Ok, I need some help here. These questions are purely hypothetical.
Suppose Boy A and Boy B are friends, and both like Girl A. Girl A likes Boy A, but doesn't like Boy B. Boy A wants to go out with Girl A.
1. Does Boy A need Boy B's permission to go out with Girl A? Do the facts that Boys A and B are friends, and that Boy B likes Girl A imply that if Boy A is a "real friend" he won't go out with Girl A without first asking Boy B?
2. Suppose Boy A does ask for Boy B's permission, but Boy B refuses. Can Boy A then go out with Girl A, or would doing so prove that he isn't a "real friend" to Boy B?
My own position is that if Girl A likes Boy A rather than Boy B, then Boy B will just have to deal with it. His feelings may be hurt, but if he were to interfere in Boy A's relationship with Girl A, then Boy B would be the one who wasn't being a "real friend".
Furthermore, if Boy A is required to ask Boy B for permission to go out with Girl A, I think that shows a profound lack of respect for Girl A, on both the boys' parts. Girl A has made her decision, and she likes Boy A. For the boys to have some sort of external negotiations over her based on their own relationship reduces Girl A to a commodity, a mere object.
I can understand that Boy A would be concerned for his friend's feelings, but Boy B has no claim on Girl A. If Boy A restricts his involvement with Girl A based on the desires of Boy B, doesn't that dehumanize Girl A?
Update:
R. Alex responds. He thinks it's all dependent on "emotions" or something (whatever those are). If so-and-so feels such-and-such with a certain magnitude, then everything changes. That's fine, and it's probably the right answer. But I'd feel more satisfied if we could draw a bright line and really quantify everything.
I would say that Boy A doesn't need to ask Boy B's permission. Letting Boy B know his intentions probably would be a good idea. Another good idea might be to wait and pray about this for a bit, since the right guy will end up with the right girl no matter what if they're both depending on God. These are just ideas though. I'm not in the situation, nor do I know the specifics.
There are no specifics, it's purely hypothetical. Good perspective, though.
Yes, you should ask her out. And no you dont need to feel guilty - but tell your buddy first, cause he's your buddy.
I guess I am the dissenting voice. He should ask for his friend's blessing. If the friend declines, then he has a tough decision to make. Regardless, it's my opinion that friends come first unless you're talking about a gonna-marry-this-girl kind of attraction.
Oh wait... I misread part of it. It depends entirely on who announced their infatuation first. If Boy A did, then he needn't ask for permission. If Boy B did, then he does.
One more clarification (sigh, I'm probably going to have to do a full post on it), I believe that it would be pretty crummy for Boy B to forbid Boy A from asking her out unless he is absolutely crazy about her.
It depends on who likes her first? What about the girl? Doesn't she have a say in it? Doesn't the fact that she likes Boy A count for anything?
Well, I'll say most of the time the girl picks the boy, not the other way around ! If she has made her mind, nothing is going to stop her.
I have posted my more complete response.
Boy A asking boy B for permission isn't about girl A at all, that is why it does not dehumanize her. Boy A asking boy B is about their friendship, so if they are true friends and they care for each other, then boy A won't want to spoil that for a girl he doesn't even know, and boy B won't want to stop his friend from possibly finding a spouse. Girl A isn't restricted, boy A is the one restricting himself out of respect for his friend.
Also, girl A should take note that boy A cares about his good friend, and that is a great quality to find in a boy. Things could change and if boy B changes his mind (read: finds girl B) then boy A could persue girl A if she is still interested. And if she is, then his caring for his friend has made him more attractive.
I've seen this situation come up time and again. The girls out there may not believe this, but we guys are extremly loyal to each other -- almost to a fault. What you don't want to happen here is to lose a friend (is that proper English? It just didn't sound right.)
That being said, I can't tell you what the easy way out of this is. It seems kinda crummy that Boy B didn't give his approval, Boy A may want to talk to him and let him know that Girl A doesn't care for him in that way. At the same time, Boy A wants to move forward with Girl A, so she doesn't lose interest. I've kicked myself for waiting too long.
Sorry, there's no clear answer.
I suppose it depends also on Boy A's intentions. If he's just seeing Girl A as another meaningless hook-up, then he isn't sacrificing that much by staying away from her. But if he really does know her and likes her a lot, then it doesn't seem reasonable for him to throw that away because his friend is jealous.
That's the key. Boy B is being jealous, and that's wrong.
Boy B is a big baby. Probably a loser too. And ugly, and with poor hygiene. But even if he's the greatest guy around, and Girl A is the real idiot here, it's immaterial. The idea that anyone should ask for permission to date someone who wants to date them just because it would disrupt a third partys fantasy world is completely absurd. I mean to sound as indignant as possible because this is truly ridiculous. Heck, even if Boy A decides like a fool to ask for permission, and does not get it due to Boy B's psychosis, I'd say he's obligated to date the Girl if only to try to break Boy B of his delusions. Maybe Boy B will cry. I hope so!
Michael,
It doesn't solely come down to jealousy, though it very well might. If Boy B fell hard enough for Girl A, then it would put him in a really uncomfortable position to the point that he isn't as comfortable hanging around his friend. I had a friend who dated someone who annoyed the heck out of me and it would have cost our friendship a great deal if they'd gone out simply because I wouldn't be able to handle hanging around him with her. The same could be said for Boy B if his feelings for Girl A were strong enough that he was as hurt by her as I was annoyed by my friend's would-be girlfriend.
R. Alex,
Even if the reason for the cost to the relationship are annoyance or emotional pain instead of jealosy, that doesn't change the fact that these emotions are all on the part of Boy B, and are, assuming this Girl does not cause similar feelings in everyone on earth but Boy A. Boy B is being jealous, or annoyed, or "hurt", and none of these are justification for holding Boy A and Girl A apart.
Regardless, I think in the end there is no correct answer to this. It has everything to do with how you and your friends feel, not how I feel. I don't think I would be friends with someone who would be willing to end a friendship with me because I got the girl, and I know I wouldn't end a friendship because of it. Other people obviously will consider this to be a loyalty issue, or an issue of empathy, but I don't and can only know how I would act if the situation arose for myself. This, like most human relationships, does not lend itself to immutable laws.
If everyone is mature and real about it I am sure there would be no hard feelings. I would be seeking advice for the poor girl who has to choose between them, personally, I would choose neither and be friends with both..