Till Death Do Us Part

Also, Jesus said that in heaven there is no marriage, so that pretty well settles it.

For those of us who believe in reincarnation, it had better be "till death do us part" ...

That's right, it is Death do us part. At that point, you are free to date. Both of you.

If I were ever going to get married, the clause would be, "until, on-the-whole, one of us would be happier elsewhere." There is absolutely NO merit to staying in an unhealthy or unhappy relationship.

And really, would you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who: doesn't like you, fears you, or doesn't want to have sex with you?

I'm not talking about "Hey, I've had a bad day with you, I'm outta here!" but if your overall emtional average is worse than what you would have by yourself--leave!

I think getting married shouldn't free you from having to earn your spouses affection and attention.

With all due respect to Rev. Sensing, not all Christian denominations interpret that passage of scripture the same way he does. They teach that a marriage *can* last for eternity, if both individuals are faithful to their covenants and the marriage is performed by the proper authority.

I was going to say this, anyway, but Terry's comment gives it some grounding.

Having seen a few divorces up close over the last year, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't possible to approach marriage with "until, on-the-whole, one of us would be happier elsewhere." If that's the attitude, don't even bother.

The very fact that leaving remains an option affects the relationship. Knowing that there's an out will increase the likelihood of dislike, fear, or lack of arousal. In contrast, permanence is quite a motivator for compromise and resolution of problems.

Yeah, commited marriages go wrong, but if your vows include "as long as we feel like it," then you'd do just as well wearing his varsity jacket, rather than a wedding ring, as a sign of his committment. (Of course, that goes the other way, as well.)

Terry: I addressed your perspective here. In summary, would you accept less of a committment from the mother of your children than you'd expect from a business partner?

I've always thought that the most interesting advice I got about divorce was from a long-time "family law" practitioner. One day when I asked how he had stayed married to his high-school sweetheart after seening so many divorces, he said, "I learned. The most important bit of advice I can give you is this: if you feel like getting a divorce, it means that you need to do two things. First, work harder, every day, at telling your wife you love her. Keep doing it even if she doesn't seem to be responding. Second, don't do anything about the divorce stuff until a year later. I've never remembered about it for more than six months, myself, without wondering what I could have been thinking. I give this advice to all my clients who are coming to me thinking about getting a divorce. The ones who take it stay married. The ones who don't, I represent. Think about it. Besides, when I got married, nobody forced me to say, "I'll be with you always." But I said it. I like to think that when I say something, I mean it. This is just one way of being myself."

Micheal:

I would not expect a business partner to stick around if:
1) I beat him up.
2) didn't respect his personal space/desire to be left alone sometimes.
3) we continually did not profit together.
All of these are included under a "til death do us part" clause.

I'd expect about the same commitment from my wife as a business partner.

Raising kids is another issue. I would be more explicit about the rock-bottom required behavior for parent's, especially regarding inconceivable differences of opinion, such as what happens if one parent changes their religion?

Unlike romantic relationships (like marriage), a breakdown WILL cause big, long-term problems if the parents can't decently parent together without mutual affection for each other. (Is "parent" a verb? I think so.)

My husband and I got married about a year ago. I was 30 at the time, he was 28. We had dated for a few years before that as well. We wanted to get married because we believed that something more than a private claim of a commitment was necessary for us to deepen our commitments, our intimacy, and our conviction that we were/are a team. I could not explain why I felt this was necessary, but we each felt it. At the same time, I was around many colleagues who were coupled but not married, and they constantly asked me if I really believed in marriage being forever, since I couldn't even tell you what career I'd want in 5 years. While engaged, I questioned if I really believed I could live up to a lifelong commitment, and wondered if in fact I wouldn't want to leave if I felt the relationship was unfulfilling.

I have to say that getting married has been the most profound experience I have ever had. I've had pain, death, love, hardship, terror, etc. in my life, but none of those things has changed me the way my marriage has. I knew enough to understand that my marriage would work not due to love, but due to the choice to make this love into something more than just emotion. But never did I expect the joy I've received in return. It is through my marriage that I've seen just how loving I want to be. It is through my marriage that I have realize how much I wish to be a good and righteous person--and see a path toward that.

I've met many people who said that getting married changed nothing for them -- "it was just a piece of paper". I weep for them. Truly. I weep because they are somehow missing out on the profound value of their own life and worth that comes to them when they admit that this purposely-chosen connection and commitment is grander than anything they foresaw, and yet they not only bear that burden, but thrive inside of it. I do not believe their marriages will last, either. Perhaps I'm wrong, but if nothing changed for you when you got married, I imagine that the pains of marriage will outweigh the joys.

I can see every day why people choose the "we'll stay married until one of us is happier elsewhere." Partially, it is because they don't want to make a sacrifice. Partially, they fear that any restriction breeds contempt. Partially, they see permanence as a means of taking someone for granted, or of being taken for granted. Yes, those things would be miserable. But I don't think that agreeing to stay with someone for the rest of our lives means that I get to take them for granted. I do still have to earn their respect and affection. It is because I intend to stay that every day, I again act to earn those things. And every single day, I choose not to do those things that would undermine it. Every day I see the decay those thoughts and feelings would bring. Every day, I reaffirm what I've found. If I was not willing to overcome those feelings and thoughts, I would not have this shining warmth and light inside me. If I had just stopped my vows at that point, I would never have found this wealth inside myself and the world. I would never have known how beautiful the world can be.

Terry: You've changed the point of the question. You wouldn't go into business with someone who wasn't willing to be contractually bound.

AW: Sounds like good advice. That's how I approach all my major purchasing decisions, too. Most things I want to buy at the moment, I forget about a few days later. Helps me save a lot of money.

A: Can I post your story on the blog?

Well, of course you can, if you like. I left it here for you.

Michael,

To be clear:
I wouldn't enter into a contract with someone that required them to sacrifice themselves for me, or for us. (Sacrifice meaning getting less than what they put into it, measured over the long-haul.)

Terry: You would, if the alternative were that you'd get stuck with all the loss yourself.

Well, this is where the business model of relationships doesn't work.

The "loss" in business mostly involves money that someone has to pay back (assuming the business is formed as a partnership and not a corporation).

The "loss" in a marriage is staying in a miserable marriage when it's not working for both, measured in wasted years of life.

I would rather spend my life (good and bad) with someone who chooses to be there rather than someone who is forced to be there. Maybe other people would prefer it be the other way around, but I don't understand that approach to relationships.

Terry: It's called committment. Most people see honoring their word as a virtue. If you don't, then I guess there's no real basis for discussion. You probably shouldn't get married at all; what's the point?

For some divorce is not an option. When it means losing your children or finacial ruin. I've lived in a sexless marriage for 12 years but I don't want to not live with my kids. For me marriage is a trap where getting out is just as bad as staying in.

BF: I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I hope I'm never faced with anything like that. Eh. As far as it's within your power, try to make the best of it I guess. I think it's best for your kids, in the long run.

It seems that some people feel that one person alone has the capability to make a marriage work. In some instances doing all you can does not work when the other spouse no longer even trys. So the alternative seems to be that because one says I do even if, they are doing all they can should be forced to stay in misery because they made a vow, with no possible way of knowing the other person did not whole the same level of commitment. My children probably have the worse view of marriage because we have stayed togather. It is bad when children clearly parents who can not talk to each other, show no affection for each other, do no family things togather, and basically live like room mates. I do not understand the benefit to children in in such circumstances. As a result of my continuing to try inspite of all I now have ulcers, digestive problems, kidney problems, and at times just the thought of trying to have a convesation with my husband causes me to have chest pain and shortness of breath. Trust me the people who have these wonderful grand marriages did not accomplish this by themselves they had to have willing and able partners as committed as themselves. What happens to those of us that do not have such luck. Apparently the christian belief seems to be too bad so sad live the rest of your life with a person who just there to avoid the finacial ramifications and allow yourself to be a door mat to anything they dish out and Why? Because you got married tough break. I wish you could live a day in the lives of people who fight just to live through the life long days a misery and I wonder if you would feel the same. Marriage can be good in some cases in others it is a life long trap of pain and misery.

fm: Well, if tour husband is abusing you then you should get away from him. Otherwise, you should do your best to provide a caring environment for your kids. Hopefully your husband care about them still. I'm sad that you find yourself in this situation, wasn't there any hint of your husband's true attitude before you got married?

In reply to message from MW. My husband is a master pathelogical liar because of his lies I am facing court in a few days and the possibilty of having my license suspened because he lied and said the car insurance was paid I got stop and got a ticket for no insurance now I face a fine and possible suspension and I do not even live near a bus and may not be able to transport my kids to school or get to prenatal appointments. My husband is a workaholic so he has not been to a single doctors appoitment and will not take off work for anything. When we did premarital counseling twice because the first time we decided to wait he even lied to the pastor. He lied and forged documents in order to buy the home we are in and I did not find out until after we moved in the house that was suppose to be a surprise for me but I had no say in picking. I wwas just informed taht he bought the house after he closed. He lies about paying bills we just had the phone cut off bill collectors are constantly calling I am pregnant and feel like i am losing my mind. It is not lack of finaces we have the money my husband is just being irresponsible and hates to pay bills but does not want me to handle anything. I am in tremendous debt because of his lies. On top of all that we have a non-exsistant sex life. He lied told me he was impotent but he can get it up to jack off when watching a porno on the computer. He refuses to take any pride in himself hardly bathes, wears stinking dirty clothes, teeth are caked with tarter, breath smells as if something died in his mouth he has dandruff cause he washes his hair maybe once every couple of months and even has it in his eyebrows because he does not wash his face daily. We do not talk to each other anymore except to say we are coming or going, we do not sleep in the same room anymore, all we seem to do is argue when ever conversation does come up and he was even prepared to send me to court with forged up documents about insurance but thank God I decided to call the insurance comapany and was informed the papers were false before I actually went to court and possibly jail for bringing in forged documents. I do not feel loved or cared for by this man. I have a daughter from a previous relationship and not only does she have to deal with the fact that her real father wants nothing to do with her and has done nothing but lie to her now she has him lieing to her and our son see's me crying and although he is in the house there are some days we he barely even speaks to them except when it is time to discipline. She has to watch me go through a disfunctional marriage and basically live life alone. He even lies to the kids. How do i teach my children how to one day be good husbands and wives when thay have absolutely nothing to model their lives after. I know what Gods intent was for marriage but why does he want me and my children to live this kind of a life with no way out. Now I am raising children who may in turn be disfunctional in their future marriages I just can not make any sense of all this and I feel like my only choices are be miserable and put my children through all of this or disobey God and go to hell for leaving a man who cares nothing about me. It seems with either option I am condemned how can this be God's plan for my and my childrens life how do you love someone and watch them hurt and suffer and go through illness and tremendous depression. I love God and no I do not wish to ever dissapoint him but right now I feel like he is dissapointing me and that my feelings and my life is of little concern to him. My prayers seem pointless because you can not change a person who has no desire to change, people do not fix what do do not precieve as broken. I have prayed, cried beg and pleaded, tried to reason tried to compromise with my husband. I have even tried to ignore all the bad things and pretend they are okay my five year old son is acting out and in need of relationship with his dad and where is dad either at work, in front of the t.v., or in front of the computer closed up in the master bed room where he sleeps while i sleep on a couch in the den. But everyone keeps telling me this is what God would want me to just sit in this empty place so i sit and everyday I lose a piece of myself until somedays I feel there is nothing left of me and my only desire to exsist is fir my children. What an awesome life i am living because i am trying to be obedient to God's word.

free michelle: If everything you're saying is true, then I think you have every possible justification for leaving your husband. He has already gone way past any line of faithfulness and already broken his marriage vows. Get out while you can and take your kids out of such a horrible environment. And please, stop having kids with such terrible men.