Beth's original response to my "Jews for Jesus" post.
My response to her response: "Proselytization and Free Speech".
Beth comments further and says that she dislikes the idea of proselytizing. I don't mean this to be sarcastic at all: do all attempts to change people's minds about philisophical issues bother Beth, or is she only bothered when it comes to what she sees as "religion"?
A lot hinges on the definition of "religion", and that's why I normally refer to "belief systems" instead. An atheist, agnostic, secular humanist, or what-have-you wouldn't like their world-view characterized as "religion", even though those belief systems fall into the same category as Christianity or Islam (as SDB has explained).
So does Beth think that no one should ever try to convince anyone of anything, or are only certain topics off-limits? If so, does only "religious" proselytization bother her, or does the proselytizing of people with non-"religious" systems of belief bother her as well?
This is important to me, because I believe that our public school system (as one example) pushes a secular humanist world-view that is, in fact, essentially religious. Similarly, there is a group of people that would push this belief system on our entire society, while on the surface only advocating the removal of "religious" influence. The failure to recognize and acknowledge that secular humanism is a "belief system" akin to any religion is disingenuous, in my opinion.
This is not to say that Beth holds any of these views -- I'm simply expounding my thoughts on the matter. It's a fascinating topic, and I hope she does write what she thinks about Christianity in the Middle East at some point, as she indicated she might.
I'd be very interested in hearing more about what Secular Humanist viewpoints you feel the public school systems are promoting. While I largely don't have a problem with Secular Humanism myself, I do agree that schools should try to concentrate more on facts and knowledge than the promotion of specific belief systems.
I blogrolled your site awhile ago, but haven't gotten around to reading it much as of yet. Everytime I do get a chance to take a look, though, I find that you have a lot of very interesting threads going. I'm going to have to raise the priority of your blog in my reading list so I can get a bit more into it. :-)
What about her confusion about the purpose of having everyone share your beliefs? Is Judiasm not very satisfying for her? Not to say that the reason to share the gospel is to improve someone's life (make them feel satisfied). Why don't you (better than me) write why Christian's want the whole world saved? HE wants that NONE should perish, and we are to become like him. And "the afterlife crowded"? Doesn't she think God can house his children? "The world a boring place"? Look at the diversity in each individual church, the in-house debates, the loving charity. Not boring to me.
Leah
Les: thanks! As far as secular humanism, it's kinda become the de facto standard in the public school system. It's not strictly taught, and I doubt most school teachers could define it, but I became conscious of it even in 3rd grade when our class had to sing "Greatest Love of All" as a class.
+---------+
I believe that children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my need
A lonely place to be and so I learned to depend on me
I decided long ago never to walk in anyone's shadow
If I fail, if I succeed at least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me, they can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all inside of me
The greatest love of all is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself, it is the greatest love of all
+---------+
To a Christian, that's all nonsense. The teacher didn't say "and if you think loving others or loving God is more important than loving yourself, you're an idiot", but the message I got was exactly that -- and that's the message that was intended.
Leah: I wasn't intending to get into a theological debate with Beth. While I certainly would like to convince her that my beliefs are correct, I don't think that the best way to do that would have been to start quoting the Bible to her. It's important to build an argument that's suited for your opponent, and I think that getting her agreement that proselytization is socially acceptable was an important puzzle piece.
Beth isn't the only one who has expressed the idea that people shouldn't try to "convert" others, and so I thought that presenting a reasonable argument to the contrary would be a valuable thing to do.
It's not necessary to try to win the war with each and every battle.