Some people talk about biologically and "However, as a Christian, God gave women the right to carry the children and I'm not about to argue with God over whether it's "fair" or not."

Biologically and "being a Christian" did god give women the power to force a man to pay child support? No. A woman can't make a man do sheet unless he does it because he wants to.

Those women and people who believe it's ok to trample on a man's rights and take away his choice because it's in the best interest of a child should reconsider. If women do not have access to the tyranny of the courts and the government which has a monopoly on the use of deadly force, things would be different. If a man wanted to he could force a woman to have the baby and he could also take the baby also.

It may never happen but there's always a chance that things may revert so I would take that into account before trying to abuse a father through the legal system.

Maybe that is why there are Scott Petersons and dude like the one in Texas that killed his ex-wife after some child support issue. If a man has enough and decides it's time to settle the score there's very little anyone can do to prevent it or even see it coming. Ever hear of Carl Drega?

So the moral of the story is women need to respect men and stop acting like wormy cowards hiding behind the tyrants in black robes and evil babylonian government.

And to that Christian poster ..i wonder what Jesus would say about taking a man's child and getting it aborted or extorting a man using his child a bargaining tool? Now that is very Christian, isn't it. Christians are dirt.

And i am a libertarian spiritually and politically

Adam

I am sure you felt good when you said "Christians are dirt" that really described your character...and I thank you for being that way...if you have any sense you would understand no matter what people say its just not right to insult them like this. This is what splits our countries and thats why we will always have war because of people wanting to insult each other. You must understand that if a female had sex with another male then he and she both came to an agreement of taking on the responsibility of raising a child. Everyone knows that sex can bring about a child. So if you agree to have sex with another female you will take that responsiblity of raising a child. Also as a female if you have sex with a male then you must understand that you can get pregnant. So now you think...a baby is about to born into this world is it right for you to take that childs life away because you was thinking because of your sexual pleasure? There is consequence to every action...the problem is everybody try to find an easy way out to every situation...Scott Peterson was weak which caused him to kill his wife...people who have abortions are weak...not everybody can be strong not everybody can survive every situation...that is why we must let people take responsibility of there actions...basically a since of discpline of the world is gone from this time. That is why we have increasing crime and abortions and people killing the government by having many kids. This country is like a baby...we need to show them the consequence of life and the choices you make, but also give them the ability to survive but not the easy route...we need to teach people the responsibilty as a parent and as a good example for all other generations of kids.

As a single 19 year old mother, i was faced with the decision of either aborting or keeping my baby. I always thought that if i were to get pregnant, that i would definitely abort, but once u realize that u actually have a life inside of u, its totally different. Now, i decided to keep the baby against the fathers wishes. He did want me to abort and made that very clear pretty much throughout my whole pregnancy. He wasnt around much at all, and i wasnt trying to force him to be. I dont think fathers have to be obligated to be there for there kids, bc at the end of it all wat does a child gain from having a parent around that doesnt really wanna be there. I rather explain to my kid why his dad isnt around, then why he has a worthless father around. Im not argeeing with them escaping thier responsibility, bc whether the man wants the baby or not, he still had sex and made the baby and thats his blood. I am im favor of child support and disagree strongly with the thought, that since it was the mothers choice to keep it she should soley have to provide for the child. Its not enough that we nuture and provide for the baby its 1st 9 mons of life, but we have to carry with the burden of sleeping with a loser forever as well. No, i think that a man should also pay and assume his responsibility for sleeping with a women who would decide to keep a child against his wishes. Afterall its not like him paying or not child support is at all something towards the mother, it just effects the child, who regarless of any views, has absolutely no fault at all in the matter.
If a man doesnt wanna assume all possible consequences of his actions, then u shouldnt be putting himself in any kind of position where he give the other person power. thats a mans stupid mistake that a women doesnt have to make up for, but committing a even bigger mistake.

As a mother I never agreeded to the vicious cycle of abortion..to end a human life be it an embryo or other is something i could never agree to...I dont even agree to the death penelty..Now I am in an akward position..I am a prolife mother of three boys..One of my sons is facing becoming a father at the age of 17..he has not yet graduated high school and has plans on going to a university to become a pharmicist..His ex-girlfriend is 1 1/2 months late ..home pregnacy test were negative..She has not yet saw a doctor..As his mother I would want the baby..Its a part of my son..Also as a mother I fear for my sons furture..He said he wants her to have an abortion if she pregnant...If she chooses not to he will still have a baby and child support to pay at the age of 17..How fair is this ? I agree if the father wants an abortion and the mother doesnt, the father should not have to be liable finacialy..these words are coming from and loving mother and a woman who desires to have a grandchild..Whoa what a tangled web we weave !

I am a 24 yr old preganant by my boyfriend of 4 years, he's 28. I am in this situation where he broke up with me a few weeks before I found out I was preganant. Now, I have a decision to make because I know he doesn't want a future with me but I have his child. He's begging me to have an abortion. It's funny... considering to have an abortion is very PERSONAL and difficult especially with the circumstances and it's easy for others to have an opinion. I'm keeping my baby but I'm scared about dealing with the father because of his obvious dispise for me and my pregnancy. I haven't really thought about financial obligations . I've just been soul searching and worrying about what type of person or woman i would be if i had an abortion. The man who posted about weak women having abortions is definately correct about that. Abortion is for scared women afraid of the situation who want to be rid of it. Most people are scared of what they dont know first hand. All i can say from my experience is that i wish things were different. I wish we were still in love and contemplating marriage. I wish we could agree on this. I'm beginning to almost hate him for the way he's behaving and the things he's saying. His fear of financial obligations and being a parent have manifested into constant arguements and attitude. What's a woman to do? Get an abortion because he doesn't love me anymore? I love the child. I want the child. I'm scared to tell the truth but thank God he can't force me to abort and it's my decision. I just pray that God should soften his heart and we can be decent to one another.

Oh how judgemental we can be! "abortion is for weak women because I didn't have one and I would hate to think I'm weak"
It's an interesting dilemma though. Highly emotional too.
If you consider a foetus to be human from conception you would have to allow a father to force a woman to carry the child - he's saving the life of his own child. As soon as the child is born it is equally his and hers, so why should it be different in the womb?

If you are really, really only concerned with the well-being of the unborn baby and you believe innocent babies are taken straight back in to the arms of god if they die, then what is the problem from the child's point of view? Heaven is supposed to be quite a nice place. The only people you need to be concerned about is the mother and father. If you think the poor, unsaved baby goes to hell because it is not saved, in spite of having no language, no ears, no awareness whatsoever, then you open a huge can of worms regarding the Lovingness and Justness and Mercy and Compassion of that thar god o' yours...
Abortion should not simply be some form of retrospective contraception - not because of some god saying so - but because it had consequences for the mother and father that go way beyond just the physical process. It has to be approached with care, compassion, understanding and a bit of thought.