Kiril at Sneakeasy's Joint has an irreverent collection of Easter blog-postings. I've never read the site before, so I don't know if he was trying to be mean or funny. It doesn't matter to me; I'm not very easily offended.
What prompted me to write this post is what he wrote in the comments section of his own post. I'll intersperse my response with his, in the traditional blogger fashion (but with, obviously, a superlative quantity of style).
While I do NOT believe in the LITERAL TRUTH of the Christian Bible, in any of its versions, I most definitely do NOT scoff at the many valuable lessons it teaches, and the many good, and wonderful blessings, believers in it have brought to Western Civilization.The "LITERAL TRUTH" of the Bible that's important to believe is pretty simple: Jesus died to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead. Everything else is just context, and it's worthless without this central truth. None of the lessons Jesus taught are valuable apart from his Godhood, and none of the blessings Christianity has brought to Western Civilization are worth a hill of beans in the scope of eternity.
Jesus claimed to be God -- the Jews of his time knew his claim, and they threatened to stone him for it on more than one occasion. Eventually he was crucified for blasphemy. If Jesus wasn't God, then he certainly wasn't a wise and good teacher, because no one wise and good would falsely claim to be God. If Jesus wasn't God, he was either a liar or a lunatic.
There are many Religions in the world, with far more followers than Christianity, and who are we, whether believers in the literalness of the story, or just folks who try to live a Christian life according to our personal understandings of what that is, to tell these people that THEIR belief is wrong, and if they don't believe otherwise they will go to hell?Truth is true no matter who believes it. When everyone thought the earth was flat that didn't make it so. The number of people who believe something is entirely incidental to whether that something is true or false.
It doesn't matter if truth offends your sensibilities or condemns your most treasured opinions. It doesn't matter if you like the truth or not. All that matters is what is true, and what is not.
That way has led to all manner of wars, and injustices, whether instigated by Christians, Muslims, or who ever else, because they couldn't get along with a culture, or individual of a different faith, or no faith at all.Jesus himself addressed this issue:
Matthew 10:34-39Truth and falsehood will always be in conflict. It isn't always violent -- and generally it shouldn't be -- but if there were no conflict at all then truth would be inconsequential."Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
Tyranny and liberty are in conflict as well, but few condemn those who fight for freedom solely on the basis of the violence they engender. Some things are worth fighting for, and some things are worth dying for.
Thanks for stopping by, and for attempting to give me the closest thing to what is known in the Bloggerverse as a FISKING that I'm likely to ever get. :-)
Seriously, though, I WAS being humorous. :-)
As much as the devout believer in the literal accuracy of the Bible can be frustrating to argue with there is no reason to be mean to them.
I come from a family that believes that being a Christian, and having a sense of humor about ones religion are not incompatable.
As for your post itself, I need to think about how to respond as I may run out of room this time around. :-)
It seems to me that "the Jews" should read "some Jews."
That is true. SOME believed in him, others didn't.
It's been a sore point ever since. :-)
I am no scholar, just a guy who has reached certain conclusions through his own lifes experiences.
I can't outlast a dedicated Literalist in a debate simply becasue he or she KNOWS they are right just as I do about my beliefs, but more so, and can quote scripture, chapter and verse, where I can't present everything science, and archeology has found to support evolution, and I want to go to bed sometime tonite. :-)
a poster over at my place said religion and politics give him a stomach ache. :-)
This was my reply:
Drop the religion from your discussion diet, take 2 aspirins, and call your doctor in the morning. :-)
That prescription has worked for me most of my adult life. :-)
I've written this piece as a humorous, satirical, and also serious, celebration of Easter, and the discusion here and elsewhere has been fascinating.
Religion is one of Mankinds biggest barriers to peace on earth, and goodwill toward men. :-)
There is no way you are ever going to get people to stop believing in their particular religion, or doing what ever can be done to spread that particular religion around the world, or stop a particular religion from spreading.
The one thing most, if not all of them, agree on is that the Athiest is misguided, and needs to see the error of his or her ways. :-)
I learned long ago that engaging in a discusion about creation vs evolution, or the accuracy of scripture, is a game neither side can win, even if evolution has all the evidence on its side.:-)
It's interesting, and amusing, for all of 15 minutes then it's all downhill, especially when talking to some Evangelicals, or Jehovah's Witnesses, as they turn their hearing to "selective", and set about trying to help me see the error of my ways. :-)
Notice I said SOME, not ALL, as I have the evidence of people I know, such as my dearly departed Adopted Grandmother who I could talk to, and not worry about the discusiion turning to the salvation of my soul because I was so very wrong in my belief.
Anyone reading this will recognise similar experiences, in their lives, and realize I'm not trying to be mean, just truthful.
Now, regardless of the religion of the reader of these comments, if you have a sense of humor, you may nod, and laugh in recognition, and if not you may rage against me as being judgemental, and ridiculing of religion.
I have respect for those who believe so strongly in their faith, and admire their commitment, but that is not for me.
There are some on the other side who would not feel the same aboubt me, however, and that is truly sad.
The phony liar/lunatic/Lord trichotomy makes for a nice sound bite, but it doesn't come anywhere close to covering all the possibilities. Off the top of my head, here are a few others:
Some of these theories are more far-fetched than others, of course, but all of them are possible unless you begin with the assumption that the Biblical account of Jesus's life was 100% accurate. And if you do start with that assumption, then the "liar" and "lunatic" options aren't really there, either; liars and lunatics don't heal lepers, convert water to wine, rise from the dead, etc.
JT: No, I'm an anti-Semite. Sigh.
K: I don't see what evolution and/or creation have to do with Jesus' divinity. Seperate issue entirely.
X: Yes, but soundbites make nice, neat arguments. Jesus could also have been an alien, I suppose. Or maybe we're all replicants created five seconds ago with false, implanted memories.
There's no way to know for certain; all we can do is examine the most likely possibilities and proceed on faith.
Same book, different discussion, true, but the same debate about taking the subject as being the literal truth applies.
The faithful, or maybe just the VERY faithful, believe creation is true, and evolution false.
Anyway, thanks for the debate, but I must surrender the Pulpit to you, and go get my beauty sleep. :-)
The theories about space aliens and implanted memories can be dismissed out of hand, as can the theories that he was a pantheist or that he was just kidding. The others - that he may not have existed at all, or that he may never have claimed divinity - cannot be.
X: I don't see how you can dismiss them out of hand. They're just as provable/disprovable as the other thoeries.
As for the two you like: there's far more evidence that Jesus existed than that Julius Caesar existed, and no one doubt that.
That he didn't claim divinity: you'd have to dismiss all the early church records -- written by dozens of people all across the know world -- as a coordinated fabrication.
The other theories can be dismissed because they are just silly. People jokingly claim to be God all the time, but that theory doesn't fly here because the people quoting Jesus knew him well enough that sooner or later, they'd have gotten the joke. Space aliens have never been known to exist, let alone visit earth. Ditto for implanted memories; not that we'd have any way of figuring that theory out if it were true.
As to whether Jesus existed, or claimed everything the Bible says he claimed, I don't think reputable historians are unanimous on these points. They certainly aren't unanimous on the part about the miracles. And I don't know how much coordination it takes for a rumor to spread, especially when a later group gets to decide which church teachings will become the Bible and which ones won't - and systematically tosses aside those whose teachings don't toe the party line. Besides, coordinated fabrications are basically the null hypothesis when judging religions. You yourself must admit as much with respect to every religion in the world that has ever existed, save yours.
X: I'll certainly grant your initial paragraph, even though none of the theories are at all provable -- silliness seems moot.
The Big Lies throughout history don't generally catch on and survive for millenia, especially when they're expensive and difficult to live by. Look at Communism.
the problem is not the teaching of JESUS nor his existance but the way in which it is understood.not a single church and i doubt many born agains except a few agnostics have put his ways into life practically.jesus i believe died not to atone the sins of man but to show a very strong example of human sacrifrice towards helping the human cause. he was an individual concerned as the bible states for the bettermant of human evolution. if we do take his crucifation as a ultimate sacrifice then there are people who have done the same in human history to sacrifice their lives for their fellow beings(even suicide bombers do it) so crucification does not hold any importance to people like me.what is important for me is what he did by healing,feeding & imparting knowledge of reason to be good not by fear of a unseen god but by compulsion of love towards beings.i believe the church with its matierialistic prophets will ultimately destroy unwittingly their own foundation by the ways they follow.these words are not said out of contempt but i am unbiased as a heathen who wants this whole earth to turn into a fair and free world as it had been ages back. we got to understand that religions are for sects but the one god that created us and everything else is for all of us.its not said in vain that god is love itself.we have all got learn and understand that unconditional love, only then will we get the true message that JESUS preached.
a pagan doomed to hellfire