Shia vs. Sunni

im a shia and im proud of it i believe our way of islam is the correct way but i also believe that the whole sunni/shia issue messed up islam

Saddam wasn't appointed as an Imam to begin with.. so the analogy is a lil flawed...

As for Shia folk.. they want a divinely appointed imam? like the pope?? i think by adhering to this sort of reasoning.. they're entirely dismissing the concept of the last prophet. There IS no more divine appointment.. of any sort. get over it.

I dunno but this reminds me too much of the Brahmins in India and their supposed superiority.

I don't like how histry books are one sided in their opinions of shia/sunni issues. Also...according to many sources, Muhammad TOLD 300 PEOPLE ALI WAS TO BE THE NEXT CALIPH!!! The reason Ali wasnt @ the meeting was because he was making funeral arangements fot the prophet. Doesnt that make sense? I mean seriously..what would you be doing if a close relative of yours died? Competeing for his position or mourning??? History books make me feel like Shias are bad savage, backwards, uneducated people who bring their little children and wives to a battle...actually the jihad that hussain fought against Yazeed wasnt supposed to involve so mych violence towards the children but obviously, yazeed was REALLY cruel and so happened the tragedy of Karbala. If any1 reading this is a History teacher, PLEASE look into this and explain it to ur classes...this is is RAELLY VERY important to many shia and i am almost 100% sure i speak for all of us with my argument. Thank you.

Anon: I'd love to read some history of the situation you describe. Can anyone post a link?

I think a muslim is a muslim, a man is a muslim brother, a women is a muslim sister, we all believe in 1 god who is allah, we all believe in our last prophet muhammed (A.S) and we all believe in the holy qu'aran. We shouldn't spill muslim blood over the Shia/sunni thing, even though I am shia, and I did as much research and im 100 % sure our beliefs are correct about the imam... this still shouldnt result in muslims vs muslims, that is exactly what the white persons want us to think, because in reality, it is the only hope they have in destroying islam, to make the 2 sides fight.

A: Why would us "white persons" hope to destroy Islam?

"his still shouldnt result in muslims vs muslims, that is exactly what the WHITE persons want us to think, because in reality, it is the only hope they have in destroying islam, to make the 2 sides fight."

well well well... what do we have here, a RACIST
that is not white? how is that possible! oh my
=0 this desturbs the world order,, a NON white being racist? this simply can not be =x

This question is to Ammar on previous post....

17.71 One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least......
Is a living guide not a neccesity to the Ummah?

The difference between shia and sunni is that shias belvieved the twelve imams were divinly appointed. The sunnis believed the first twelve were elected. Both sides viewed Imam Ali and Imam Hussain as imams and both sides believe Imam Mahdi will be the last. Sunnis and Shias have there differences but they both believe in the battle of Karbala and they both believe in the Prophet (saw). My mother is sunni and my father is shia.

Reffering to the comment above I meant sunnis belived the fist four calaphits were elected, and they believe in Ali, Hussain and the Mahdi alike, sorry for the misunderstanding.

You Sunnis and Shia keep fighting amongst yourselves, that way non-muslims can live peacefully while you destroy each other.
-Muski

“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast
no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the
end tell them the truth of all that they did.” [Qur’an 6:159]

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for
you), and be not divided among yourselves…" - Qur'an [3:103]

“Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into
disputations after receiving Clear Signs…” [Qur’an 3:105]

“My Lord! Vouchsafe me wisdom and unite me to the righteous.” [Qur’an 26:83]

Shia are Non Muslims , Hanbali , shafi , hanfi scholars had already issued fatwas against these
shia kaffir who said Imam has knowledge of un seen Like God and prophets read the books of shias name -Alkaffi m Jalaul Eon etc by Shia scholars and Alkafi is a blessed book among shias!
They should sentence to death they are bastards and mother fuckers . and All Shia aimas commited suicide if we just check their narrations when a imam known un seen and if his wife is offering him a poisoned food why he took that if he has knowledge of Unseen ?

They abuse the Father in Laws of Prophet Mohamamd s.w , they abuse his wives so how can they be muslim ? they are real mother fuckers and their killing is permisssible in islam and check www.kr-hcy.com for more details where we exploited their KUFFARIA Believes

FUCK OF SHIAS U R REALLY BASTARDS even they disrespect thier own imam Ali they curse their own imam and if u dont believe check www.kr-hcy.com

Fuck shias

sipah sahaba showed their reluctant behavior, mind u abusing is not permitted in islam as the ssp does, who r u to give fitwas that shias are not muslim, He is only ALLAH who will decide who is true muslim,either shia or sunni, we shia's beLieve on oneness of ALLAH and on his prophet Huzrat MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and on 12 imams.we believe that we are muslims.we do not abuse others , we also think that sunnis are also muslims.

shia's hate some of the greatest ppl in islam and think that us sunnis do aswel!

who the fuck are you calling shia kaffir! look who is talking. you call us kaffir where is your god dam proof asshole you have no proof at all don't you know shia people believe in ALLAH and his messanger Huzrat MUHAMMAD (PBUH)and the holly quran and the judgement day and yet you sunni mother fuckers call us kaffir you ignorant stupid son of a bitch I really don't have a problem with sunnis because it is upto God almighty to judge who is right and who is wrong but when sunnis accuse the shia as kaffir it makes my blood boil. God almighty chose Huzrat MUHAMMAD (PBUH) to be the prophet and only ALLAH has the right to choose who will replace him after his death not the poeple because God knows better not the people if people were so smart and good to elect Huzrat MUHAMMAD's (PBUH)successor God wouldn't send Huzrat MUHAMMAD (PBUH) to guide them in the first place. But you sunnis believe that some ignorant people's election are more important than God's word you people go against God's word and elect whoever you feel is the right person to succeed prophet (PBUH) that is where you sunnis went wrong by not accepting God's choice for Huzrat MUHAMMAD's (PBUH)successor. If God chose Abu bakar to instead of Ali I would follow abu bakar if God chose umar instead of Ali I would follow umar but God chose Ali because he was capable for the job to lead islam not abu bakar or anybody else. Now fuck sunnis and their fucking fatwas about killing shia people just because they are shia you ignorant stupid mother fuckers don't you know that killing an innocent person just because he is shia is the biggest sin there is. anyone sunni who kills a man just because he is shia is buying himself a one way ticket to eternal hell you better believe it samething is true for for a shia person if a shia man kills a sunni just because he is sunni he is going to hell for sure because nobody has the right to take someone else's life only God Almighty has the right to do so. and yet there are ignorant stupid sunnis so called
scholars issuing fatwas to kill shia people if they were scholars they wouldn't be sunni in the first place. What the fuck! a sunni mother fucker kills a shia person just because he is shia and expects to go to heaven what kind a logic is that? even if a person is non muslim and he is an atheist (one who doesn't believe in God) still no one has the right to kill him just becasue he is kaffir but unfortunately there are igorant sunnis I have heard that kills a non muslim person for no reason and he believes he has done a good deed and he is proud that he killed a kaffir but he doesn't realizes that he will go to hell instead. God gave human beings the freedom of will to choose if he believes in God or not who fuck are you taking his life for not believing in God? the only time you have the right to kill a kaffir if he tries to kill you. If killing kaffirs were a good thing then when Huzrat MUHAMMAD (PBUH) became prophet he should have killed all the kaffirs but instead he invite them to truth and justice and conviced them by talking not by sword. now if a sunni thinks that shia is kaffir don't you think it is more rewarding if you can convert him or her to sunni rather than killing him. another thing sunni mother fuckers are the enemy of Huzrat MUHAMMAD's family his dauther huzrat fatima and imam hussain and imam Ali or the least they are very disrepectiveful of them what kind of muslim are you? How could Huzrat MUHAMMAD (pbuh) shafahat you in qyamat? Shame on you sunni mother fuckers for disrespecting Huzrat MUHAMMAD's family. and finally leave shia people alone follow your own fucking religion don't bother us we don't bother you you go your way we go ours. if you are a true muslim you are suppose to follow quran . show me where in holly quran says to kill shia I dare you sunni mother fuckers. By the way if anybody have a comment or suggestion my email address is Soraya_bahar@yahoo.com

This message if to the shameless sunni who thinks his "SUNNI" religion EVERY single muslim believes in the ghadeer time when the prophet muhammed (SAW)raised mola ali on his shoulders and said the most famous hadith in the world there ever will be "man qunto mola fahaza ali un mola" if you do not believe this you are kaafir

You sunni think because you are the majority of islam ur on the right path well if you read the quran WITH YOUR EYES OPEN it says that most people will be on the wrong path and most people will be big headed about knowing everything when they dont know anything i dnt have the aya at this very moment but i can provide the aya or ask one of your big headed and big bearded mullas

Bar umer laanat

Ya Ali Madad 2 all momeneen

Being of the al-Mahdi/al-Massara clan, I have to agree with Mohsin. I am not too involved with the ongoing rivalry bewteen Sunnis and Shia, but I must fall in agreement with my ethnic and tribal lines, aside from the fact that we all know which side Saddam Hussein was on.

Salaam (peace)to all Students of knowledge:

i am a jafary person what they call the shia version of islam and i would like to highlight what is the main difference between the shia and sunnie religions:

the main difference between the Shia and other sects is in the bases (osool aldeen) or (fundementals of the religion). in history whenever a religion split into sects it was because of a difference arising in the fundementals of the religion.

the "osool aldeen" in the shia belief are 5 major beliefs and each human is required to be convinced about these fundementals from his/her logic and not by imitation. thats why you see the shia scholars say "imitation in the fundementals is forbidden" because it becomes blind folowing.

the problem with all religions including the sunnie sect is that they imitate in the fundementals. thats why thier fundemental base collapsed and they started giving god properties which are not his (exactly the same as the problem that the christianity faced).

the fundementals of islam are
1) Tawheed (gods oneness or unity or monotheism)
2) Adl (gods impartiality or justice)
3) Ma'aad (gudgment and return to god)
4) Nuboah (prophet hood)
5) Imamah ( the successorship, its the same idea as the prophethood, so these humans are infalliable and responsible for communicating gods instructions (the details of the religion)to us but they dont come up with a new religion or rules so they are not prophets but they just confirm message of the prophet.

the shia derive the idea of infailibility from thier fundemental number 2 which sates god is fair.
if god is fair the earth should never be empty from at least one (if not more) of infailible humans who communicates gods instructions and the details of the releigion to the humans so the humans have no execuse over god (they cant tell him we didnt know)because he has communicated the message to them and the link between god and the humans has not been cut.

this beleif is becasue us ordinary humaans are not required to understand the details of the rleigion by ourselves and we are allowed to imitate the human who know it and thats the idea of taqleed "imitation" . we are however required to get to the fundementals by our own logic without copying anyone and this means as a hypothetical example IF the prophet said to us there are two gods we will not take from him because thats a base and no imitation in the bases but if he says to us anything that is in the details we must obey blindly for example if he says " drink alchohol we must do so without questions" but if he says god is not fair or this life has no meaning there is no gudgment which he will never say , we must reject.

the reason for blindly following the prophet is because prophethood is from the bases and since we are certain in the bases that he is a prophet then we trust the quraan and trust what he says.

so the authenticity of the quraan doesnt come from the quraan itself and the authenticity of the rleigion comes from the bases and from the prophet.

the main difference between the shia and the sunni beleif is in the first fundemental of islam " tawheed"
the shia belive that gods unity means that he cant be partitioned or limited or seen because then he will be a creature due to the fact that he will not be infinate.

the sunnies however beleive that god will be seen in gudgment day and he is partitioned in the sense that he has hands and foot and fingures and forms in the shape of human. they also say his foot has size and god raises,goes up , gos down, moves, runs so he is bounded by dimentions and he has a size.

the problem that the sunnies fall in is exactly the same as the problems that the christians fell in by shaping god. the reason being if we cant differentiate between the creator and the creature then all our beleif colapses.
if we beleive god has shape and size and can be partitioned or bound by limitations or has a shape which in physics menas he has boundries then that is not god anymore that is a creature so the god that the chritians and the sunnies pray for is another god aand he is limited and he is not god he is a creature and they cant proove otherwise because if a queestion is raised to them "who created your god" they cant answer.

for me to make this useful i will quote what i said. when i said sunnies beleive in these ideas i dont mean to generalize but i mean the scholaars of these schools belive in it and the ones who made this rleigion belive in these ideas.

in sahih bukhari they ask the prophet can we see god he says yes you can see him with your bear eyes just like you see the sun in a good day (look in tawheed section)

also in bukhari he says god comes down from heaven to the heaven of earth every friday night to acccept more prayers,

also in the same book he says that they keep putting evil people in hell and it keeps saying i want more but when god puts his foot in hell hell will say " oh enough" in an attempt to say gods foot is big!!!!! but he doesnt know that by his attempt to praise god he is limiting and giving god foot and shape

these are the ideas of the main scholars that created this sect.

if you compare this with the ideas of the 12 infailibles of the shia imams you will see in the words of the first imam " imam ali ibn aby talib" that " whoever says where has made him into more than one (destroyed his unity) and whoever makes him more than one has partitioned him and whoever partitioned him has limited him and however limited him comited the shirk" if my memory is not wrong but you can refer to thier words in his book nahjulbalagha

this study might take long but i wont go any deeper except if some one is interested can communicate by email or on this posting link

this study is not meant to drive hate between sects but is meant to try to allow them to establish common grounds and tolerate eachothers belif wether they are christians or jews or muslims like this we can have a better world i dont think anyone will disagree
i hope it was constructive (execuse my english)

The above set of statements regarding Sunni beliefs is highly and grossly incorrect. For example, you have written:

"the sunnies however beleive that god will be seen in gudgment day and he is partitioned in the sense that he has hands and foot and fingures and forms in the shape of human. they also say his foot has size and god raises,goes up , gos down, moves, runs so he is bounded by dimentions and he has a size."

Sunnis do NOT believe this AT ALL. This is a blatant LIE. Any notion of human characteristics/features given here are meant for humans to comprehend, and does not mean Allah(swt) actually has such human features. It is a very strict belief in sunni beliefs that Allah(swt) can not be prescribed any human characteristic at all

Salaam & Ya Ali Madad.Oh this is WICKED! Sunnis and shias slagging each other off it's like a school fight in the playground. Can I join in? I would like to start by saying Muawiah is the Bastard son of Hinda the liver eater whose dad was Abu Sufyaan.But Abu Sufyan wasn't his REAL dad because he didn't know who his wife screwed around with in the days of Jahiliyyat ( when Abu Bakr used to worship the stone idols )and I'm only being polite when I say that she is the bitch grandmother of Yazid the sixth Sunni khalifa. Anyway. I do not wish to insult female dogs by naming them Hinda so I shall ask pardon from all dog owners. However. I am now at a loss as to which words I should use to insult Muawia's cousin Uthman, the 3rd Sunni Khalifa so I shall use the word pig.He was a KHANZIR. Why the PIGGING hell did this Sunni Caliph give governership of Syria to the fucking bastard son of a Harami Jahil Muawiah? Is it because he was GHANI ie kind and soft hearted? Which LALLOO gives the title of GHANI to the person who paved the way for Imam Husseins Shahadat? Oh you Sunnis. Take your Sahabis and ur 1st 3 Khalifas and shove them hard up ur backside if they are so precious to you. The only thing they were good for was fitna and killing; at the battles of Jamal and of Siffeen there is CLEAR Hypocrisy but u fuckers want to hand out fucking tea and biscuits to the blasted murderers.

Muawia's a bastard.
My friends can u not see?
Muawia's a bastard
'cause he waged war on Ali.
Muawiah he is the cousin
of that man Uthman
whom you Sunni fuckers
took as ur own third Imam.
Today it is the day of Ghadir
and I know it hurts
When some sahaba got the news
they sweated in their shirts
If it had happened in THIS time
I’d surely have it taped
Their plan to take the Caliphate
had somewhat gone pear shaped

Because

Today’s the anniversary
Of when The Prophet said
Of whomever I am Leader
Ali’s also Head
And he said it at Ghadir
where all the Hajji’s met
On the eighteenth of Zillhajj
The time, the place was set.

Muslims, Tens of thousands
watched and listened on that day
as Mohammed raised the hand of Ali
for to say
Ali IS the Maula
of whomever that I am
But in the heart of UMAR
lay a dirty rotten scam

seething like a snake he
writhed up to Imam Ali
congratulating him
as the successor of Nabi
Rasoolullah. But in his heart
was pain just at the thought
he’d not receive a penny
of the Khums. He had been caught

out by the command of Allah’s
Wish for Mohammad
To tell the Muslim Ummah
At Ghadir, the once young Lad
Who had embraced Islam
at the beginning, at the start
Was now to be the leader.
Of Islam he is the heart.

Imam Ali is the True immediate spiritual AND political successor to THE LAST PROPHET.

Wow, I found this site by asking Google for the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims; especially since I have lived in Muslim countries and didn't know what type they were.

From what I've seen here, the split came many centuries ago, and the two branches will never come together again. The split seems so trivial to an outsider, yet there is dripping, vehement hatred between the two factions, based on some obscure academic difference. The difference is so obscure that the contributors from both sides don't seem to even be able to agree on what the difference is. Rather, I read condemnation and the vilest of insults, instead of some attempt to understand the differences.

Not that my Christian heritage is any better, and Northern Ireland is a modern day example of that. In that conflict, I've determined that the religious differences are of little or no concern on either side. Those differences are rather just an excuse to battle over political and economic differences. Things that effect peoples incomes and freedom, rather than what they hear in church.

In the case of Northern Ireland, I think it's more tribalism than religion. For those that don't know, the Northern Irish Protestants were originally Scot immigrants, while the Catholics are indigenous Irish. The battles started over the English backed Scot immigrants getting better economic treatment from their English lords. Perhaps that's somewhat similar to the roots of the present Sunni-Shia hatred situation in Iraq.

As for ascribing killing and torture as being condoned by God, that's pure perversion. God made Adam & Eve in His image, and we are all God's children... unless Satan turns us away from His love.

Isn't it obvious that if a person condones killing others, he's lost touch with God? If a clergyman condones killing others, merely because they believe differently, hasn't that clergyman lost touch with God? Is his teaching from God or Satan?

Sipah needs a reality check. How could he possibly know the things he accuses ALL Shia of?
Did he learn that in his mosque? Who is he listening to that spouts such idocy and hatred? That doesn't come from God! He taught peace, love and living together in harmony, even with those you don't agree with.

My experience while living in Muslim countries has been one of mutual respect and hospitality, not hatred and violence. That's why I'm so surprised to see such roiling animosity between the world's two largest sects of Islam.

After reading the submissions, I still don't understand the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims, but I'm getting the impression that the Sunni are definately more oriented towards blind violence, and that's what's happening in Iraq right now.

That seems a bit odd to me, since I'm a non-denominational Christian, and from what I saw of the religious differences between Shia and Sunni, I would characterize the Sunni as closer in theological structure to Christian Protestants, while the Shia are more structured like the Catholics. That point being that Jesus said "none are worthy, no man is worthy and all have sinned", and hence, Protestant Christians ascribe no divinity to any man, while Catholics believe the Pope is God's priest on earth.

So what about the Pope and priesthood? Jesus' apostle said to "call no man 'Father'", meaning no man is an intermediary between us and God - except for Jesus Himself. That's why Christians pray "in Jesus' name".

salam alykum i would just like to stress how imature and childish some people are, whats goin on here i read the messages and my heart sinks, is this how muslims treat other muslims and btw the following www.kr-hcy.com is very bias and most of it is based on the persons opinions, although i am a sunni at this moment of time i believe that this website (www.kr-hcy.com) is not true. However i have a question to my shia brothers and sisters, i have been searching for the right path for many months, i will be marrying a shia brother and ofcourse this has motivated me to do research, but still to this day the imamat concept is very confusing for me and as a much as i try to open my mind and analyse it the more i find it too vague, read this article....http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how_to_approach_the_shia_brother.htm tel me wat u think about it. Thnx guys ...now chill will you all imagine the prophet muhammed (pbh) was alive now wud he fight like this?? i think he wil cry many tears to see the muslim ummah floating apart like so...may Allah guide us all to the right path maslamah

It seems like the webiste i addresd before hasnt actualy come up on the screen fully so here it is again ......have a read tel me what u think about it,its long but its worth reading:

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how_to_approach_the_shia_brother.htm

that end word says "brother.htm"

Since the last post, I read some more sites about the differences between Sunni and Shia Muslims, and I admit, I'm more confused than ever. I suspect that most Muslims are just as confused. I see arguments between both sides quoting a plethora of hadiths that contradict each other. With such confusion, how is any Muslim expected to know "the truth".

Within both major branches, there are a large number of sub-sets, and within these subsets of Sunni and Shia, the subsets call anyone not within their group Kafirs. Wahabi, Salifa, etc., if you aren't within the local group, you are a Kafir. What idiocy!

Throughout the last 10 to 20 centuries, almost all governments were theocracies, and when you have clergy leading government, the powerful theologians create "rules" to keep themselves in power. It has happened in both Islam and Christianity. It was the source of the Muslim expansion and the Christian crusades, where political and economic power was more important than a proper relationship with God and His will.

As a Christian, I look at what Jesus said and did. Jesus spent more time condeming hypocrasy and the Pharasees than anything else. The Pharasees where the Jewish priesthood ruling class who made up the rules for the "lay" people. The primary reason for the edicts that the Pharisees decreed was to simply ensure their own power and riches. The Pharasees where the elite clergy who put on a "pure" public face, while privately living in riches and sin.

Any theocracy will fall prey to that situation. Ambitious people will don a cloak of piety to gain power over the masses, while indulging in the perks of power.

As for my use of the term "Jews", don't we all stem from the Judeans? I read in several of the Arab news sources that the Islamic conflict with Jews is not with Jews, but with Zionists. Well, I suppose that is beyond the scope of this Shia-Sunni thread.

My hope in the current Iraqi situation is that the Shia majority in Iraq doesn't become a theocracy like Iran. There has never been a successful or affluent theocracy in all of the world's recent history, whether the theocracy is Catholic or Muslim. Theocracies subject the people to slavery and fear, and the recent Taliban control Afghanistan is great example.

look at ur language you should be ashamed of your selfs wat will the non muslim think of us we should not judge any one and leave it for the only true judge.may allah have mercy on us all. walakam asslam

Salaam

To all the shia who contributed with swear words, you are no better than Muawiyah (la ) and to all the sunnis who love Muawiya (la). Keep in mind that the real Amir al mu'mineen (as) says : " If one loves even a rock, ALLAH will place him with that rock on the day of judgement " . So if you want to be placed with the one who faught the Imam of his time, then keep loving Muawiya (la) and may ALLAH place you with him his father and his son. And May ALLAH place the ones who love Imam Ali ibn Abi Taleb (as) with him his father Abu Taleb (ra) his sons and his Mentor The Messenger of ALLAH (Salla ALLAHu alaihi wa aalihi wa salam)

Wassalaamu ala man itaba3 al huda.

reading the comments that sunnis wrote, it seems they have no point and no sources of anything to back up their opinions. Most sunnis are IGNORANT, and believe that the 3 khalifas are as-hab el nabi (S)...one question...how does abu baker get to be the khalifa after the nebi (S)??? when Ali lived all his life with the prophet and knows him the MOST and hes the one that saved the prophets life was one of the first people to believe in him..another strong POINT that shias have against sunnis...is that when the prophet M (S) and his followers were going to MEKA, he stopped everyone and told them that ALI will be his "waly"..Sunnis say WALY means a friend, and shias believe that it means a successor or leader...WHY WOULD HE STOP all those thousands of people, WHEN THEIR ALL FRIENDS TO TELL THEM THAT ALI IS HIS FRIEND??? THINK ABOUT IT???

Another thing, ALLAH mentions AHEL el bet in the quran...theres an AYA on that, and we SHIAS believe that its of course talking about the prophet's family, his daughter fatimat el zahraa, ALi , zayneb, hassan, hussan abbas and many more...however the SUNNIS believe its about abu baker and them...could they get any more ignorant than that??

when u talk to several sunni sheikhs about the quran, each one will tell u something different, and tell u theres many meanings to it...when u talk to different shia sheikhs they will tell the exact samething each one said...

so many sunnis are converting to shia, have u ever seen a shia going to sunna?

Sunni leaders are NOTHING BUT DOGS, teaching people that killing shias will lead them to heaven? what kind of thinking is this? do shias say killing sunnis will make us go to heaven? NO,why because we follow the quran, and its haram to kill anybody, and if u think shias are KUFAR, leave it to the day of the JUDGMENT where ALLAH decides NOT U..

ALL U SUNNAS WILL NOT GO TO HEAVEN, U KNOW WHY? BECAUSE EL IMAM ALI WILL BE STANDING AT THE GATE, ANYBODY THAT HAS NEVER VISITED THE AYEMA WILL NOT be allowed...

One sunni sheikh that lived in NY, or somewhere in America, his entire life all spent it reading the quran and doing good for people..and everyone expected him to go to heaven, he never commited any sins of any sort...he was old and died, his oldest son, had a dream that he saw him, but he wasnt in heaven nor hell, and he asked him why he didnt go to heaven, he said son, i didnt go because i never visited the ayema...this actually a TRUE story and everyone knows about it...the next day his son, went to iraq to visit the ayema and quickly adopted the shia beleives and rituals...

one sheikh in SAUDI arabia, hes VERY well known, he does TAJWEED of the quran and we have his cassetts too...he became shia after studying and reading about it...in saudi arabia they cut him into little peaces and ATE him..thinking they did the right thing, and they will go to heaven!!

OPEN UR MINDS SUNNIS!!!!!!!!

salaam (peace) to all students of knowledge

allah says in the quraan that the people of heaven are very little population. we may claim to be shia but shia is a high level which very little people reach.

we might see our sunie or christian brothers in the wrong but what help would cursing thier holy gods will bring to the situation if we are truly hoping for them to be guided.
if we think of them as a sick people how does a doctor treat the sick by keeping on telling him that he is sick???? and giving no cure???

do we as shia understand tawheed?

just like "billy" said, in many cases people tend to use religion to combat the others thinking of it as a footbal match.
its not a footbal match and in many cases people defend the religion not because they want to defend the truth but they want to defend themselves.

so in many cases people say, my religion is better than yours or my race is better than yours or my country is better than yours or my way of life is better than yours. alegedly these people are defending the truth that they believe they are folowing but in reality when you study thier phsychology you see that they are only defending themsleves . the ultimate desease called selfishness.

if we are defending the truth we must question what we have and allow ourself to open up to what the other side has but we tend to close our mind on everything and be happy with what we have. this attitude is not defending islam or defending shia its defending oursleves

lets try to get out of these deseases and start defending the truth where ever it is wether its for us or against us as god says in the quraan.

let us stop defending our evil self when she commits the crime. let us concentrate on ourselves more than we concentrate on the others.
the best of us are those who know themsleves and are able to stop the evil self from commiting crimes and attacking other people's rights.

the prophet says the BIG jihad is fighting the self

my self allways tends to push me to attack others not for the reason of defending truth but for the reason of prooving to myself that i am right or good to satisfy my sick desire of selfishness.

if we keep going like this the earth will collapse like god said.

Salaam

Ibraheem i am not lieing and i am not saying all sunnies belive god is partitioned and could be seen but i said the people who created the sunnie sect believe in these ideas and the millions of sunnies around the world imitate them, we might have a sunnie who rejects these ideas but that is regarded a reballion against the scholars of the sunah and teh rleigion and is not representative of the sunnie thought.

in other terms the ones who represent the sunnie thought are not people like you its the actual scholars like the four schools or ibn taymya or ibn wahab because they are the authorities on the sunnie religion

many sunnies reject alot of things in their religion and this is not a surprise due to the amount of contradiction in the books that claim to be saheeh and 100% right. for example ill give you one example

the sunnie scholars all agree that the sahaba are all good people and saying any thing bad abut them is evil and takes the human out of islam

on the other hand we had sahabah who fought and kileld eachother or fought wars aagainst eachother how does this work?

in bukharie the prophet says " swearing at a muslim is fosooq (evil) and fighting him is kufr (rejection)"

and we had aisha wage war against imam ali by the admition of all sects
and the sunnies say both aisha and ali are good people!!!! what a religion that leads two good people to kill eachother? if this is the islam that you want me to follow then no thank you

also othman teh third khalifa was killed by the sahabah including mohamad ibn abubakr the son of abubakr

the sunnies define sahaba as anyone who meets the prophet regardless of the age or time and the only condition they put is that the person must claim to be muslim. [ibn hijr alasqalaany al isabah fee tameez alsahaba]

what makes all these poeople good and the best nation and we must take our religion from them?

plus in the 11th year of hijra (imigration) all the islamic nation became sahaba even the kids because the prophet used to m,eet all the newborns. then all the hypocrites were sahabah too because the hypocrites are from amongest the muslims and claim islam and god condemns them alot in the quraan and he says they are in the lowest grade in hell.

the big question is are the hypocrites sahabah??

according to the sunnie defenition os sahabah they definatly are and unfortunatly the age of the prophet just like all ages the majority of people werre the hypocrites just like god says in the quraan and thats why they ignored the prophets message after his death jusst like what they did to musses.

shias are not on true path i pray for them Allah in Sub ko hidayat dai (Ameen)

shias are not on true path i pray for them Allah in Sub ko hidayat dai (Aameen)

I, like indobillybob, stumbled upon this site when searching online. I just started to study middle eastern culture and history at my university and I simply wanted to gather more understanding to keep up with class discussions. Everything I'm learning is very new to me and I haven't studied Islam yet. Unfortunately what I gather about Islam from my friends that are muslim sometimes confuse me as much as these posts! I thank Ali Mirza, Billybob and anyone else contributing to thoughtout and respectful dialgoue. I agree with everything billybob has said and I am curious what the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity are. I am embarrassed to ask this because I feel like I should know... but... I'm asking anyways.

Hello again brothers (and sisters)

About the Sunni vs. Shi'a controversy, after sufficient reading here and elsewhere, I have made up my mind about what that amounts to.

Can I get so basic as to compare a Heavenly Father with an earthly one? What does an earthly father wish for his children? Does he wish for his children to rob, defile, torture and murder his siblings? Does he wish for his children to live in poverty? Does he wish for his children to live with hearts filled with hatred?

That's what I see here in much of the Shi'a Vs. Sunni controversy, and that's also what I see from the radical terrorists. Is any of that from God?

What would Satan want from his children? Hatred, murder, torture, poverty, lies and misery are the fruit of Satan, and what he would want from his followers?

Who is God prospering? Who is He pleased with? Certainly there are leaders in every society who prosper, but what societies are prospering? A loving Father will do what He can to help his children prosper. Just a hint here! Have you ever thought of that? I know how dangerous that is to consider in Muslim societies, but why is that so?

Let me give you a few verses from the book of Jude (10-13)in the New Testament about the messengers from Satan, church leaders, who mislead the people:

• Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals - these are the very things that destroy them
• Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
• These men are blemishes at your love feasts,eating with you without the slightest qualm - shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown by the wind; autumn trees without fruit and uprooted - twice dead.
• They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Even though a Muslim would not accept any verses from the Christian Bible, those verses are pretty decriptive of the hypocrisy of religious leaders who are guided by Satan, rather than God, whatever text or verses you believe.

If your Masjid, Mosque, Temple or Church is teaching the philosophies and behavior that comes from Satan, rather than the love that God has for his children, maybe you aren't getting God's message where you pray. Satan's favorite place to be is in the Churches, Temples and Mosques, where he can distort the word of God.

The Christian view is this:

• Love God with all your heart.
• Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Those two simple statements from Jesus cover the whole essance of all of the laws. If one can follow those two simple laws every day, there would be no more hatred and discord between societies.

Simple, easy, and also a philosphy that allows one to sleep well every night.

Salaam (students of knowledge)

the fundemental difference between islam and christianity is the same as the fundemental difference between shia and sunnah. its all differences in the bases of the religion.

the differnce lies in the most fundemental base of all religions. monothism or ( god's divine unity)

as mr billy has said the mosque and church is satans favourite place also the monk and shaikhs the satan's main clients because the word of god is meant to be delivered to the people from them.

satan has very smart stratigies of destroying the religions from thier bases. satan is not strong enough to stand conventionally against the bases of religion and deny them because no one will obay him. he uses the attack from within strategy.
so far all religions have been attacked from within and thier bases got destroyed with the help of the human selfishness and lack of knowledge.

the main base that all prophets came to give to humans is the base of everything so satan has decided to destroy it in chritianity and islam and judaism.
all the prophets came to give the message of "monothism". the understanding of monothism is that god is infinite and un describable.
teh christians first broke this when they claimed that jesus is god himself or part of god but they took him out of the context of being a creature.
jesus the man was limited creature by the witness of all, he was a man that used to walk and eat and bounded by materialistic dimentions.

if we say he is god then we are claiming that god can have a shape, and having a shape as well known in physics as having boundries because the boundries create the shape. having boundries is having limits and when you have limits you cant be god anymore.

some say "but god is infinatly powerful and can do anything" the answer is yes he can do anything except contradict himself. he is good can he be bad?
he is alive can he kill himself?
he is one can he be two?

when we say jesus is part of god we have done similar to what the sunnies done and that is partitioning god. if god has parts then definatly he has start and end.if he has start and end then who created that alleged god himself???????
if he has start and end then definatly he has limitation and is bounded by dimentions. if he is bounded by dimentions then definatly he is not god but a creature.

if god forms in the shape of human like the christians and sunnies say then who created that god???? definatly that god has limited himself and contradicted the fact that he is unlimited. if he is limited then who created him?
if we say anotherr god created him with the same limited properties then who created the other god?? this chain keeps going and the only way to stop it is by ending it by one creator with the nonecreature like properties.

mr billy it is well agreed on that we should love our nnaighbour like we love ourselves and those basics but religion is a set of rules and a complete way of life. knowing that statement from t he bible doesnt tell me how to pray? how to do contracts? how to run government? how to make bank system?
the christian religion is dead unfortunatly and thats the reason why god sent another religion because the people changed it so much where thinsg were completely lost. islam is facing the same crises now but at least the rules are still there if you look for them eventhough many people misunderstand them thhats why when jesus returnes he will be folowing islam.

i knwo many peple will start shouting at me and say "no we dont limit god ... we dont say god is unfair" but my study is based on evidence and its your homework to go and study the difference in the idea of unity (tawheed) between the shia, sunni and christian and jewish religion.
if this base colapses the whole religion colapses because the whole religion is based on this one base.
if we break this base then we will say anything abuot god from being unfair to being weak to being limited to ..... being able to see him and so on until we find ourself worshipping a creature that cant do us any harm or good.
thats why abraham broke the idols, the idols can be humans can be anything that we worship other than god. abraham the father of all rleigions broke them to give a message of the divine unity to the world.

Assalamu aleikum wa rahmatu ALLAH wa barakatuh,

I am not shi'a, I am not sunni. By the way there is no sunni sect, it's just what non-shiites call themselves but it's a misnomer because shiites should be compored to shafii, hanbali and other mathahib followers . I am muslim, in english, totally submitted to God. I use the term sunni to describe my method of religious practice. I read these hateful posts and am reminded by a verse in the Quraan talking about how calling Abraham christian or jew is ludicrous since he was neither. Ali was not shiaa, Omar was not sunni, both should be admirable muslims. Islam is the message delivered by all prophets since the beginning of human life on earth and indeed its essentials are intuitive in all of us. Again it is inherent in Islam that there is no clergy only scholars and schools of thoughts. Differing practices and nuasences that spring from them should never be ridiculed. Cultural and self expression is part of what makes us humans either it be spartan or ellaborate ,it depends on individual perception of Truth. So why do I practice my faith as a muslim sunni? Two reasons, I was brought up that way and I choose to. God created us as creatures of reason, of concious choice. Wrong is easily and apparently discernable from right. But within the right who says what's right?(hee hee) Other "right" persons are not misguided or the sort, just their own take of right. For muslims there is Haram , Halal, and Mubah . As long as you keep the set of original rules intact and dont contradict it you can diverge , within boundaries of course. However there is good and there is better, which in turn is individualistic. My point is as humans we are relativley ignorant, only God is all-knowledgeable, just don't cross the red lines.And instead of turning against each other like a person with Lupus, we should heed the wolf packs that are pouncing on us and devouring us as we type messages on this board. God, some of those wolves are on this board itself.

sallam to all muslims

Cant you see what the perpose of this website is you blind brothers and sisters,dont fall in to the trap of the devil.
why do muslims argue,who was meant to be calipha,who cares iam a Muslim not a shia or sunni,anyone disputes that AbuBakr wasnt meant to be calipha is in dangerous grounds,why? because now your questioning ALLAHs dystany.
Did the great Ali question the calipha and if he did why didnt he do any thing about this.May Allah be pleased with AbuBakr and Ali.
1.Shia started after the prohphet(pbuh)
2.How can any dare to look at any other so called guided immam when we have the greatest,loved,guided,perfect,puire,and best Muslim Ever from ADAM(PBUH) TO MOHAMMAD(PBUH)
Mohammad (pbuh) was the last guided prophet and human beign he was the last and best examples that ALLAH the all mighty left.
3.The beloved prohpet Mohammed(pbuh) said i left 4.you The holy Quran and my Sunnah and you will never go astray.
ALLAH will question us why did you look at other examples other than Mohammed(pbuh) which I ALLAH had created him perfect????
brothers and sisters sites like this are evil and full of deciption lets UNITE UNDER ON UMBRELLA
ISLAM ISLAM ISLAM
And any one calls a person Kaffir must repent to ALLAH because the prophet(pbuh) never labbeld any person that called themselves a muslim,a Kaffir.

Lets follow what the prophet said
I HAVE LEFT YOU THE HOLY QURAN IN MY RIGHT AND MY SUNNAH IN MY LEFT AND MY NATION SHALL NEVER GO ASTRAY.

YOUR MUSLIM BROTHER
AMERISLAM

Salaam
we are here to learn. why do you come in and call us names? if you have proof bring it forward and stop running away from the truth because the truth will allways chase you even if you push it aside.

people who say we are not sunni and not shia but we are only muslims are in reality a third sect. they are called the "not shia not sunie" sect and are surely more misguided than all sects because their evidence is based on nothing.
in islam we have 6 main schools. jafary (shia), shafii, hanafi, hanbaly ,maliky and wahabi (or salafi).if you are none of these 6 then you have your own school tell us what school is it so we study your school and folow you if its right.
the prophet says "there will be 73 different sects all go to hell except for one of them" so dont try to deny that sects exist but try to find out which one is right because the truth does exist on earth and the truth is only one truth not hundred million conflicting truths.

different sect of islam is different version of islam just like different versions of christianity. all sects claim that they are folowing the steps of the prophet but each of them claims that the prophet has said different conflicting things.

the guy who is saying " whoever doubts that abubakr was khalifa is doubting gods destiny"

the answer is: if you doubt that the devil's action is bad you are also questioning gods destiny.

if i come now and hurt you also you should not defend yourself other wise you are doubting god'd destiny.

some muslims said wearing a seat belt in a car is also questioning god's destiny so they forbade seat belts.

this islam that you have is very far from the understanding that prophet mohamad came with.

one day a man left his cammel without tieing the rope and the prophet asked him " why didnt you tie it" he said i depend on god and dont question the destiny. the prophet told him " tie it first and depend on god and accept the destiny"

this is our understanding of destiny.
doesnt mean because abubakr won and took the rulership it means his good. because we have example of faroohs that also took the leaderships and they were not good people by the witnessing of the quraan.
does that mean we must accept the faroah because god chose for them to be powerful?????????
no no no god gives leadership to evil people to punish the nations.
"we test you in good and bad" quraan

"the curruption has come obvious in the seas and the dry , that is due to what the human actions to show them some of what they have done so that they may return" quraan

"in the last days the people become so bad that god will give leadership to the worse of them over them" prophet hadeeth

"mohamad is nothing but a messanger..... if he died or got killed u turned on your backs" quraan

for the man who is saying the relation between Abubakr and imam Ali was very good try to read saheeh muslim.

saheeh muslim- aljihad walsair- hukm alfaee

omar is talking to imam ali regarding the dispute that haappened about fadak. (the land that abubakr stole from fatima the doughter of the prophet under the execuse of "us the prophets dont inherite to any one")

he tells iam ali and abbas the uncle of the prophet: and when the prophet died abubakr said i am the leader and you both came , u asking for your inheratance from the prophet and this one (referring to imam ali) asking for his wifes inheratance from her father then abubakr said " the prophet has said us the prophets we dont inherate what we left over ..." and you two saw him a lier , an evil doer ,backstaber and traitor and allah knows he is a truthfuland good and .... then abubakr passed away and i am the successor of the prophet and abubakr and you saw me a lier an evil doer backstabber and traitor and god knows i am good person and .....

omars words proove that imam ali used to think of omar as a traitor and this is in the most authentic books of the sunnies saheeh muslim which should be a proove for them not for us because to us thier books are not authentic at all especially that many of thier narrators were from the nawasib who hated ahlulbait.
like bukhari narrates from "imran bin qahtan" the man who was very happy when imam ali was hit by his murderer and said a famous poem.
" oh what a hit that came from a faithful person who wanted gods satisfaction by his strike" refering to ibn muljim striking imam ali in the head.
people like bukharie are obviously political and bias and its very obvious how they hide the truth to serve thier own beliefs and desires.

we are here to learn and we wont accept blind flowing without studying and its never aa loss to discuss and share ideas. if the muslims understand the difference between them they can then unite but if they dnt understand the difference then they will be tricked by any one who has personal motive to drive hate between them.

sallam brother Ali
you are one of these blind muslim brothers aying that sunni is a sect and shia is a sect,well you can be from a sect which is can tell that your shia(which came after the greatest man prohpet(pbuh)I am a Muslim as the The Holy Quran state do not die unless you are in the state of Islam.that hadith that you referd to 73 and 1 will enter,that one is Islam brother.
why do you care you came in calipha,do you why muslims dont like the shia way,because your religon is based on these events and the people that put some much thought and effort in to this Area are the greatest Fitna to man,so my brother in Islam if you know what is better for you study your religon for your own benifet.
Dont base your religon on the so called "spritually giuded one"The great Imam Ali he was not,he was not perfect or "inflamable"sinless may Allah guide us.
The prophet that you claims to love and follows so much (pbuh)mohammad in many athuntic hadith talks so many great words of AbuBakr and Umar so why do you deiny the prohpets words(pbuh)
for the blind Shia out their even know my family and all my freinds are Shia Can you tell ME ALI WHAT WOULD OF CHANGED IF IMMAM ALI WOULD OF BEEN THE FIRST CALIPHA,did you thinks The quran would of been better???? or the hadith would of been better aquired???or that the nation of islam our ummah,know would of been 1.8 BILLION muslims???
you think that Imam Ali may ALLAH be pleased with him,do you think the religon of ALLAH would of changed or the Sunnah the russol(pbuh) would of changed?????
Imam Ali never stood up and declared any tension or war against the prophets(pbuh)companions AbuBakr or Umar may Allah be pleased with them,do you know why,they fear Allah and did not want to disapoint the greatest sinless,rightly guided Mohammad(pbuh).
YOU can call yourself a sect but iam only muslim and iam from the nation of moahmmad(pbuh).
and their is only 4reconised school of thoughts
Hanafi,shafii,malaki,hanbali, and unit 1998 Alazhar accept and made a international fatwa that shia's are muslim and that jaffari is a school of thought if followed correctly.
The great imam jaffari sadiq was a desecend from Abu Bakr and you deny the companion which the Holy Quran states and the prophet states(pbuh).
THE SAID i have left you 2 things The Quran in my right hand and my sunnah in my left,not Abubakr not Immam Ali so follow words PLEASE.
WE are from the nation of Mohammad(pbuh)no one else.....
One shall enter the paradise which is ISLAM,we are Muslims,the Quran states Islam,the prophet(pbuh)states islam.islam,islam,islam,islam not "shia" or "sunni" but if i was to choose will would be prefarbly called a sunni due to the reason the prophet(pbuh) used the word many many times.
I hope i havent offend any one
peace be upon the prophet his family and his Companions and after them.
Quick question why have you been named Ali have you got a older brother named Moahmmad already like me???

AmerIslam

Salaam to bro Amer and all
my brother's name is mohamad and ahmad and reza an i am ali. the hadeeth that talks about the 73 is aying " my natyion will devide into 73 groups onyl one will go to heaven" i have never heard of a school of thought called the school of thought of islam.
all the islamic sects are muslims they all claim to be muslims

but each of them has a differnt version of islam and differences in the aqeeda or osool aldeen (bases of the religion).

the prophet said " ali and his shia are the winners" you will find this in many sunnie books including "alsawaeq almuhraqah"
shia means folowers and supporters so if i am the shia of the devil then i am bad but if i am the shia of the prophet or the infailible imams then ill be from teh people of heaven if i truly represent thier true supporters.

the shia religion is not based on those events it has logical bases which have nothing to do with history but history comes in for the details of the religion .

the shia way is based on the truth and the true history and teh true sunnah of the prophet not the sunnah of bany umayah who changed the religion.
the reason why shia talk about those events is because the khilafa or imamah is a base from the bases of the religion. the rulership of earth to devine people is a base in the shia belief because we bel;ieve god is fair and he has the ultimate gudgment so he will never leave the earth for a period of time without appointing infailible ruler who communicates gods instructions to the humans perfectly. this leaves you and me with no execuse to folow a wrong religion or not folow gods instructions in life.
its a system.

the prophet never actually praised omar or othman and if he ever praised abubakr it would be because he bases his gudgment on what he has seen from them so far and until they havent commited the crime yet he cant mock them for some thing they havent done and he doesnt know what they will do.
but he was aware that they are evil and hypocrites and that is quite obvious towards the end of his life when he ordered all of them to join osmamah's army. you will find this in the history. he said "who ever doesnt join osamah's army is kafir" and he was sick at this time and the three didnt go to osamahs army under the execuse that they are too worried about his health. he knew that they are not going so teh khilafa doesnt fall in ali's hand because they already gave baiaa to ali in the last hajj of the prophet by the witnessing of more than 120 000 muslims.
the prophet was in the death bed and told them give me a pen and ink i will write a book for you that you will never be misguided after it.
omar said " leave the man the pain has over come him " [most sahih books] " the man is holusentating [ some other books] .
omar is saying the man is holusenating about the prophet and god says " he never talks from desire he is like an angel that is given the commands" Quraan alnajm 3

you are telling me these events are not important?????
you take all your religion from these evil peiople ??? how could it be not important???? you whole life is based on teh words of bany umayah who hated the prophet and allways cursed imam ali in the mosques for 250 years and your saying these events are not important of course they are .

they are not as important as tawheed and the bases of religion but they are important for the details of the religion.
osool aldeen was already covered by an article i posted previously scrool up and read it and try to know if your bases contradict the peophets base or not .

you allways say " the prophet has said i levae amongest you two things the quraan and the sunnah"
the sunnies have admitted that the saheeh hadeeth is not the one that says Quraan and sunnah but the one that we have in our books which says "quraan and aitra (ahlulbait)" go and investigate this issue pleaze.

who said imam jafar was decendent of abubakr ? he was decendent of the prophet he was the son of albakir who was the son of zainulabedeen who was the son of imam hussain who was the son of imam ali. where is abu bakr in the chain??

i dono if he is decendent of abubakr from the mother but that doesnt mean any thing because abubakr had a very good son Mohamad bin abubakr who stood with imam ali against his sister in the war and stoof against his father and mu3aawya. this doesnt make abubakr a good person. abubakr stole the khilafa and that is evil enough to go to hel for sure.

you allways say islam silam but when we ask you what si islam you have to have answers for us. if you want us to folow your type of islam with no reason we cant. islam is rational and logical. islam doesnt chape god. islam doesnt say "aisha god be pleased with her and ali god be pleased with him when they were enemies and fought wars" . islam and logic says one of them was evil because in your saheeh book bukharie the prophet says " sweraring at the muslim is fosooq and fighting him is kufr" so one of them was kafir

also the prophet says " there was no two conflicting claims except if at least one of them in misguidance.

this is our logical version of islam says we should never fight the leader of out time even if he is evil because that will be interfering with god's will (teh destiny). that is crazy jahl
Aootho billah min shari nafsy wa min shar alshaitan alrajeem

1.sallam brother Ali
the thoughts that you have are very way of islam my brother,are really saying that Allah has left the "inflamable imamms" as a guidence do you understand what you are saying because if you are then you have not accepted the Holy Quran dear brother Ali if you have these thoughts repent to ALLAH,were he said in the holy Quran i have left you this Quran as a guidence and that is more than enough.
I Belive that the shia people now a days and only now are so away from islam that the Prophet(pbuh) and the holy quran isnt enough so they have created (Bida)the so called 12 immams sinless may Allah forgive us were did the prophet speak of such things?
the Shia have gone astray very bad did prohpet never spoke bad of any of his companions and did know if some was was good or bad.
2.were do my family and your family legitimize Mutha(contemparary marriage)that is the most discusting thing in Shia how can they belive its Halal,sunni's have the same thing but call Adultary.
why has the athzan change(bida)
the prohpets(pbuh) had 2 sons that passed away may ALLAH BE PLEASED WITH THEM why dodnt we have 10days morning for them or in the hadith the prophet(pbuh)only morned for 3DAYS for his own children???
were did the great Imam Ali ever say he is sinless NEVER DID HE OR HIS KIDS H AND H.
shia are very greedy that they neen more than the roosul as guidence.
The shia hadith are renowed for their Fabricated Ahadith as you know.Abubakr is spoken about in the Holy Quran as a companion of the prophet and shia deny that he was a good person how blind can these shia people be.
the reason iam saying shia you have classified yourself as a shia "SO CALLED FOLLOWER OF ALI".
I wish yous did follow ahulbayt correctly.
Your educated scholars dont speak ill about the great companions of the PROPHET(pBUH) so why do these uneducated shia's do???
why out of 100 percent muslims are 15 percent shia ONLY???
from what your telling my brother in islam,you have gone greatly astray.
you say ALLAH is always leaving a guidence for us,may ALLAH forgive us for out greddyness.
1.the HOLY QURAN IS NOT ENOUGH FOR SHIA
2.THE PROPHET IS NOT ENOUGH FOR SHIA.
3.MUTHA IS HALLAL (YA LATIF GUIDE THESE PEOPLE)
4.THE CALL TO PRAY HAS CHANGE OR (UPGRADED) BIDAH
5.SPEAK ILL OF THE PROPHETS COMAPNION WHEN HE DID NOT.
6.DENY ALLAH PROPHETS BY NEEDING ANOTHER GUIDENCE AFTER THE LAST GREATEST,PURE,POUIS,SINLESS,GUIDED,HUMMBALE THE LAST MESSENGER THAT WILL EVER RECIVE ANY SORT OF REVALATION OR GUDENCE MOHAMMAD PEACE BLESSING UPON HIM.
7.WHY IS ABUBAKR.UMAR AND OTHMAN BUIRED NEXT TO THE PROPHET AND ALI IS NOT.
ANSWER IS IN THE HADITH BUKARI,QADSI AND OTHER AUTHENTIC HADITH THAT IMAM ALI TELLS HIS COMPANION WHEN I DIE TIE MY BODY TO a donkey and hit the donky very hard so no one shall worship my grave,imam Ali knew dumb people would do this,like the sect that said Ali was god,so he burnt them alive.
my dear brother in islam,Mohammad (pbuh) is the last guided one spritually or physically do not thinks other wise.
if the prophet never spoke of some ill we should not dare.becasue we will be accountable on why did we speak ill,in the Holy Quran it states woe to them who backbites and slandeers people,and shias are doing extactly this correct me if i wrong.
I have been in great debate for many years with my family,it only goes in circules.
Follow the QURAN AND THE PROPHETS WAY HIS SUNNAH and no one else and surly you will be from the people of paradise.
One thing that iam that iam angry with you is about that you keep calling your selves shia why its not from islam and never was all the school of thoughts called them selves muslim.
Abubakr is from the samefamily blood line from jaffari sadiq may bestow his mercy upon them.
The True is here when we ask are you are muslim we yes,but when we are asked in the greave are we belivers we shall say INSHALLA.
Dont get caught up in this political game and chinese wispers study the prophets mentioned in the Quran and Allahs laws and wisdom.
We have many greater men than Abu Bakr and immam Ali,the Holy prophets sinless and the best of examples spoken of directly in the Holy Quran and even surat named after them,so why do need any other men than these prophets.
Dont have hate for someone that the prophet did not have hate for someone.
we have enough guidence to recieve the mercy of ALLAH.
short story that my one of my relatives told me when they went to Iran.
This 25 year old man did mutha with a female,every went as planned did what they did and went their own ways.
that 25 year old man became a scholar 23 years later.
he ingages him self with a young female half his age,the contract was done did what they did 2 or 3 times and went their own ways.
after a short time the female finds out that the man(islamic scholar)is her father,the father and the female do DNA testing and comes back positive.
The scholar breaks down to tears went in depression,left his classes and studies for many years.He made a speach for the first time,he quoted" what happend to me I thank ALLAH the most merciful,my students and muslim brothers and sisters take this as a mercy from ALLAH he has used me a lesson,do commit that same grave sin i have committed May ALLAH bestow his mercy on me and my daughter.I thought i was doing the correct thing and iam a scholar but i was decived by my desires may ALLAH HAVE MERCY UPON ME INSHALLAH.
BROTHER ALI does that sound like ISLAM OR EVEN SHIA

LETS BE FROM THE PEOPLE OF PARADISE
FOLLOW THE QURAN AND THE PROPHETS WAYS(SUNNAH)
dont get caught up in the political mess
sallam wa alakum

AMERISLAM
sydney/australia

PEACE

sallam ALI
I REFER TO WHAT YOU QUOTED

"the rulership of earth to devine people is a base in the shia belief because we bel;ieve god is fair and he has the ultimate gudgment so he will never leave the earth for a period of time without appointing infailible ruler who communicates gods instructions to the humans perfectly."

Iwould like to raise a few points brother.

Are you saying that the Quran and ahadith of both the sunnah and shia, are insufficent enough to rule and regulate the muslim nations and thus Allah needs to give further regulations to Ahulbayt.

Do you know that even orthodox christians are wise enough to know that god does not need to inspire people nowadays because it will limit gods plan.

If it is of your belief that Allah would never leave earth for a period of time without appointing an infailible ruler who communicates gods instructions to the humans perfectly, then answer this question for me brother,

why didnt Allah guide ahulbayt as to what they should do when Abu bakr supposedly stole the caliph from Iman Ali (r.a). This is because all wahy stoped with the prophet Muhammad.

Also, are you aware that through your claim you make no difference between prophet Muhammad saas and ahulbayt. ie Muhammad was infallible, you say ahlulbayt are infallible. Muhammad was divenly inspired, you say ahlulbayt are inspired. why dont you just call them prophets, i mean they portray all the characteristics of not any prophet but prophet Muhammad.

Finally, do you disregard the importance of the conpliation of the Holy Quran, and all the people who helped produce the Mushaf you read today. Ok, so find out under whos rulership it was put togerther and whether it involved Ahulbayt.

your brother in islam trying to give you the right guidene

AmerIslam

peace

Salaam alaikum
I start by Mr. amars second message.
Yes the hadeeth and quraan are not enough because they get their authenticity from the base of Islam called “prophet hood”. The reason why hadeeth and quraan are authentic is infallibility of the prophets or the messengers who communicate them to us otherwise its doubtful.
If the prophet was not infallible we wouldn’t trust what he says. All this assumes that we are leaving in the prophet’s time and obtaining the hadeeths from his mouth directly. But the truth is it has been through a chain of narrations in which lying has become almost definite in each single hadeeth. This is why we have many contradictory hadeeths even within one sect.

Many hadeeths are contradictory. Every one claims the prophet did different things. This is where the role of the imams comes in they represent the sunnah and way of life of the prophet and they get their authenticity from the prophet himself when he appointed them.
So the hadeeth and the quraan (which is narrated to us by hadeeth any way) are not enough therefore god has the infailible khaliefs to confirm what’s right from what’s wrong because god has the ultimate hujja (judgment) on the people.

The prophet has said “whoever dies without knowing the imam of his age has died the death of jahyliah" so you better start searching for your imam Mr.

ahlulbait were guided when abubakr stole the khilafa but they were powerless as the majority of the people were evil and supported abubakr and his gang.
This supports the verse in the quraan that says “when the prophet dies then will you all turn on your backs"
God chose the ahulubait just like he chose the prophets for the humanity but the humans always rejected and killed the prophets and followed the evils and the pharaohs so god gives the leadership to evil people to punish this kind of people. is that clear enough?

ahlulbait are like prophets and have the same characteristics but we don’t like to compare them to each other or with other prophets because that is rude and none of our business. We just say they are all good and divinely guided without differentiating between them just like god says in the quraan “we don’t differentiate between them"

Also Allah says in the quraaan very clearly that imam ali is the same as the prophet when he uses the word " (ourselves) in the verse of mubahala [al imraan] "
So imam ali is the self of the prophet and the self of the prophet is the same as the prophet.

The mushaf had attempted tahreef by these people that you love so much. alot of quraan versions were burnt in othmans time . This is a clear sign of tahreef. bany omayah defiantly participated in attempts to change gods words regardless of whether or not they succeeded because that is evident by their influence on the sunnaah.

The story of the man who slept with his daughter without knowing is irrelevant to mutaa because he could have married his own daughter a permanent marriage without knowing that she is his daughter and the same thing would have applied. There are many possibilities

He could have had “mysyaar marriage” with her like many sonnies do. It’s the same as temporary marriage but in the mysyaar case the man marries the girl with the intention of divorce and he might stay with her few days and divorce her. She also has to give up her right of feeding and shelter and inheritance based on the contract and that is exactly like temporary marriage rules. Except that in the temporary marriage she doesn’t have to give away her rights and have secrecy and there is no divorce involved. This mysyaaar marriage is very common in many Gulf States and moved to Egypt and Jordan too and legalized by the sunnie scholars.

If temporary marriage is so bad then the companions of the prophet that you worship are the most disgusting humans on earth and also the prophet because they did it and accepted it and so did abubakr but omar made it haraam by his own admission.

Later on the sunnies tried to change the history and claim that the prophet made it haram. They had many attempts that failed.
One of them they claimed that another verse gave naskh to the verse that allowed the mutaa but that claim is false because both versus that they claimed changed the rules actually came down before the mutaa verse. Both of them were makki versus in sourat almumenoon and the mutaa verse is madani in sourat alnisaa
They claimed ibn abbas narrated them; he must have been very dumb to do some thing like that.

The second attempt was to say the prophet later changed the rule. But when you read the hadeeth that claims this u find that its crazy.
The prophet made muta halaal then haraam then halaal then haraam 8 times in a period of only few months.

Some reasonable sunnies admitted that omar was the one who changed it as narrated from him when he said “two mutaas were hallal in the prophets time and i make them haraam and punish on them" sunnie history books

omar himself was more reasonable than you people today he honnestly said " i am the one who made it haraam " he never said the prophet made it haraam or god made it haraam.

Another possibility for that so called scholar of yours who slept with his doughter was to have mulk alyameen.
mulk alyameen means you can have sexual relationship with any woman if she becomes your raqeeq based on contract and it doesn’t even need marriage. This exists in both sunnine and shia schools, try to study your own religion before accusing the others. Ask your scholars about mulk alyameen. If mutaa is so bad then mulk alyameen is worse based on your wrong logic and therefore your religion is the one that should be condemned rather than shia.

Check your books you will find the prophet have said many times that after him there will be 12 caliphs. All the historians claimed they didn’t understand the meaning of this hadeeth that’s why they put it in the section of the hadeeth that they didn’t understand the meaning of. They admitted that the prophet said it because the prophet repeated it many times. “after me there will be 12 caliphs the same as the number of asbaat of bani israel all from the sons of Fatima and the last of them will appear at the end of times and fill the earth with justice like it was filled with corruption"

It’s your part to do your homework and read these hadeeths

Try to study more before accusing it’s not fair to accuse another religion of some thing that exists in your own religion. And give us evidence that imam jafar alsadiq is from the decedents of abubakr because I am not sure about this information. Imam sadiq is the son of imam bakir who is the son of imam zainulabedeen who is the son of imam hussain the martyr who is the son of ali bin aby talib ameer almumeneen alfarooq alseddeeq so where is abubakr in this chain???

The verse that talks about abubakr in the quraan proves that abubakr was not moomin.
Read the verse carefully god says "we sent down the tranquility on the prophet only" before this god said “there is two of them in the cave" referring to abubakr and the prophet.

Check all of the quraan wherever you find the word tranquility (sakeenah ) u will find that god says : we send down the sakeenah on the faithful and on the prophet, so the big question is why does god exclude abubakr from the sakeenah if abubakr was a faithful person at that time of the incident???
Companion doesn’t mean friend, companion simply means to accompany some one. Alot of the prophets companions were bad people. Read verse 59 sourah yousuf you will understand that companionship can be between good people like prophet joseph and evil people like his prison companions. God still referred to them as companions because they were together for a period of time. It doesn’t give them any credit. For example pharaoh was companions of prophet musa for a long time does that give him any credit???????

Plus all the hypocrites were companions of the prophet the point I am getting to is that companion doesn’t mean friend and doesn’t mean share the same idea or the same religion it just means they accompany each other as in socialize or see or talk to each other.
Read versus
sorah 31 verse 15
sorah 4 verse 36
sorah 9 verse 40
sorah 18 verse 34 and 37
sorah 54 verse 29
sorah 53 verse 2
sorah 12 verse 39(as i mentioned before)
sorah 51 vrse 59

After reading these versus inshallah you will understand the meaning of companionship and the fact that it doesn’t mean any thing for you to be my companion because many prophets had evil companions at many times.

Why is the shia 15 % of the muslims??
The answer is we wish that the true shia were 15 % of the muslims they are far less as god has said in the quraan
“A small portion from the first ones and a little from the last ones”
The people of the heaven or the shia are very very very little as god has said in the quraan.
U can say the jafaries or the followers of the school of ahlulbait are 15 or 20 or whatever percent of muslims but that doesn’t mean they are true shia. Shias are the people of heaven as the prophet said. If there are 314 true shia activists or leaders on earth the imam mahdi will appear immediately.

salaam
inshallah you take this message as a friendly conversation in an effort to seek teh trruth rather than an attack and chalenge thing. and forgive the wrong i say and try to fix it and i do vice versa and pray for us to all be guided to what allah wants.
wa alsalam alaikum

Salaam un alykum Ali Mirza

Thankyou for putting so much time and effort in such a polite way to answer the criticisms against the Shia Madhhab.

I have a question.

Are there evidences to suggest from the authentic Sunni sources that Muawiah was infact an illegitimate son of Hinda, as she was one of the idol worshippers in the days of Jahilliyyah?

She was Yazid's Grandmother. This is enough.

salaam.

Dear Mr Ammar. Can you explain the upgraded version of the morning Azaan? I am confused. Why is it different from the rest of them? PRAYER IS BETTER THAN SLEEP.

Is it a permanent upgrade or is it optional?

From what I am personally aware of the Shia's recitation of Aliyyun Valliyullah is not allowed to be considered as a part of the Azaan but is seen as RECOMMENDED to recite after having extolled Mohammad ur Rasoolullah.

Abu Bakr's son was adopted by Imam Ali [ by the way} and he waged war against his own sister Aisha in the battle of the Camel under the leadership of Ali. He was also known to have rejected his own fathers caliphate whilst being under the influence of the holy Imam. Needless to say he would have felt that his own father and sisters were transgressors. Muawiah, Abu Sufyaan's corrupt son finally managed to have him murdered as he also had waged war on Imam Ali's side in the battle of Siffeen. Infact it is clear within The Shia history books that the son of Abu Bakr used to curse his own father and was one of the staunchest of Shias.

You were saying something about Imam Sadiq being descended from Abu Bakr.

What do you think in relation to the info I've given you on Abu Bakr's son?

A rocket needs to be put into the arse of Yazid. Unfortunately, his body is already burned.

asallam walakum
dear brothers and sisters on this site

this will be my last oponion on this website.
a couple of days ago i nearly died,allhumdolilah i survived.
i relized that all we have spoked about on this subject has no benifet to me or us in the hearafter.
I truely dont care who was meant to be first or second khalifha.
I have the Holy Quran and The Holy Prohphets and thats enough for me ALLHAMDOLLILA.
as for Mukhtar what benifet or reward do you get if yazid was a belivier or a kaffir,YOU GET NOTHING.......
ISLAM IS THE TRUE RELIGON
ISLAM IS THE TRUE WAY
ISLAM IS THE TRUE NAME
ISLAM IS ONLY ONE THAT WILL ENTER PARADISE
learn what the prophets that are menitoned in the holy Quran speaks of and not the rubbish and political crap after the beatiful prophet mohammad (pbuh)
sallam to all muslims inshallah allah guides us like the ones he has guided before us
MAY ALLAH BESTOW HIS BLESSING AND MERCY UPON US MUSLIMS INSHALLAH
DONT BE LIKE THE NAZI,HATING YOUR HOLE LIFE

SALLAM

AmerIslam
sydney australia
Lets Unite under one Umberlla
ISLAM........

Let's unite under one banner Islam?

It's so easy to say it isn't it. If only the muslims had thought about that idea when Imam Hussein was facing Yazid's army at the battle of Karbala.

The whole Muslim world knows, Sunni and Shia, that Imam Husseins army consisted of less than a hundred soldiers whilst Yazid's consisted of tens of thousands.

And you talk about percentages between Sunni and Shia?

The truthful and righteous have always been in the minority and it was the minority Shia that had backed Imam Hussein on this occasion.

Yes. A large majority out of that minority had backed out of the battle through the terror tactics of Yazid, through fear and repression weeks before the fatal day of Ashura.

Some say it was THOSE Shias therefore who betrayed Imam Hussein.

Well if that IS the case then it was the SUNNIS who killed him.

Where were YOU at the battle of Karbala? What was YOUR excuse for not fighting on Imam Husseins side? Who was YOUR Caliph at that time?

Or did it really all end at the count of only four of them?

No. Your scholars have contrived amongst themselves that their number stops at 4, because they wish to shut the door on the truth:

the truth that the third caliph Uthman Made Muawia, Yazids dad, the governer of Syria in his own lifetime:

the truth that Muawiah in turn handed over the Caliphate to his corrupt son Yazid prior to his own miserable death.

And all those Sunnis who were loyal to Uthman, were in turn loyal to Muawiah and finally, in turn loyal to Yazid.

And YOU say Ammer that you wish to forget politics.

Then good.

If you love the Prophet so much,

FORGET the elections at The Saqifa immediately after Mohammad's demise where Abu Bakr was voted in,

and come to the Prophet Mohammads funeral instead.

You will find there the true Caliph of the muslim Ummah, Imam Ali, tending to the funeral rights;

you will find his successor sons, Imam Hassan and the Valiant Imam Hussein;

you will find their mother Fatemah tu Zahra,

you will find her daughter, Zainab, who would later be dragged in chains by Yazids men from the battle of Karbala, to Kufa and Damascus.

You will find the heroes of that epic battle and you just might ask yourself:

Where is Abu Bakr, where is Umar and where is Uthman?

IF from that point onwards you decide to stay with this holy family, you will eventually find yourself at the battle of Karbala WITH Imam Hussein, not against him.

Now I ask you in sincerity Ammer and in love.

Pay your allegiance to Imam Ali and his family, so on the day of judgement you might be within their company, in heavens domain.

Wassalaam.

Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi

To Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi

as i can see your religon is still based on men,not any of the 25 holy prophets that are mentioned in the Holy Quran.
You can die as a follow of ahalbayt but id rather die as a follow of the prophet mohammad(pbuh) which Allah has spoken of greatly.
But i see why muslims question shia these days.
i dont blame them,you have based your so called "islam religon" on men after the seal of the prophets mohammad(pbuh)???
Why is it when 100perent people revert to islam follow the "sunnah"which means the prophets legal ways,but i spose the prophet (pbuh)is not enough for you greedy muslims.
As you know Shia started after the prophet(pbuh) doesnt that tell you something brother.
My point i follow and love and respect and would die for any of the great Immam Ali and his family and his companions or any of the prophets(pbuh) family or his COPMANIONS and i love them more than you.
WHY.
IMMAM ALI would be questioned on the day of judement,why do these people say that you a sinless,or divinely guided,or perfect.
Allah would as Ali did you say this!
Ali would reply NO never did say such words.
he will be questioned again, they compare you and your family to the prophets which i have directly choosen and GUIDED directly DID YOU SAY YOU ARE IN THE SAME GATERGOURY OR EVEN CLOSE
The great Ali would say Never did i copmare my self or my family to any of the prophets.
Allah asawajul would say why do they apoint to you to have the same charataritics
The great immam Ali would say surely they have gone astray just like what the did the prophet Issa(pbuh)
Then ALLAH would ask Immam Ali are you are muslim or a SHIA he say Iam only a muslim and a follow of the prophet mohammad(pbuh) and his Sunnah.......
So brother you can be a SHIA but surely you will be disapointed when you are in the grave.
Allah does not speach of any other man to follow other than the prophet(pbuh) and the prophets say the same thing(pbuh)
OH why is abubakr,umar,uthman buried next to the prophet(pbuh)were all the people of the time dumb,blind,foolish or your sayING NON BELIVERS AND CORRUPT.
THE true shia school of thought is correct but they way blind belivers follow it nowadays is way of just like the ALLAWIYA...YALATIF
FOLLOW THE QURAN AND THE PROPHET THAT ALL YOU HAVE BEEN COMMANDED TO DO MUSLIM OR SORRY SHIA.

SALLAM TO BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT FOLLOW THE TRUE RELIGON THE QURAN AND SUNNAH....

So, it is just the Quran, the Prophet and the Sunnah then is it?

What happenned to your precious Caliphs?

The truth of the matter is, you Sunnis have raised the standard of those caliphs to the status of prophets yourselves.

Because the prophets only ever succeeded one another.

The difference is that although Ali and the other Imams were not Prophets they were Khalifatullah, in the SAME way that the prophet Adam has been mentioned in the Quran as Khalifatullah.

This is Allah's decision. Not an elected man made decision.

Also, the Quran testifies to the fact that the Prophet Ibrahim had been made an IMAM of men, and indicates that his future family would also be Imams.

So, in the same way that ALLAH decided for the MAJOR prophets to be IMAM and KHALIFATULLAH, He decided also for the family of Muhammad to be the same.

This should not be a shocking statement for you or anyone, should we say that the status of prophet Mohammeds family is at least EQUAL to that of the other Prophets such as Ibrahim.

Furthermore, is it not the case that in the salaat of the Sunnis they do say ALLAH BLESS MOHAMMAD AND HIS FAMILY IN THE SAME WAY YOU HAVE BLESSED IBRAHIM AND HIS FAMILY?

Then it is the Sunnis, not the Shia who are bringing the level of the Imams up to the level of the prophets in their own prayer.

And you say there is no need for them? That the Prophet, Quran and SUNNAH is enough?

There IS no mention of the Sunnah in your daily prayers, instead, immediately after the mention of Muhammads name the emphasis is on his family.

What IS IT that you have against the notion of infallibillity, when the Quran is testifying to the fact that not only is Mohammed PURE and SINLESS but his FAMILY is as well?

Study the verse of purity please chapter 33 vs 33 of the holy Quran.

It was indeed Shaitan who was unwilling to submit to the fact that Adams status was ABOVE that of all Gods creation including the INFALLIBLE Angels.

So why should we not believe that the status of Imam Hussein for example is greater than that of the angels also, as his sacrifice was a divinely inspired act.

The Quran foretells of this Great sacrifice by once again equating it with the the Prophet Ibrahim, and the attempted sacrifice of his son Ismaeel, saying: WA FA DAYNA HO BE ZIBHIN EZEEM, 'And we have ransomed this for a greater sacrifice'.

ALL the Sunni scholars are in agreement that this GREATER sacrice alludes directly to the battle of Karbala and Imam Hussein.

So we can say at the very least that Imam Husseins SACRIFICE was greater than that of Ibraheems. We can say at the very least he is on a level parr with THE PROPHETS in the amount of blessings that Allah sends upon him. Infact the whole muslim world is asking Allah to bless Mohammed and his family in their prayers,MORE than five times a day. That amounts to millions upon millions of blessings and ALL the angels are asking Allah to do the same.

Unfortunately for you, the man made Caliphs of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaat do not come into the same equation.

The existence of the SHIA did not merely come about after the Prophet Mohammad's demise, but The Quran itself refers to The Prophet Ibraheem as being a SHIA of the Prophet Noah. 'AND MOST SURELY IBRAHEEM WAS A SHIA OF HIM'.(Quran 37:83)

Also it is said about The Prophet Musa in the Quran 28:15 'And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his SHIA and the other being of his enemy, and the one who was of his SHIA cried out to him for help against the one who was his enemy.

Also the famous Sunni Historian Jalal ud Din Suyuti in his book Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, narrates that when the following verse of the Quran was revealed:

'(as for) those who believed and do good, surely they are the best of creatures' (Quran 98:7) The Prophet said to Ali: 'It is for you and your SHIA.'

He further said; 'I swear by the one who controls my life that this man (Ali) and his SHIA shall secure deliverance on the day of Resurrection.'

Ibn Jarir al-Tabari and other leading Sunni Historians have also quoted these events.

So, not only were The Prophets, according to Quranic evidence, but their followers also, were referred to as SHIA throughout historical times. Furthermore this term has been extended, according to authentic Sunni referrences toward loyalty to The Prophet Mohammed through Ali ibne Abu Talib.

Get over it my MUSLIM brother.

Understand that the Prophet meant to leave behind two things: The QURAN and HIS FAMILY, not merely the SUNNAH as you so vaguely suggest.

I had explained to you previously, the dire consequences that lead to the tragedy of Karbala, from the time of The Prophet Mohammed's demise to the time of Imam Husseins Shahadat.How was it that the adopted system of Caliphate failed to protect the interests of the Prophet Mohammed's family? In contrast it succeeded in making them enemies of the state.

Imam Hussein had BOUGHT the very land of Karbala because he knew he was going to be buried there.

In the same way the Land that Mohammed was to be buried in was OWNED by him.

It is hardly surprising that if the so called Sahabah of the Ahle Sunnah were prepared to conspire to take the Caliphate from the hands of Mohammeds successor Ali, they could quite easily under their own administration take his land as well.

What right did they infact have to be buried inside the prophets house, next to him , when in their own lifetime they were not allowed to enter without his permission?

This is surely an open injustice when the muslims of the world are able to purchase plots of land to have their own family graveyards the Prophet Mohammeds Family are denied their God given right to be buried next to him.

History states how Ayesha ordered arrows to be targeted into tho dead body of Imam Hassan, as it was carried toward the Masjid e Nabavi-such was her determination that the son of Ali, her arch enemy should not be buried next to his own granfather Rasoolullah.

If you know anything about The Battle of Siffeen you will understand the politics behind this.

Government, Politics, Tribal loyalties, Allegiences, Old Arab grudges from the days of Jahilliyyah - the hidden vengeances in the heart of Abu Sufyaan and Hinda against Mohammed, for the killing of their family and folk prior to their conspicuous conversions.

The mind boggles.

I am sorry that you had a near death accident Ammar. I hope that you find peace in your life and I know that is what most people want out of Islam at the end of the day. I know that you are not saying that because I am Shia it means I am not Muslim. And I am not saying that because you are Sunni it means you are not Muslim.

Yes. We must unite under one umbrella but we cannot unite under the umbrella of Ayesha when she is fighting against Imam Ali. We cannot unite under the umbrella of Uthman when he is deciding to give Yazids father the governership. We cannot unite with Muawiah, the great Sahabi, when he is waging war against the Great Imam Ali.

And finally, how can we unite with the Majority Muslim Ummah, at the Battle of Karbala, when the minority is with our Holy Leader Imam Hussein.

Once again I ask you to take your mind back to the Prophet's Funeral. Imagine you are looking at the faces of The Imam Ali, The Imam Hassan and The Imam Hussein.

Know that they understand through Mohammeds Prophecies what their fate, fortune and challenges are.

Pay your allegience now before it is too late.

This pretty picture of Islam that you paint, is in truth the red blood of Imam Hussein on the battle field of Karbala.

Wassalaam.

PS. It is through the blessing of Imam Hussein's Sacrifice that Islam exists, as a whole.

When people convert to Islam, they they convert usually into the sect that is known as ISLAM.It is only later on that they discover IF they are well informed enough as to what SECT they ended up converting into. Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki, Shaafi or Ja'afari.

The fact that any of these schools exist at all is a blessing from the sixth Shi'a Imam Ja'afer al Sadiq who was Tutor to at least two of them, who in turn tutored the other two.

Regardless. Even the converts end up having to send blessings, amongst the BILLIONS of blessings that have already been sent, to the Prophet Mohammeds family in their daily prayers.

The 12 Imams, if you care to read about their lives were the true interpreters of not only the Holy Quran, but of the Injeel, The Torah and The Zaboor; knowing the original text as Allah had sent it; the knowledge of it having been passed down from the Prophet Mohammed.

The Top Christian Priests were Gobsmacked in the debates that were presented to them by the eighth Imam Ali Reza, confessing that he knew there books better than they did, in KNOWING which parts were authentic and which parts were polluted, in explaining the CORRECT interpretation of the verses. If you would but care to find out about his life.

May Allah give spiritual guidance to all Muslims so that they continue to move further away from the oppressive cultural influences of Muawiah and Yazid, so that they continue toward a deeper understanding of love toward The Holy Imams.

Ameen.

sallam seyyed Ali
My name is AmerIslam
you say i am a sunni,No Iam muslim allhamdolilah.
you say that i have not got alligance with the great Imam Ali and his family,I do more than any one on this website,because i do not make claims that they didnt.
1.Ali never said he was sinless
2.nor did any of his family
3."So we can say at the very least that Imam Husseins SACRIFICE was greater than that of Ibraheems."
Ibrahim(pbuh) so was his kids and his sacrafice was much greater than hussein,why because Ibrahim(pbuh) is mentioned in the Holy Quran.
4.Ali and the rest of his family never said they was divinely guided.
5.why make claims which they never did????
6.muslim means sacrafice and surrender to ALLAH and the prophet(pbuh)
7.in surat baqara you mentioned before it Ibrahim(pbuh)do not die unless your in the state of islam
8.if these Great men were so important in islam why arent they mentioned in The Holy Quran
9.This political mess has made you know more about these useless no need no rewards information after the demise of the Holy Prophet(pbuh).
10.why do think that ALLAH mentions 25 Holy prophets were ALLAH has appointed them,these rightly divinely spritually guided sinless prophets.why???answer,so we can use them as examples my dear brother in islam,and them themselves said were are messengers of ALLAH.

11.PLEASE GIVE ME EVIDENCE THAT ALI(r.a) and his family and the 11 immams are divinly guided and are sinless
12.the prophet mohammad(pbuh) his heart was washed with the holy water of zamzam so his heart can be purified from sin,did this happen to any one after the Holy Prophet???
13.it also mentions in the quran that man can purify himself by preforming wuda,reading The Holy Quran,preforming Hajj and so,does that mean we are sinless like the Holy Prophets.

THE PROPHETS(PBUH) QUOTES I have left you 2 things in my right the Holy Quran and in my left my sunnah....
The prophtes(pbuh)sunnah means legal ways which he preformed which practised which was revealed to him and which he was commanded to do by ALLAH,not his ahalalbayt(r.a)
14.why only four people in his ahalabyt,i have reads in a hadith that the Prophet(pbuh)walks in to his wifes house and gives sallams by saying asallam walaykum ya alhalbayt,which shia say she not from the four pouis people.
15.If immam Ali was alive do you think he will accept shia today,by saying sinless pure divinly gudided by ALLAH on so one???

15.last and not least
out of all this share of oponion that we have spoken of,What we Have done for ALLAH and our people dying in Palastine,Iraq,Checehnya,Sudan, on so,lets be like THE Holy Prophets,The Great familys of The Prophets and lets not waste time with something that was not spoken of in the Holy Quran or by the Prophet(pbuh)
read the quran and follow something that is true and perfect as The Holy Quran states"we have sent down the quran for men of understanding"lets be from them men of understanding
ALL THIS POLITICAL TALK WITH NO TRUE EVEDINCE,DOES IT NOT SAY IN THE QURAN BRING FORTH 4 WITNESS,WHAT FOUR DO WE HAVE TODAY OF SO CALLED WHAT HAPPEND AFTER THE PROPHET(pBUH)

Sallam walakum
AmerIslam

Let's not waste time for something that was not spoken of in the Holy Quran?

Are you saying that the prophet Mohammeds Family is NOT talked about in the Holy Quran?

This is a complete Phallacy and I tire at even the thought of having to justify myself on this matter as it is obvious,

especially in relation to events such as The Mubahilah against the Christians, which involved the Panjatan Paak and The event of Ghadir e Khumm where Allah had ordered The Prophet to appoint Imam Ali as his successor.

You also seem to forget VERY easily the ransomed Sacrifice of Ismaeel which alludes DIRECTLY to the Shahadat of Imam Hussein.

Just because Imam Husseins name was not mentioned it does NOT mean that the intended Sacrifice of the Prophet Ismaeel by the Prophet Ibraheem was greater as the Quran ITSELF is testifying to the fact that there WILL be a GREATER Sacrifice.

PROVE TO ME THROUGH VERSES OF THE QURAN THAT INFALLIBILITY OF BEINGS OTHER THAN PROPHETS, AFTER THE PROPHETS IS INCONCEIVABLE.

IF for example Imam ALI didn't say to the masses that I AM SINLESS AND A SHIA, it doesn't prove that he was not either of those things.

Neither did Imam Hussein say that him and his Family would be the ransomed Sacrifice of Ismaeel to the masses even though the Quran testified to it.

Perhaps I am guilty of the same crime but the Hadiths that you are quoting have no refferences; so I in turn feel unobliged to follow quotes up with mine.

If you however you are quoting from The Sahih Al Bukhari or any of the other Sihah al Sittah I would ask how you have managed to avoid others believing in the supposition that you are not a Sunni.

For the questions that you ask there are direct refferences from the Shia sources should I decide to quote them to you.

But then you might say to me that we should be quoting from the MUSLIM sources.

Which ones brother, the Shia or the Sunni.

I hope you see my point.

According to what I have read from the authenticated Hadiths of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jama'ah it is confirmed that the verse of PURITY in chapter 33 vs 33 in the Holy Quran, The Ahlul Bayt refferred to is none other than Mohammed, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussein and this EXCLUDES the wives of the prophet for they are not of his blood.This excludes them in relation to this verse SPECIFICALLY.

Mohammed pbuh in the Shia refferences is not purified through a ridiculous heart operation as you suggest AND neither is he or his family purified in the same way that you and me are when we do our ablutions.

We are talking about complete mental, spiritual and Physical purification.A THOROUGH purification as the holy verse suggests.

So, the Prophet Mohammeds family does not consist of ONLY FOUR but FIVE and this includes Mohammed himself.

Further more Shia refferences state that this verse of Purity in it's greater sense includes the Twelve Imams; so that there are 14 Masoomeen altogether.

ALL of them sinless. All of them infallible.

None of your Caliphs were, aside from Imam Ali.

None of them ever will be.

All of them made mistakes, and some pretty big ones at that.

Not worth following them.

Not worth following you either, or what you say, or what your scholars say , or what your historians say beause they all came AFTER The Prophet Mohammed and therefore bear no significance to the 25 prophets that are mentioned in the Holy Quran.

Please try and put the pieces of the Jigsaw puzzle together, AmerIslam.

Over 1400yrs have passed since since the demise of the Prophet.

1400yrs later YOU talk to me about THE PROPHET IS ENOUGH.

THE PROPHET MUHAMMED LEFT BEHIND TWO THINGS.

THE QURAN AND HIS FAMILY.

THEY ARE THE INTERPRETERS OF THE SUNNAH AND THE QURAN AFTER MUHAMMED.

THE INFALLIBLE JESUS WILL PRAY BEHIND THE MEHDI ACCORDING TO SUNNI SOURCES.

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A SINNER IS ABLE TO LEAD JESUS IN PRAYER?

THE PROPHET MOHAMMED IS THE GREATEST PROPHET THAT EVER EXISTED.

AND HIS FAMILY IS THE GREATEST FAMILY THAT EVER EXISTED ON EARTH.

If you build your Islamic Unity on the foudation blocks that Uthman created with Muawiah then your Islam can never be a perfect Islam.

If you are saying that BOTH ALI AND AISHA are part of the same Ahlul bayt then we have got a very bad example of family unity to follow as a nation of Muslims.

If the Prophet Mohammeds Family is split and are hell bent on killing each other in battles such as that of The Battle of The Camel then we can never hope as a muslim race to achieve a harmonious society.

It is hardly surprising that the Muslim Ummah is in such turmoil and is unable to unite to help each other when the very same history of the same Ummah has it's hands bloodied by the stain of Vicious civil wars that happened so soon after the demise of Mohammed.

Brother you will never truly be a lover of The Imam Ali unless you break off allegience with Ayesha and Muawiah, to realise the PURITY of strength and purpose in the drive of the Ahlulul Bayt to save the dignity and sanctity of the religion of Islam itself.

It is not a no need no reward situation. It is an obligation upon you to seek the truth of past histories, so that we might correct our present.

What WAS the inspiration behind Hezbollah that enabled them to oust the Isrealis from Lebanon, after 20 years occupation?

Did not the history in the Shahadat of Mohammeds Grandson play a major part in their outlook toward Martyrdom?

May Allah give ALL the opressed Muslims of the world the same vigour and valour.

The Issues that I am talking to you about ARE serious.

The evidence IS infront of your eyes.

Who is your leader then, at the Battles of Siffeen and Jamal. Is it Ali?

Wassalaam.

Although their names are not mentioned specifically

sallam walakum
dear brother
1.you still havent answerd my and The Great Immam Ali and his family question.
WHO SAID THEY WERE SINLESS??????????????
2.THE MOSQUE I PRAY IN AND LOVE SO MUCH IS CALLED IMMAM ALI MOSQUE,THE AMIR ALMOMANEEN,GUESS WHAT ITS A SUNNAH MOSQUE.
YOU KEEP SAYING THE PROPHET IS NOT ENOUGH???
WHY IS CALLED THE SEAL OF THE PROPHETS?????

THE HOLY QURAN AND MY SUNNAH

AR-RaheeQ Al-Makhtum (THE SEALED NECTAR)- Memoirs of the Noble Prophet
Author: Saifur Rahman al-Mubarakpuri - Jamia Salafia - India-

This book was chosen number 1 book, about the life of the prophet (pbuh) out of 250 thousands of books all written by scholars.

Makkah looking for children to suckle. Not even a single woman amongst us accepted the Messenger of Allâhoffered to her. As soon as they were told that he was an orphan, they refused him. We had fixed our eyes on the reward that we would get from the child’s father. An orphan! What are his grandfather and mother likely to do? So we spurned him because of that. Every woman who came with me got a suckling and when we were about to depart, I said to my husband: "By Allâh, I do not like to go back along with the other women without any baby. I should go to that orphan and I must take him." He said, "There is no harm in doing so and perhaps Allâh might bless us through him." So I went and took him because there was simply no other alternative left for me but to take him. When I lifted him in my arms and returned to my place I put him on my breast and to my great surprise, I found enough milk in it. He drank to his heart’s content, and so did his foster brother and then both of them went to sleep although my baby had not been able to sleep the previous night. My husband then went to the she-camel to milk it and, to his astonishment, he found plenty of milk in it. He milked it and we drank to our fill, and enjoyed a sound sleep during the night. The next morning, my husband said: "By Allâh Haleemah, you must understand that you have been able to get a blessed child." And I replied: "By the grace of Allâh, I hope so."
The tradition is explicit on the point that Haleemah’s return journey and her subsequent life, as long as the Prophetstayed with her, was encircled with a halo of good fortune. The donkey that she rode when she came to Makkah was lean and almost foundered; it recovered speed much to the amazement of Haleemah’s fellow travellers. By the time they reached the encampments in the country of the clan of Sa‘d, they found the scales of fortune turned in their favour. The barren land sprouted forth luxuriant grass and beasts came back to them satisfied and full of milk. Muhammad stayed with Haleemah for two years until he was weaned as Haleemah said:
We then took him back to his mother requesting her earnestly to have him stay with us and benefit by the good fortune and blessings he had brought us. We persisted in our request which we substantiated by our anxiety over the child catching a certain infection peculiar to Makkah.[] At last, we were granted our wish and the Prophetstayed with us until he was four or five years of age.
When, as related by Anas in Sahih Muslim, Gabriel came down and ripped his chest open and took out the heart. He then extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: "That was the part of Satan in thee." And then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a gold basin. After that the heart was joined together and restored to its place. The boys and playmates came running to his mother, ie. his nurse, and said: "Verily, Muhammad has been murdered." They all rushed towards him and found him all right only his face was white. []

Website:
www.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/ books/the_sealed_nectar/

IF YOU SAY THIS IS NOT TRUE,ALL THE THOUSANDS OF SCHOLARS ARE WRONG
AND IF YOU DONT BELIVE THIS YOU ARE A KAFFIR INSHALLAH YOU WILL ACCEPT THIS DEAR BROTHER.

SALLAM
AmerIslam

my dear brother in islam
i am not a "sunni or a shia"
THIS WHAT SCHOLARS,IF YOU DONT AGREE ALL THESE MUFTIS,SHEICHS,IMMAMS,SCHOLARS,MUSLIMS MUST BE ALL DUMB AND WRONG,SERSIOULY!!!


Answered by Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam, Leicester (UK)

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

According to the classical and the majority of contemporary scholars, there are two types of Shi’as:

a)Those that hold beliefs that constitute disbelief (kufr) such as having the belief that the Qur’an has been altered, Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) is God, the angel Jibril made an error in descending with the revelation on the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) rather than Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him), accusing Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) of committing adultery or denying the Companionship (suhba) of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him).

The great Hanafi jurist, Imam Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“There is no doubt in the disbelief (kufr) of those that falsely accuse Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) of adultery, deny the Companionship of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr ( Allah be pleased with him), believe that sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) was God or that the angel Jibril mistakenly descended with the revelation (wahi) on the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace), etc… which is apparent Kufr and contrary to the teachings of the Qur’an (Radd al-Muhtar, 4/453).

Therefore, shi’as that hold such beliefs are without a doubt out of the fold of Islam.

b)Those who do not hold beliefs that constitute Kufr such as believing that Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) was the rightful first Caliph after the demise of the Messenger of Allah, slander other Companions (sahaba) belief in the twelve Imams, etc…

Such Shi’as can not be termed as out of the fold of Islam, rather they are considered to be severely deviated and transgressors (fisq).

Imam Ibn Abidin states:

“It is difficult to make a general statement and judge all the Shi’as to be non-believers, as the scholars have agreed on the deviation and defection of the deviated sects” (ibid).

It should be remarked here that some members of the Shi’a community display outwardly not to have believes that constitute Kufr, but keep these beliefs in their heart, which they call Taqiyya.

The case with such people is that if they did have such beliefs that constitute Kufr in their heart but outwardly denied them, them even though according to Allah and in hereafter they will be regarded as non-Muslims, but we will judge them according to their outward statements and actions.

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is reported to have said:

“I have been ordered to judge people according to their outward condition”

Keeping the above in mind, it becomes clear that to perform Salat behind Shi’as that are considered to be out of the fold of Islam is out of the question, and if one did pray behind such a person, his Salat will not be valid, thus must be repeated.

If the beliefs of a Shi’a is not to an extent that constitutes Kufr, then it is strongly disliked (makruh tahriman) to perform Salat behind him. Such Shi’as, even though they are not regarded as non-Muslims, are still considered to be deviated and transgressing (fisq), thus one must avoid performing Salat behind them.

Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his Durr al-Mukhtar:

“It is Makruh to pray behind a sinner, blind person or a innovator, meaning the one who holds beliefs that are not known from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace)”.

Imam Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) comments on this by saying:

“The reason for not praying behind a sinner (m. in action or belief) is that he takes matters of religion lightly. Also, in praying behind such people, we are showing them respect, where as it is necessary to not show them respect…..It is reported in Sharh al-Munya that to perform Salat behind such people is Makruh Tahriman. According to Imam Malik and Imam Ahmad (in a narration), Salat behind them is not valid altogether” (Radd al-Muhtar, 1/560).

Therefore, Salat behind a Shi’a should not be performed. If one did so, it must be repeated, as it may not be valid.

And Allah knows best

Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK

A close freind of mine by the name Ali,after the great Ali said to me why dont us muslims meet up have live exchange of opinions
lets have a live debate...
AmerIslam muslim sect V.S "sunni and shia"
Sallams to all muslims

When the Quran and Allah itself has testified that Mohammed's immediate Blood relatives INCLUDING Imam Ali are PURIFIED THOROUGHLY then there is no need for further evidence from the Imams themselves to testify that they are infallible.

Look once again to your daily prayers and ask yourself how many Trillions of times the Muslims of the world have asked Allah to BLESS MOHAMMED'S FAMILY AS HE HAS BLESSED IBRAHEEM AND HIS FAMILY.

Why so many question marks? It's not such a big deal. I mean it doesn't exactly amount to Kuffar.

If the Shias ARE Kaffir on account of the evidences that you AND Mohammed ibn Adam are suggesting then why is it that the greatest anti shia group in existence, the present day Saudi Wahabbi government, allow them to freely perform the Hajj Pilgrimage: especially as they know better than anyone else it it is haram for non muslims to enter into Mecca and Medina?

I have quoted you Quranic evidences in relation to the Prophets and their affiliation to those who are known as SHIA.

Inspite of this you have decided to quote books deemed to be authenticated under your scholastic prefference, books to which the Prophet Mohammed in his own lifetime did not allude to, WHILST you try to underline that aside from The Quran and the Sunnah, The Prophet is ENOUGH. So what then what is the purpose of having to rely on such ludicrous hadiths as the one that you have just quoted me?

Once again you fail to take lessons from history.

Just because thousands of scholars believe that in the physical heart of Rasool e Khuda used to be a part of "SHAITAN(?!)" (ASTAGHFIRULLAH!!! Salman Rushdie would have a field day), it doesn't mean those thousands of scholars are right.

I'll continue with this later.

Wassalaam.

How can you continue to find security in your beliefs, on the mere basis that just because EVERYBODY is following the same thing it MUST be correct, when you know as I have explained to you time and again, that at the battle field of Karbala stood the tens of thousands of soldiers of Yazid, against the mere seventy odd soldiers
of Imam Hussein?

Why should I then follow the Mass of Sunni Ulama who favour the same caliph Uthman who was responsible for putting Muawiah in government; the same Uthman who therefore was responsible for paving the way to Imam Husseins Shahadat?

I am so glad Mohamed ibn Adam, that you have clarified the issue about who and who it is not permissable to pray behind.

When we say infallible we mean someone who has never committed a sin, in thought , deed word, or in any other way.

Therefore Jesus WILL pray behind someone who is sinless and that someone shall be none other than THE IMAM MEHDI, of Mohammeds Family, in accordance to Sunni refferences.

Please check your own books and ask your own scholars about this as it DOES correspond to the important prophecies that have been passed on through Mohammed pbuh.

ALL the Muslims await this future event.

Even the Christians anticipate the coming of Jesus.

The differenc between Mohammed and Jesus is that Mohammed had a family to succeed him, in more ways than one, and Jesus didn't.

The spirit of Mohammeds revolution therefore exists not only in the Battle of Karbala but in the forthcoming appearance of The Imam Al Mehdi.

If you look toward the future my friends, with a knowledge that is grounded in the TRUTH of the past, you will understand that the PUREST sacrifices in the History of Islam have been made, and are to be made by none other than The Prophet Mohammed and his Family.

Finally, the Shia are constantly accused of CRITISING the Sahabah yet I find very little condemnation amongst the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaat for THE KILLING of the same, under the orders of Muawiah and Ayesha.

What BIGGER fitna is there in Islam other than this?

The Factual evidence behind these events are so outstanding that not a single Islamic scholar can deny what happened.

Yet still there is no evidence from you AmerIslam, of even attempting to address the issue to me as I have explained it.

Is there ANY justification for Ayeshas decision to wage CIVIL WAR against YOUR 4th rightly guided Caliph?

And what of Muawiah?

Do you make excuses for him also?

You claim this SHI'ISM was a much LATER developement in the formation of Islamic History serving only the purpose of creating Fitna.

OK then. Let us forget the LATER developements and consider the EARLIER ones.

This Golden Age of Caliphate.

This nation of Sahabis.

What on Gods Earth went wrong?

sallam brother.
please answer my question my dear brother.

many thanks
AmerIslam your brother in Islam

Dear AmerIslam

In relation to your enquiry as pasted below

1.you still havent answerd my and The Great
Immam Ali and his family question.
WHO SAID THEY WERE SINLESS??????????????

the answer is that Allah Subhanah wa ta'alah did,
in chapter 33 vs 33 of the Holy Quran whereby HE says

" OH AHLULBAYT! ALLAH ONLY WISHES TO KEEP AWAY FROM YOU UNCLEANLINESS AND PURIFY YOU A THOROUGH PURIFICATION ".

The THOROUGHLY PURIFIED in this verse consist of none other than Mohammed, Fatema, Hassan and Hussin in accordance with authenticated narrations as per Sunni literature.

We may note that it is Allah who has decided to purify them in this verse and not themselves by and through the act of merely doing Wudhoo.

The fact that this is Allah's wish and desire indeed constitutes itself as a divine act and we may note that it is Allah swt that is making the parrallel here between the status of The Prophet Mohammed and the rest of his family by UNITING them on the levels of sinlessness, which in turn clearly constitute infallibility.

If it is NOT ENOUGH for you that the Quran is providing you with evidence, then I shall reffer you once again to the sunni scholars.

Al-Juwaini al-Shafi'i, in Fara'id al -Simtayn, narrates that the Messenger of Allah informed: " I and Ali and Hassan and Hussein AND NINE of the descendents of Hussein are the PURIFIED ONES and the sinless".

He also narrtes from Abdullah ibn Abbas, from the Prophet who said "I am the chief of Prophets and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be TWELVE, the first of them being Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al-Mahdi".

There are a variety of Hadiths AUTHENTICATED in accordance with the views of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaat that without a doubt reffer to the status of Imam Ali as OBVIOUS successor to The Last Prophet, and, also make clear notes on the notion of TWELVE CALIPHS, and the concept of the Imam Al-Mehdi.

It is therefore I feel that on these viewpoints in particular ALL the Muslims should unite instead of burying the evidences under the carpet.

The EVENTUAL status of the blood that descends from Mohammeds veins SHALL be made apparrent on that epic day when Jesus will pray behind our awaited saviour.

ALL but ALL of the Muslims are aware he will be a Seyyed.

But this is no ordinary Seyyed my friend; this is the TWELFTH of the legitimate successors to Mohammeds Divinely appointed leadership.

Although you do not wish to respond yourself Amer, to MY questions in relation to the early civil wars imposed upon THE AHLUL BAYT, by the likes of Muawiah and Ayesha, I pray that you are clear in your mind as to which parties were infact PURIFIED and SINLESS in their drive toward establishing, a divinely appointed system of Khilaafat.

Wassalaam.

asallam walakum
dear brother in islam
you havent answerd the question,Allah says worship me(asallat)when you a pure,pure your self when you do hajj etc.ALLAH SAYS ahalbayt are from the purifeid ones means,they are true and pious muslims,were does sinless come from,who made this up,even Adam(pbuh)sinned,your prophet and mine.
and with the wife of the prophet,(umalmumanin) the holy prophet,do you think he married someone bad or astray,are you prepared to answer to the prophet(pbuh) with real and true evidence about his wife(R.A)
Also i said i do not care about the political issue after the prophet(pbuh)

many thanks

AmerIslam

The fact that you CARE about Ayesha and her reputation as to whether she was good or bad means at least you care about something.

If you want to believe that Adam and the other Prophet's were sinners then really our conversation ends here.

How you are able to want to defend the reputation of Ayesha against her actions, but not defend The Prophet Adam against his is inconcievable.

The Purity of The Prophets in your own shallow mind amounts merely to the physical, co relating them to the level of normal human beings.

All of this when you KNOW that Allah asked the angels to do sajdah toward Hazrat Adam.

There is a tafsir and an explanation for every part of the Quran. Instead of using the tafsir to protect the honourable status of our prophets the Sunnis have done the opposite

by using verses of the Quran to try and prove that Mohammed was susceptible to black magic and that he was in the habit of turning blind people away.

I mean you actually FALSELY attribute Surah Abasa to him.

It seems clear to me that it was only because some of the so called sahabah were so used to disobeying the prophetic commands, they finally decided to bring him down to their own fallibe level.

To the Sunnis therefore Mohammed was actually a PART TIME PROPHET; sometimes it was ok to listen to him, sometimes not; just as Umar disobeyed Mohammed on his deathbed when pen and paper had been requested-Umar got worried and said that Mohammed was "delirious and out of his senses" - using the excuse "THE QURAN IS ENOUGH FOR US"!

This sounds SMACKINGLY like your constant rhetoric claiming that all you need is the Quran sunnah and prophet - well Umar was clearly not in need of even that.

To have sinned even once means that you are a sinner.

How is it possible that Allah swt would reveal unto a sinner the Quran, the Zaboor or the Injeel?

It is you Sunnis and your INTERPRETATION of the holy Quran, alongside your extremely dodgy hadiths in relation to the Prophet Mohammed that have given Authors like Salman Rushdie fuel for the fire;

or are you not aware that his SATANIC VERSES was based on a Sunni tradition.

I'm done with trying to convince you.

You have intentionally brushed over much of the information that has already been forwarded to you, not just by me but by other well informed brothers also.

The purpose should be for us to unite, under the command of our Prophet pbuh.

But if your own beloved Caliphs are unable to do that then why should I expect the same of you.

Wassalaam

THE GOLDEN AGE

THE GOLDEN AGE OF CALIPHATE
HAS ENDED WITH ALI.
SO TAKE THE GOLDEN CHANCE MY FRIEND
TO ACT ON HIS DECREE.
THIS TIME, IT WILL NOT COME AGAIN
SO TAKE THE GOLDEN CHANCE
TO FIGHT THE ENEMY OF GOD
WITH BATTLE SHIELD AND LANCE.

BUT DO NOT KILL THE MUSLIMS
BECAUSE THIS WILL BE HARAM.
THE HYPOCRITES HAVE COME TO
FIGHT AGAINST THE TRUE ISLAM.
AT THE BATTLE OF JAMAL
IS AISHA IN COMMAND,
TO FIGHT THE FATHER
OF HUSSEIN SHAHEED OF KARBALA.

SO DO NOT KILL THE MUSLIMS
BUT THE HYPOCRITES I PRAY.
YOU'LL UNDERSTAND THAT ALI
IS YOUR CALIPH IN THIS WAY.
ALI IS YOUR CALIPH
AND IF HE TELLS YOU TO FIGHT
IT'S NOT FOR YOU TO THEN DECIDE
WHAT MIGHT BE WRONG OR RIGHT.

AISHA IS CONTENDING
AS THE WIDOW OF A MAN
WHO SAID HIS BROTHER IS ALI.
HOW CAN YOU UNDERSTAND
THE NOTION THAT IT IS HALAL
TO TAKE A MUSLIMS LIFE?
ALI KILLED THE HYPOCRITES
THAT BACKED THE PROPHETS WIFE.

DON'T SHUDDER IN YOUR BOOTS MY
FRIEND I SAY YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE.
SHE TURNED UPON HER HEELS JUST
LIKE THE WIFE OF PROPHET NUH.
'LIKENED' TO THE MOTHER
OF BELIEVERS AS IT WERE.
IT MEANS IT HAS BECOME
HARAM FOR THEM TO MARRY HER.

FOR SHE IS NOT THE MOTHER
OF ALI AND THOSE WHO DIED
IN THE BATTLE THAT SHE LEAD
ON CAMELBACK; DEPRIVED
SHE WAS OF ALL THE KNOWLEDGE
THAT WAS PASSED FROM HER NABI.
SHE BIT THE HAND THAT FED THE
MUSLIM UMMAH. CAN'T YOU SEE

THE DIFFERENCE IN A MUSLIM
AND A HYPOCRITE? OH PLEASE!
THE WOOD IS IN THE FOREST.
YOU CAN'T SEE IT FOR THE TREES.

"ALI IS WITH THE TRUTH
AND THE TRUTH IS WITH ALI"

Hadith,
Mohammed pbuh.

asallam walakum
once again all the so called claims,lies,hatered aganst people.
Quran states wow to them that backbite and slander
true,so wow to you my freind.
With no real evidence
Allah knows best

QURAN AND MOHAMMAD (PBUH)=Islam

if you see the basic truth is histrocal
and truth lies in middle. i do not like sunnis interpation and justification of muwya or shias interpetation aganist umar(ra) .both of them are histrocally wrong. but have nothing to do with beliefs. rather tawheed is the basic important thing.first if any one asks help to any one other than Allah be it ali(ra) or muhmmad(saw) and be it
sunni or shia is a kafir. and about infabulity. even prophet(saw) was not infalable.
so imam infabale is strang.but i suggest concentrate on Allah and forget about leadership.
it will lead you no where. when Allah intends he
will give it to you if he so intends.
faisal

Have you never asked for help from anyone in your life then Mir?

Umar was a leader wasn't he?

You're right. Let's forget him. I'd be more than happy to.

No more leaders. No more Caliphs. No infallible Prophets. No leaders at all.

Just the Quran and Allah.

And you to interpret it.

I think you need some help.

Try asking somebody knowledgeable.

I finally bloody get it. I've been debating with a Wahabbi influenced individual all along. That's why he didn't bracket himself as a Sunni.

I've just been doing some research. The majority of Sunni's actually believe in the concept of Tawassul, that is intercession. Not only do they use The Quran to justify their viewpoint AND they use the same verses that the Shias use but they also back it up heavily with hadiths from Al Bukhari and various other authenticated books.

Furthermore proof is taken from the writings and collection of Hadiths that pertain to the four Madhhabs, that is the Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki and the Shaafi.

It is the so called Wahabbis that have in recent times REJECTED these famed schools of thought to give their own interpretation of the Quran and Islam so as to bypass any possible censure.

By saying you are Kaafir, if you call upon help from anyone other than Allah such as Mohammed or Ali etc The Wahabbis have branded the whole of the muslim race as Unbelievers!

It's really clear now, why they had the courage to smash the shrine of Imam Hassan,Imam Zain ul Aabedeen,Imam Ja'afer us Saadiq AND Seyyedah Fatema tu Zahra.

No one complained about it before but the Wahabbis invented something new and are branding EVERYBODY kaafir.

Take the advice of your Sunni brothers mate. You wanna be careful who you call it to.

If you think the Quran is as clear as it sounds and you are able to figure it out all by yourself then good luck.

sallam brother Ali Ameem
i hope your not labelling me a Wahabbi.
it is True they do out lot of people from our glorious religon,I agree.
I come across it alot were i work,Allamdolilah Allah has given me the guidence and to not judge anyones faith or imman.
Allah Is One
I am a muslim
I follow Islam
My book is the QURAN
MY Prophet is Mohammad (pbuh)
I belive in judemeant day
I belive in the angels.

Sallam brother in Islam
ALLAH KNOWS BEST

Salaam AmerIslam

I know I said I was done speaking with you, but you sounded quite friendly in your last statement so I hope you'll permit me to continue.

If we take the CLEAR meaning from the Quran then we would be able to state that Allah has a physical form as The Quran reffers in metaphore to ' the hand of Allah '.

In the same way a person may say that Adam sinned. But the mistake was not a mistake in the eyes of men - by the standard of ordinary men Adam was still sinless.

In the same way that for us NORMAL human beings there are undesirable acts and prohibited acts, for the prophets there are seperate levels of expectation from Allah.

It was infact an INSTRUCTION of Allah to Adam not to take the fruit from the tree, not a command in the OUTRIGHT sense.

These are the defenses for our Prophets that the Shia scramble to hold on to.

And we are proud of it.

When the Quran is talking about a THOROUGH PURIFICATION (as in vs 33:33) in relation to Mohammed pbuh then it does not exclude the purification from sin.

When WE intend to purify ourselves we do wudhu and attempt to correct our mental state.

When ALLAH intends to purify, and purify his own PROPHET at that, then you can be guaranteed it is purification on a different level.

Even the mountains were unable to recieve the revelation of the Holy Quran, due to fear of crumbling.

If we say that Mohammed was susceptible to sin or mistake or is NOT Allah's most PERFECT creation, then how can we be guaranteed that the Holy Quran is a PERFECT revelation?

Are we then instead meant to be depending upon the so called collectors of the Holy Quran who were supposedly gathering written scraps on parchment, leaves, stones and bones AFTER Mohammed died to culminate in a PERFECT Quran?

Or are we meant to prove the authenticity of the Quraan being Allah's word, by the Quran Hafiz's that memorised the Holy book - and the text was gathered from them?

What? Have you depended upon these people to forward you a PERFECT Quran whilst you believe that the PROPHET it was revealed unto was IMPERFECT, A MISTAKE MAKER and SUSCEPTIBLE TO SIN?

When Allah has attributed PURITY to our prophets you must try to understand the FULL meaning, depth and scope of the statement.

For the sake of the protection of your religion and your dignity as a muslim I ask you to SERIOUSLY reconsider your view on The Prophet Mohammed pbuh.

It will not take anything away from your Deen and it does not mean that you will further be bracketed into any of the other sects.

It is the Christians who have infamously attributed sin to their own prophets - whilst on the extreme hand raising Jesus to the Status of God.

To them if you say Jesus was a Prophet, they will be insulted, because according to their own texts their own Prophets were sinners (Astaghfirullah)!

It is plain to see why this has become the case. The Jews betrayed the Prophet's of Allah, went against their ordinances, conspired against them and even killed them, and, to justifify their actions it was inevitable that they attributed sinfulness and imperfection to them.

(I mean astaghfirullah, according to them Noah was meant to have slept with his own daughters)!

I have even met Catholics who have said and admitted to me, "Yes. Mohammed WAS a Prophet"; it means nothing!

You can see how dangerous it would sound therefore if such people were to gather information that in the heart of Mohammed was a piece of Shaitan and the angel Gabriel had to take it out.

The SPIRIT of Mohammed pbuh was created before time, before even the spirit of Adam was created.
It was at THIS time that Allah INTENDED to PURIFY HIM THOROUGHLY and his will was done.

This is in refference to the beliefs of the Sunni concesus (his creation before Adam)trust me.

I have tried to limit this last message to you on aspects I feel that we should be agreeing on.

If there are instances within Muslim history that denote a disobedience toward our Holy Prophet then we should be careful to note them.

I am pleased that you say you love the Prophet Mohammed pbuh even more than me.

I want you to upgrade your love to Premium rate standard.

Ever heard the phrase ' HE COULD DO NO WRONG '?

Well, that is your Prophet Mohammed my friend. That is your Prophet Mohammed.

AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST.

Wassalaam

Oh Brother, you've just answered it for me! I was scrolling through some of your previous correspondences. This is what I've pasted...

3.The beloved prohpet Mohammed(pbuh) said i left 4.you The holy Quran and my Sunnah and you will never go astray.
ALLAH will question us why did you look at other examples other than Mohammed(pbuh) which I ALLAH had created him perfect????

Posted by: Amer at February 22, 2005 09:43 PM

Finally I know in your heart you will agree with me.

I am an artist Amer. If a picture is PERFECT it has no mistakes.

Why all this endless debate, going round in circles??!!

May the Panjatan Paak intercede for you my friend. May they intercede for you.

Wassalaam!

Your brother in Islam

sallam Ali Ameem

what is Panjatan Paak?????

AmerIslam

Salaam Amer

It is a term derived from the Indo Pak Subcontinent, translating as 'The Purified Five', signifying primarily Muhammed, Fatema, Ali, Hassan and Hussein as indicated in ch33vs33 of the Holy Quran.

Bravo ali ameem. We need more ali ameems in this world to answer questions on islam. This debate is really wonderful. Good Luck....

Shiraz

SALLAM BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN ISLAM
THIS IS NOT A DEBATE.
HOW CAN WE DEBATE ON OUR RELIGON,WHAT WE A SHARING IS NOT RELIGON,JUST HISTORY THAT DOES NOT BENIFET US IN THIS LIFE OR THE HERE AFTER.
LETS PAY OUR DEBIT TO ALLAH.
REMEBER ALLAH IS THE ONE WHO WILL GRANT US PARADISE NOT MAN.
LETS FOLLOW THE PROPHETS FOOTSTEPS(INSHALLAH)

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

AmerIslam

hey salams, well one thing no disrespect and all but i belive that yall shias belive in a thing called muta rite, how is it that a man can go and basically this is wt it is can go and sleep with other woman and it can be called a temorary mariage , thats sort of ridicolous, thats wt we call fornication buddies, adultry, haram , u treat all these imams like da christaina treat the pope, u guys bash the prophets famil mebers, i mean the prohpet himself would not curse out the lady whom everday intentially put out glass and threw garbage on him , and when she had stopped he went to see wt was wrong , why hasnt she been thrwing her trash at me rite soo he cheked up on her and found out that shewas sick , i think u knw the storty, so how come yall keep bashing his family and all while our prophet would pray for the ones who would harm him , he woudl pray to allah to forgive there msitakes, and yet to fools bash and curse his family.

hey salams, well one thing no disrespect and all but i belive that yall shias belive in a thing called muta rite, how is it that a man can go and basically this is wt it is can go and sleep with other woman and it can be called a temorary mariage , thats sort of ridicolous, thats wt we call fornication buddies, adultry, haram , u treat all these imams like da christaina treat the pope, u guys bash the prophets famil mebers, i mean the prohpet himself would not curse out the lady whom everday intentially put out glass and threw garbage on him , and when she had stopped he went to see wt was wrong , why hasnt she been thrwing her trash at me rite soo he cheked up on her and found out that shewas sick , i think u knw the storty, so how come yall keep bashing his family and all while our prophet would pray for the ones who would harm him , he woudl pray to allah to forgive there msitakes, and yet to fools bash and curse his family.

AYO salam my sunni brothers and sisters....haha looking at this i laugh cause you shia fagz get so upset to see that abu, uthman and omar where great men... dont worry my kaffir friends allah hates youz too...hahaha im sure if ali RA was here he would walk outside his tomb and kill you muthafuckers hahahah.... you hate aishaRA the biggest sin considering that she was the prophets best wife..dumbasses notices how you wankers are the minority in islam.....thats because allah has made the truth the majority... OUCH did that hurt biatches.... notice the shahada.... it doesnt say ali wali allah in that does it so say the kalimah again and revert fuckasses... SUNNIS LOVE ALI and if any sunniz dont then u to can get fucked.... oi one thing why wasnt aliRA allowed to lead the prayer why wasnt aliRA asked to personaly to go with the prophetSAW himself on his escape journey... put 1 and 2 together KAFFIRS... you changed the kalimah thats the biggest shirk there is... o yeah its a sunnat to love ALIra so we do fuck asses...you call your scholars RAHIMTULLAH TALA ALAIHI but all they know how to do is read books they cant do miracles like Sheik abdul kadir jelaani Rahimtullah tala alaihi... YA ali wake up and kill the shiaz o lion of god...the first man to accept islam was abu bakrRA without hesitation no1 knew the prophetSAW than him he was his best friend before any1.... aliRA is a man of truth and power and a pure sunni SO YOU FAGZ JOIN THA TRUTH AND LEAVE YOUR SHIRK.... AND WAT THE FUCK MAN i have seen some shia fagz say aliRA was the prophet ASTAGFIRULLAH and i have seen some shia fuckasses say aliRA was ALLAH astagfirullah.... u niggaz are crazy... go kill yourselves.. that way your punishment wont be as worse HAHAH... you shiaz use your everyday knowledge to read the quran us sunniz if we cant interprete it we dont try cause we fear allah swt.... also a famous hadith... prophet muhammedSAS said that- there will be people who read the quran and go even further in there misery... THIS IS CLEARLY SHIATES hahah o man fuckn use up is to easy... wankers aishaRA was the prophets best wife for a reason because she was the most practible that means if your diks are to dumb to translate that,,, that we are most like to get some like that than Fatima.. fatima RA was heavenly.... how many heavenly women do you know... c dicks get your facts sorted and wipe your glasses.. no shia scholar could ever compare to any WALIz we sunnis have for example CHISTI rta SHEIK ABDUL KADIR JELANNI rta TAJ BABA rta...... man you shiaz are fucked thinking that khomeini is a wali haha i know his miracle he cant read hahahahha... oi khomeini if your reading this eat my dick cause ali hassan hussein fatima abbas all of them are on our side so get fuckd OI KHOMEINI GO MUTA WITH YOUR MUTHA... la illaha illal muhammedur rasoul allah

and another thing you say ali wali allah thats kaffir cause ali is higher than a wali cause he is a sahabi and a wali is a title given to pious ones after the death of the prophet so ummmm yeah shiaz get fucked.....and khomeini eat a dick bitch hHAHAHHAH ALLAH HU AKBAR

hey seyyed naqvi and ali ameen... i have never seen such kaffirz in mylife o well let allah deal with youz.... anywayz hahah khomeini is a ugly muthafucker that fucks your ass with ali ameen from behind him.. .... anywayz you dont get that kind shit where im from but i guess im starting it i love giving shias hidings at university it feels so good... you wankers are so weak seriously and hahah i just laugh how youz believe in a 12 infallible haha klaiming there holy men like prophets ...... man wtf you guyz go get fucked.... you see we cant diss ali the way youz diss muawiya cause we love both of them and to get it right ok.... aisha was looking for the killer with muawiya of uthman.... they thought ali was holding the killer but ali was looking for him to but quitely.. they waged a war on the mixed pretences but ali asked muawiya for a fight muawiya then discussed the matter and the matter was resolved and muawiya was a gud and his son YAZID wasnt....... stop dissin muawiya for nutn ahhaha i was looking at this footage from iraq at this lady getting shot on her knee caps by sum sunniz and she was a shia.... anyways she died and then her husband tried to act tuff and tried to stop them and he got shot point blank as soon as i saw this i put my hands up and said ya allah bless the killers of these kaffirs that husband and wife died by a sunnis hand let the sunnis live and kaffirs die....ooooo man he was shot point blank when i saw that i was like YEAH FUCK THE Shias ahahhaha it looks so good wen you shias die i swear i hope u men keep dying long live SUNNIs the real sunnatul rasoullah

every night pray to allah to put you in the same as mu3awia's place on gudgment day

insha allah to be put in muawiyas place such a blessing indeed..i hope you sit with abu jahl in hell

your whole concept of divine appointment is false...shiates is much wrong here the prophet sas may allah send every blessing on him said that he was the last man to be divinely appointed because there shall come non better than him...the closest you can get to being divinely appointed is the prophet sas may allah send him every blessing appointing him... in this case he has HAZRAT IMAM MEHDI... so therefore it falsefies your twelve infallibles...... alhamdolilah shias look at the big picture of things whilst us sunnis ponder in side the square where all the details are given...... summa ammen

Asalamo alaykum.....
!st of all i just want to say to all follwers of ahlul bayt who swear trying to prove their point... did the prophet(pbuh) or imams(as) go about it in such a way,,, NO, then dont.
About successorship, every prophet(as) spoke about a successor(leader) who shall lead the people after him, which was revealed to him by allah-god(swt)because allah(swt) knows best. Even jesus(as) spoke about muhammad(as) as we muslims believe he did which also was revealed to him by allah(swt)... Now, as if the greatest prophet(pbuh) and last 1 was going to leave the world without doing what previous prophets, did.Was he to leave islam in conflict, read about what happened at ghadeer in both sunni and shia hadith and history and people will show you that ali(as) was chosen as leader and even abu bakar and umar turned to ali(as) and said surely your our leader, but went about things differently later through their own will and desire.
About infallability just read verse 33-33 about ahlulbayt and many sunni hadith to prove how the imams never committed sin. Is that harom to believe in not making a mistake will that send me to hell. Thats like saying i cant reach a pure state too,thats telling me i will always make mistakes, but no even me and you out there have a free will and we can reach a sinless level through our freee will.... People alot of common sense gets u answers.

anyway would like to chat to me add me onto msn as m_k_haydar@hotmail or email telling me asalamo alaykum

sallam
surely man is not perfect.
The Quran states it was us that have guided him(Mohammad pbuh)us, means Allah and his angles.
To be Sinless is impossible,The prophet(pbuh)asked for repentence more than 70 times a day.
Allah forgave his sins the past and the recent THE PROPHET AND ONLY THE PROPHET (PBUH)
We man while defantly sin minor or major
as the Quran states Every Human is a sinner.
Evey Human sins thats why we have Judement day.

Naazla what you are doing is against Islam and the prophet(pbuh).Is what he(pbuh)taught us plse increase your knowldge,iman,and character and set examples my brother in Islam,dont let the devil get the better of you.

May ALLAH Guide us and unite us in one Name
Islam Islam Islam

Allah Knows Best

AmerIslam

Saying "astaghfirullah e Rabbi wa atoobo illayh" seventy times a day is AN ACT OF WORSHIP, NOT PROOF FOR THE FACT THAT YOUR GREATEST PROPHET WAS A SINNER.

You are going down a truly dangerous path in attempting to prove your point Amer.

Please reffer to the opinion of your own scholars,instead of trying to piece the jigsaw puzzle up by yourself.

All the Prophets who recieved perfect revelations from Allah were perfect human beings. No, infact they were SUPERHUMAN beings. Otherwise how could Muhammad ur Rusoolullah make a physical night journey to the heavens on the back of Burraaq.

With the raising of his finger the moon was split in half and then rejoined.

Jesus brought the dead back to life.

All of this was possible of course due to the powers of intercession that had been given to them by Allah.

And if these things are possible then their infallibility is a minor miracle in comparison.

It is unfortunate that NAAZLA has been affected by devilish tendencies, as you so rightly pointed out, and his refference to homosexual activity in conjunction with the zikr of Allah is truly one of the most disturbing innovations I have seen as yet.

The graphic and brutal descriptions of torture and violence, explained with such joyous bloodlust by Naazla, bear nothing in comparison to the deaths that occurred in the battles of Siffeen and Jamal against Muawiah and Aisha.

His excuses for both the above mentioned are some of the most feeble, weak and flawed that one is likely to hear; being unable to convince a fly let alone a Kaafir.

It is only a blind man that wantonly thrashes his sword in midair, without any sense for the history of past civil conflicts.

May Allah give us Tawfeeq to understand fully the political histories of our past, so that we are able to comprehend the politics of our Islam in the present, and the future.

Aameen.

sallam brothers in Islam
the Prohpet adam sinned(pbuh) but was given,The Prophet Musa(pbuh)Killed a man,and asked for forgivness and he was forgiven.
Allah forgave the Prophets for the past and the recent sinns if they sinned,but was not perfect because if they were they wont be human,but as the Greatest prophet said(pbuh)"iam a man just like you"

Inshallah Allah forgives us
Allah Knows Best

AmerIslam

The Prophet Mohammed and his family were PURIFIED THOROUGHLY as indicated in ch33vs33 of the Holy Quran. This means that they were purified from sin also.

This would imply that although there may have been doubt, hardship and difficulties for them they had been conditioned to not even THINK anything sinful.

Whilst there are clear instances as Amer has extenuatingly attempted to express, within the SUNNI Madhhab that the Prophet Mohammed was an IMPERFECT, NORMAL human being, who SINNED ( I STILL CANNOT BELIEVE THIS) ! he (Amer) is unaware of the grave he has been atempting to dig for the rest of the muslim world.

The simple crux of the matter has fallen to this as far as I can understand.

The MAIN difference in the Belief of Prophethood between the Shia and the Sunni is as follows:

Sunni view: The Prophets of Allah were normal human beings just like us and committed sins.

Shia view: The Prophets of Allah were EXTRAORDINARY SUPERHUMAN beings and committed no human sin of any sort.

It really does pain me to see that you continue to take the shallow end of the stick Amer, relying on surface interpretations of your own conjuncture, from the Quran AND hadith, simply and merely to win the argument it would seem.

I have spoken to Religiously educated Sunnis in the past and they have fully agreed with me. It is a SIN to say that the Prophets of Allah sinned, even if it somehow seems that way, we cannot say that they did.Why? Because there is a level beyond our comprehension toward the relationship that exists between them and Allah. IT IS NOT A NORMAL RELATIONSHIP.

Once again I am requesting you.

Speak to a handful of your own scholars upon this issue to get their viewpoint upon the matter,

prior to endlessly waving the flag that puts the very validity of Quranic revelation to doubt.

Wassalaam

Ali Ameem

sallam brothers and sisters

Iam a muslims please refer to me a muslim.
1.Adam(pbuh) broke the command of Allah,what do you call that,forgetfulness or superhuman as you my shia freind has put it.
2.Musa(pbuh)killed a man,is that just a mistake or superhuman.
3.I have noticed you always put the prophets on the same level of the shia ahalbayt????
4.contridiction is a bad habit,you dont accept sunni scholars then you do,which one is it do you doubt your shia scholars.

sallam
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
AmerIslam

SALLAM BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN ISLAM

In response to previous post,TO ALI AMMEM

Allah says: “And Adam disobeyed his Lord, so went astray. Then his Lord chose him, and relented toward him, and guided him.” (Taha: 121-122)

“Infallibility means Allah’s protection of man from involvement in sin a way that it will be impossible for him to commit it. This applies to angels and Prophets. Concerning angels, Almighty Allah says: “…who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them, but do that which they are commanded.” (At-Tahrim: 6)

As regards Prophet’s, they are infallible in the sense that they are given immunity to getting involved in apparent sins such as telling lies and internal sins such as envy, conceitedness and showing off. Being the best example to be followed, it’s natural for every Prophet to be free from sin in word and deed. Allah commanded all people to follow their own Prophets and Messengers. In this regard, Almighty Allah says: “Verily in the Messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the last Day, and remembereth Allah much.” (Al-Ahzab: 21)
By and large, we are to say that after receiving the honor of prophethood, all Prophets and Messengers are protected from involvement in sin.
Now what about their state before receiving the honor of being Allah’s inspired Messengers? This issue is controversial. While a group of people say that Prophets were also infallible in that period, others hold the view that they were fallible. The correct view, however, is that the Prophets enjoyed all-time infallibility; before or after receiving Divine mission. Before receiving Divine revelations, their status can be clarified in either of the two ways; there might not have been any Divine law that would forbid or command certain acts, thereby there would be no need of infallibility. But the inner pure nature of a Prophet requires his being a great and excellent example and his being far from involvement in any error.

However, the biography of all prophets and Messengers draws portraits of clarity, purity and noble manners and makes it crystal clear that they were as far from sin as the west is far from the east.”

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
AmerIslam

Malik Al AshtarMar(shia sheich)

The concept of Ismaa( being sinless) is very misunderstood among the shia firstly lets start with the basics , Prophets and Imams are NOT Infallible they were however sinless.

Infalliblity is when someone CANNOT commit a sin like angels, angels cannot commit a sin since they dont have free will.

The prophets and Imams were sinless due to there tremendous knowledge and a strong emaan not because they were infallible.

A baby is sinless, I can be sinless (temporarily) but the prophets and imams were sinless during there entire life.
When we see them being sinless in this way it doesnt sound too farfetched.

I dont agree with the Immams beign Sinless

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerIslam

I am so glad Amer that you have seemingly taken a 180 degree turn in your view, that the prophets never sinned.

The quote that you have taken from the Quran however seems to once again contradict everything you have explained.

The proof that Adam held a GREATER status than the Angels is for the fact that Allah commanded the whole lot of them to do Sajda toward him.

It IS evident to the Shia that Prophets were able to take control of their own free will, and in doing so refrained from comitting sins.

Whether or not this constitutes infallibillity in accordance with the Sunni view is another matter.

Regardless, their status becomes even higher than the angels because of it.

You cannot refute the sajda that the angels did toward Hazrat Adam as a proof of this.

You do not believe in the Imams being sinless despite the fact that The Holy Quran is a constant reminder for the Ahlul Bayt ( and we have established that Ayesha is not apart of it) being Purified Thoroughly as mentioned in ch33vs33.

I realise that this is a stumbling block for many Sunni's because the holy family of Muhammed pbuh consisted of Imam Ali, whom the great Sunni Sahaba Muawiah waged a civil war against.

There seems to be an inert defense/aversion system for the Ahle Sunnah wal jamaat against this whole issue. I feel it is because they are afraid of coming face to face with the truth of the corruption within their chosen system of caliphate.

Any way. I had written to you earlier on, this morning, in referrence to one of your comments but was unable to post it.

I paste it here below.

The Prophet was not a man JUST LIKE US! This is where some Sunnis have really messed up. What is the point of claiming all that love for him when it amounts to nothing but the comparison of love for an uncle or brother?

May our parents lives be sacrificed for you Oh Muhammed!

The failure of Adam to not go near the tree or touch it's fruit, was at the level of TARK AL AWLA (Leaving the prefferable option).

This means that the command of Allah in relation to forbidding Adam to go near the tree or eat it's fruit was set at a categoric level, which was at the most for him, not to do something that was undesirable (Makruh).

It is not only sins therefore that a person may wish to ask forgiveness for, but he may ask forgiveness for the undesirable acts, for the things which he has done which are LESS PREFFERED.

Allah Subhana wata Aala may therefore still be able to FORGIVE somebody for not having done as many GOOD acts in the day as he should have done.

If the Prophet Adam was JUST LIKE US then why did Allah Subhana wata Aalah continue to speak to him through the Angel Gabriel after sending him down to earth?

Has the Angel Gabriel ever spoken to you?

I rest my case.

On the one hand you criticise the Shia for taking the Imams up to the levels of Prophethood and on the other hand you bring the Prophets down to your own level.

It seems that you haven't even understood what Prophethood is.

I pray that Allah Subhana wa ta Aala expands your brain.

When it says in the Quran that Allah taught Adam "their names", the names that had been taught to him were none other than Mohammed, Ali, Fatema, Hassan and Hussein - alongside the knowledge of their qualities and their attributes.

Allah Subhana wata Aala had created these spirits thousands of years before the creation of Adam. This fact corresponds with the viewpoint of the historical Sunni Classicists.

Infact forget about what Adam alayhissalaam did. The angels themselves DARED TO OBJECT upon Allah's decision to make Adam the Khalifa on the Earth!

And it was Adam who then taught the names of the Prophet Mohammed's family to the angels proving that Allah had given more knowledge to him than even them.

He had made Adam a Khalifah on the earth which was a status that even they themselves could not achieve, even though they wanted to.

And then Allah ordered for the angels to do sajda toward Adam and Iblis refused on account of his pride.

When Adam finally asked for forgiveness for his actions he implored Allah in the name of Mohammed, Fatema, Ali, Hassan and Hussein.

All the prophets were aware of these holy personages and of their forthcoming appearance on the face of this earth.

Through their Prophets the Christians and the Jews were aware of this also.

To this day the Jews are still awaiting the arrival of Imam Ali; having sadly missed the boat each of there new born male children are passed through a black square whilst their Rabbis wear a black cube strapped to their forehead; the knowledge that their saviour had actually been born in the Ka'aba House of God had sadly passed them by.

The divinely appointed leadership of Mohammed and his family is something that had been preset before time, before the creation of our great ancestral grandfather Adam alayhisalaam.

The sacrifice of Hussein at the battle field of Kerbala bears little importance for those who wish to make great weight of their 4 rightly guided caliphs in comparison.

These people have not understood the epic greatness that was Mohammed pbuh as saviour of the human race through his bloodline IMAM AL MEHDI alayhisalaam.

Allah had designated Imam Hussein as Khalifah on the earth. If the rest of the muslim world had recognised this then he would have had more than just 72 Shias on his side on that fateful day of Ashura.

The vengeance of Aale Mohammed over this bloodthirsty battle has as yet been unfulfilled, and we await the coming of Jesus so that their truthfull right upon the minbar can finally be regained.

May Allah give success to the seekers of truth and knowledge, via the wisdom of Imam Hussein's father, the immediate successor to Mohammed, Imam Ali alayhisalaam.

Wassalaam.

Ali Ameem.

PS. You refer to yourself as neither Sunni or Shia. Hopefully this implies you are open minded. And, it is the reason why I make reference to both points of view. The individual Hadiths that have been designated as Sahih by our scholars, amongst the massive collection of Shia works, are regarded by me in the same light.

The Prophet Mohammed and his family are upon the same level of purity. Of this there is no doubt. Imamate and Khilafat are in continuum, and Prophethood is not the be all and end all.

If Musa killed a man and you're still saying the Prophets are infallible only five minutes after arguing that they weren't then yes, it's superhuman.

Are you really from Australia? It's the question mark thing.

Wassalaam.

Ali Ameem.

sallam

When Adam finally asked for forgiveness for his actions he implored Allah in the name of Mohammed, Fatema, Ali, Hassan and Hussein.

were in all the fabricated shia ahadith did youfind this one,this is one of the best ones i have heard .If you believe in the bloodline of the prophet(bpuh)what happened to Hamza or even the father of Imam Ali who died as a KUFFIR the uncle of the prophet Mohammad(pbuh),AND WHY isnt Aisha r.a from the ahal bayt,why is SHIA from ahal bayt.Is your Mother(R.A) from your family and your ahalbayt(no offence to your mother in anyway)
The story of the Cave of the 3youth (khaf) is written in the Quran lets use the Quran as insepration,Allah is showing us the sacrafice of this youth,not an event that people smack,crying out louad(wailing)slitting themselves and roaming the streets claiming they feel upset angry of what happened on the great day of KARBALA.
The prophet mohammad(pbuh) is on a differnt level then all prophets(pbuh) and man,no Immam or even your 11 Immams can reach his status or even the staus of any prophet,so dont even compare them(immams)to the Prophets its and insult my dear freind Prophets are choosen by Allah and not Man.

Sallam
ALLAH KNOWS BEST

AmerIslam

Milad un Nabi Should be respected.

Dear Amer

You are grossly mistaken about the father of Imam Ali. Any such hadith collection that you scraped this one from must be full of worms.

It was none other than Abu Talib who recited the Marraige ceremony of Mohammed and Khadija.

Go on. Ask your scholars who recited Mohammed's marraige ceremony.

If they don't know then ask them to find out and get back to you.

When they finally tell you it was Imam Ali's dad then ask yourself this.

How on earth is it possible for a Kafir to recite the marraige ceremony of a Prophet?!

This is basically the result of slander against Ayesha's and Muawiah's prime no1 Arch enemy.

No end of false narrations must have been bandied about against the Imam when when Muawiah had been conspiring to take him on.

Once again it is not ME who is comparing the Imams to the Prophet Mohammed's family, it is the rest of the muslim world, when in their daily prayers they are asking Allah to bless them in the same way that Ibraheem and his family had been blessed.

Once again it is Allah who is drawing the level of purity of the Ahlul Bayt within the same category as Mohammed through the Quranic Ch33vs33.

Ayesha and Fatema are NOT part of the same family, because Fatema is the mother of Imam Hassan and Hussain and Ayesha is the mother of no one.

When Umar was informed of Mohammed's death he raised his sword threatening to kill anyone who testified to the truth of the matter.

All the 'authentic' hadith refferences are testimony to this fact.

This type of behaviour is FAR from anything that the Prophetic Sunnah exemplified, rather they mourned for the passing away of their own family members; they did NOT go about brandishing swords threatening to kill people.

You only have to look at the Quranic example of how far Ya'qoob wept for his son, UNTIL HE WENT BLIND to realise what it means to mourn none other than the children of Mohammed.

Furthermore I have no confidence that you are even AWARE of the authentic refferences to the Panjatan Paak within Sunni, sorry, muslim hadith literature.

Finally, being as uninformed as you are, toward the culture, ways and history of the Ahlul Bayt, all that I have left to say to you brother is that YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE BEST OF IT YET.

Islam does NOT end with the Prophethood of Mohammed my friend.

This is where Islam starts.

Wassalaam.

sallam

yalatif mohammad(pbuh) is the seal of islam,end of story dear brother.

Incorrect. Mohammed (pbuh) is the seal of the Prophets. ISLAM continues.

asslam.
i want to make it really short .some people say that moh[PBUH] did commit some sins [was not tahir]
why you people dont believe that he was not like us .he was a super natural personality do you people believe in GOD he said in quran TAHA which means tahir which concludes that he never committed any sin .

i wanna add something
allah said in quran you HAVE to obey a single order of mohd[PBUH].otherwise you will no longer be muslim
aNd wHo DiDnT oBeY the OdEr of moh[PBUH] just before some moments of his death [manazul maot]

Yeah. People talk about following the Sunnah. What about following The Prophet for a change.

Umar wasn't in need of The Prophet Mohammed when he was being ordered by him to get paper and pen, was he?

"The Quran is enough for us"? What a nonsensical reply.

Such a small request. Why didn't he do it?

sallam
yous "shias" are always making up fabricated stories ahadith,were do you get you imigination from.
ALISHAH please seek the right knowledge but i think your one of those shia that have their own record of the Quran.
(Revealed at Mecca - contains 135 verses - 8 sections)
[Ta-Ha 20:1] Ta-Ha.* (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him) (Alphabets of the Arabic language - Allah and to whomever He reveals know their precise meanings.)

I think Allah has made you another SINLESS Immam ALISHAH,were do you get your guidence from the 7 immam or the 9th Imamm???
The Quran is not enough for the non belivers but surley more than enough the belivers,but your are the greedy ones.
I think you know more about what happened after the prophet(pbuh)than your own religon.
I wish you follow AHALYBAYT correctly because if you did you wouldnt be only 10-15 percent from the hole islamic nation.
Immam Ali burnt 200 people from his tribe alive beacuse they said he was god,learn from the mistakes people did.
ALLAH IS ONE AND MOHAMMAD IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH.
NO ONE ELSE IS INCULDED IN THE SHAHDA,BUT YOUS NEED MORE OF COURSE,NOT ENOUGH GUIDENCE AND AFTER ALL THE GREAT IMMAMS YOUS FOLLOW YOUS STILL NEED MORE GUIDENCE SUBHANALLAH WHEN WILL THE GUIDENCE END???????????
I like that name star,are you muslim star

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
AmerIslam

Ever heard of Jesus?

The majority of Muslims don't follow the Ahlul bayt. That's why they failed to protect Imam Hussein at the battle of Kerbala.

They didn't need Imam Hussein's GUIDANCE then-and they certainly don't need it now.

Like Amer they are self taught scholars

who came to announce over one thousand four hundred years after the Quran was revealed

that we don't need any GUIDANCE.

Bravo Amer. You might just get a following yet.

PS. The people who usurped the Khilafat from Imam Ali are infact the 'Greedy Ones'.

Yeah. The Shia's are 'greedy' for Imam Ali, 'greedy' for Imam Hussein, 'greedy' for their knowledge and 'greedy' for their guidance.

Whilst GREED for The Khilafat is something that is specifically attributed to the so called Sahabis of the Muslim majority.

I am tired of listening to the same old rantings as to how the history of what happened after the The Prophet is of no importance,

whilst the ranters themselves are attempting TO MAKE HISTORY in the process.

The Quran was saved from distortion through the miraculous efforts of Imam Hussein and his ongoing Ahlul Bayt.

However, it is the history books of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaa'at that are littered with examples as to how the Quran was 'read in such and such a way' and of how certain verses were either added or taken away etc, etc.

This seperate miraculous OTHER version of the Quran that the SHIA are supposed to have doesn't exist,

except within the closed limited skull of the prejudiced narrow minded muslim bigot who has not a single leg to stand on in making such a claim.

If, as a matter of principle you say Aliyyun Valiyullah or anything else for that matter AFTER having said the Shahadah, it can hardly mean that you fall in to the category of Kaafir.

Besides, the Sunni's have got SIX official Kalemah's!

How on earth do you explain that, if the exactness of the declaration of faith is so precious to you?

Finally, in Sahih Al Bukhari it is specifically narrated by ibn Abbas, that whilst the Prophet Mohammed was on his death bed he asked for a pen and paper, so that he could write for the people something which if they followed, they would never go astray.

Umar was in the prescence of that particular gathering and he specifically refused this request through stating 'the prophet is delirious' and 'besides, the Quran is enough for us'.

As ibn Abbas narrates 'after this there was a hue and cry', the people started arguing until Mohammed became increasingly annoyed and sent the gathering out.

The event was was labelled as 'The Calamity of Thursday'.

This event is NOT a fabricated Hadith but is to be found in the most authentic collection of works as considered by the majority muslim ummah - Sahih Al Bukhari.

This is something Amer, that happened WITHIN the lifetime of the Prophet Mohammed, NOT AFTER.

EVERY time a muslim says to me THE QURAN IS ENOUGH FOR US, in debate or otherwise I am instantly bound to hark back to the woeful CONTRADICTION of Umar, who refused point blank the Prophet Mohammeds request,

whilst it was the request of ALLAH through THE SAME QURAN for the Prophet Mohammed to be OBEYED and listened to.

Despite the narration's clear authenticity even the majority scholars of today argue about it's validity, realising the huge implications that such a seemingly minor incident could certainly have.

If you have mentioned Mohammed(pbuh) Amer, as part of this Islamic guidance then you have exceeded the second Caliph of the Muslim Ummah, in your acknowledgement to obey and follow the command of your Final Prophet.

It is incidences such as the one that I have narrated above, that have brought the writers of traditions to argue their point that Mohammed WAS an ordinary human being, who DID make mistakes and who occasionally was EXCUSED from being obeyed,

on the precipise of bringing him down to the level of the ordinary Sahabah

for the sake of their own defence.

Let us reject the false guidance of these imposters who stole the Minbar of the Ahlul Bayt out of greed and want for power and money.

The KHALIFATULLAH is chosen by none other than Allah.

Let us accept the GUIDANCE of the Imam Ali AFTER The Prophet Mohammed.

Let him lead us into battle against Aisha.

May our ancestors be at the side of Jesus,
as he fights under the command of the twelfth Imam Al Mehdi as.

May Allah prolong the lives of them both.

Oh blood of Mohammed, what strength is there in you that the Messiah would be led by you in the prayer on that day?

When the Dajjal shall be defeated and JUSTICE will be brought about upon this earth.

Wassalaam

sallam
Do you Think Allah would ask us in the grave about all this no reward topic NO,NO,NO
Allah IS one
Mohammad is the messenger of ALLAH(PBUH),The prophets ways are is plenty enough for me.
Prepare to Be questioned by Mohammad(pbuh) About the mother of the belivers were ALLAH cleared her in the holy quran,ARE YOU PREPARED!
Shia have their own secret hadith and evidence.

You never ACKNOWLEDGE ALLAH is ONE and The Prophet(pbuh) is the messenger Of ALLAH,do you acknowledge this brother is islam or Immam Ali is some where is the shahada???

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

AmerIslam

THE GOLDEN AGE

THE GOLDEN AGE OF CALIPHATE
HAS ENDED WITH ALI.
SO TAKE THE GOLDEN CHANCE MY FRIEND
TO ACT ON HIS DECREE.
THIS TIME, IT WILL NOT COME AGAIN
SO TAKE THE GOLDEN CHANCE
TO FIGHT THE ENEMY OF GOD
WITH BATTLE SHIELD AND LANCE.

BUT DO NOT KILL THE MUSLIMS
BECAUSE THIS WILL BE HARAM.
THE HYPOCRITES HAVE COME TO
FIGHT AGAINST THE TRUE ISLAM.
AT THE BATTLE OF JAMAL
IS AISHA IN COMMAND,
TO FIGHT THE FATHER
OF HUSSEIN SHAHEED OF KARBALA.

SO DO NOT KILL THE MUSLIMS
BUT THE HYPOCRITES I PRAY.
YOU'LL UNDERSTAND THAT ALI
IS YOUR CALIPH IN THIS WAY.
ALI IS YOUR CALIPH
AND IF HE TELLS YOU TO FIGHT
IT'S NOT FOR YOU TO THEN DECIDE
WHAT MIGHT BE WRONG OR RIGHT.

AISHA IS CONTENDING
AS THE WIDOW OF A MAN
WHO SAID HIS BROTHER IS ALI.
HOW CAN YOU UNDERSTAND
THE NOTION THAT IT IS HALAL
TO TAKE A MUSLIMS LIFE?
ALI KILLED THE HYPOCRITES
THAT BACKED THE PROPHETS WIFE.

DON'T SHUDDER IN YOUR BOOTS MY
FRIEND I SAY YOU KNOW IT'S TRUE.
SHE TURNED UPON HER HEELS JUST
LIKE THE WIFE OF PROPHET NUH.
'LIKENED' TO THE MOTHER
OF BELIEVERS AS IT WERE.
IT MEANS IT HAS BECOME
HARAM FOR THEM TO MARRY HER.

FOR SHE IS NOT THE MOTHER
OF ALI AND THOSE WHO DIED
IN THE BATTLE THAT SHE LEAD
ON CAMELBACK; DEPRIVED
SHE WAS OF ALL THE KNOWLEDGE
THAT WAS PASSED FROM HER NABI.
SHE BIT THE HAND THAT FED THE
MUSLIM UMMAH. CAN'T YOU SEE

THE DIFFERENCE IN A MUSLIM
AND A HYPOCRITE? OH PLEASE!
THE WOOD IS IN THE FOREST.
YOU CAN'T SEE IT FOR THE TREES.

"ALI IS WITH THE TRUTH
AND THE TRUTH IS WITH ALI"

Hadith,
Mohammed pbuh.

Brother.

It as if the website we are on reflects that which we are.'Jack of all trades, but master of none'.

However, like the magpies that we are we give it a go anyway.

Once again, Aisha is only LIKENED to the mother of believers.

So, in the same way it would be haram to marry your own mother - it would have been Haram to marry any of the Prophets wives after his passing away.

The question is, is Aisha prepared to answer on the day of Judgement as to why she endorsed the killing of Imam Ali's soldiers in the infamous battle of the camel?

How is it possible that she is CLEARED as you say when AFTER Mohammed she went against all of her husband's commands by turning the Master of Believers into an Arch enemy?

You and me Amer, are not responsible for the death of anyone. We have not ordered the killing of other muslims. WE are cleared inshallah from at least this Ilzaam.

But the enemies of the fourth Khalifah? Think about it my friend. There is something very wrong here that you must come to terms with. Otherwise Allah may question YOU on your allegiances in the hereafter.

SECRET HADITHS and evidences my friend? The TRUTH is open and is as clear as daylight.

YOUR fourth Khalifa and a rebellious wife of a Prophet are in battle against each other. There is a sword in your hand.

Now you ask yourself this in your own time, and think very carefully before giving yourself the answer.

Whose side are you on?

May Allah take you out of confusion.

Wassalaam.

sallam brothers in islam

As i Said earlier will ALLAH THE ALL MIGHTY ask us who did what and why and when, NO.
You dont know why I dont care either way because the prophet did not teach us this.
1.FIVE PILLIARS OF ISLAM
ALLAH IS ONE AND MOHAMMAD(PBUH) IS THE MESSENGER OFF ALLAH.
2.PRAY
3.FAST
4.ZAKAT
5.PREFORMING HAJJ
BROTHERS AND SISTERS their is no benifet or reward of this political chines wispers weak understanding of what happend after the prophet(pbuh).
shia/sunni get so caught up in political mess and forget to worship ALLAH with a open heart.
SHIA is like NAZI's always hating
SUNNI is always saying we are bigger in number.
WHERE IS THE IMMAN,OUR BROTHER AND SISTERS IN PALESTINE,IRAQ,CHENENYA,BANGHLADESH AND MANY OTHER ISLAMIC COUNTRIES ARE GETTING KILLED INNOCENTLY.
Do we have a wright to call ourselves muslim????
If abu bakr r.a or Umar r.a Uthman r.a or Immam Ali was alive do you think they will be sharing opnion on this no reward subject or doing the true muslim duty helping our brothers and sisters around the world.
You and me have love for Ahalabayt were is it,we are the liers and weak.Hussein R.a had 75men against couple of hunderds men SOME of his men dogged him,but still he had the true imman to continue and he went to war and ALLAH made him victories and took him as a shaheed.
WE ARE DOING FOR OUR UMMAH.
ALL THESE CLAIMS AND BACK BITTING what benifet to get out of it NOTHING lets do something for our UMMAH lets be like these great men before us and not just ISLAM BY NAME.
25 PROPHETS MENTIONED IN THE HOLY QURAN LETS BY JUST LIKE 1 IS ENOUGH.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salaam Amer,

Between you and me we've managed to trump up a huge amount of comments resulting in this slot being the MOST commented upon in the Micheal Williams website.

If this is a no reward no win situation then what are you still doing here trying to convince every body else of the same?

Out of the 25 prophets that you mention the last one of them is the most important because of his family who carried the message on after him.

The Prophet Mohammed was not AT the battle of Kerbala. It was up to Imam Hussein to fight for the TRUTH and dignity in Islam against the Bastard oppressors like Yazid.

He was the real NAZI! The Muslim Khalifah who put ALL those essential five pillars of faith at risk by attempting to wipe out the MISSION of Mohammed.

We WILL be questioned about our allegiances. We CANNOT support oppressors like Yazid. A no reward no win situation exists if you are NOT prepared to make a decision between right and wrong.

I am so glad Amer, that you have finally managed to draw an historical parallel between what happened at Karbala and who we should be taking as our role models - These Great Men.

There may be hope for the Muslim Ummah yet.

Wassalaam.

Dear Brother and Sisters in Islam S/a,

I will start by thanking Allah for having blessed upon mankind not only a religion but a way of life; this is Islam. A way of life that is most perfect, that is based on logic that is based on the truth and one that is fully complete and perfect. Islam I believe need not be shoved upon someone, it stands out on its own. Its beauty is in the fact that it agrees with the laws of nature, laws of biology and physical laws of nature. In Islam I believe every law, every thing that is made haraaam or halal has a reason behind it, it has logic behind it. This is because this religion was given to us by the most Merciful, most Kind ALLAH (SWT), One who infinite in power, and is perfect perfection. There is only one Islam ONLY ONE true Islam. This is Islam is as the one taught by the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) and as practiced by him. To be honest after having read the several arguments btn my muslim brothers a lot of my doubts about my religion has been cleared and as a result my faith strengthened. The guys who claim that these discussions are a debate and a way to cause disunity are I believe very shallow ignorant people who do not want to open their eyes to the HAQ. There cannot be two rights, one is right one is wrong. There is only one true right path. This path need not be the one that is most popular. One that is most widely accepted instead this path should be a path one that is true and one that does not contradict itself.

I am a born Sunni; my parents are both Sunni and strong followers of this path. After having read these discussions and having read numerous books I must say that the Shia path is the path of Siraat-ul-mustakeem. Its nothing about winning or loosing situation. It’s about finding the true path. On reading the arguments put forward by brother Ali Ameem I am more than ever sure that I have chosen the right path. The only regret I have is that I should have chosen it earlier. Brother Ameer to be honest I was just like you. Due to my pride and ignorance I always blocked out the truth and it just stood up for itself. Then I opened up my heart and weighted things out, instead of just saying that most of the Muslim Ummah is Sunni therefore they must be right I decided to check both ideas and compare both arguments logically for Islam is a religion based on logic. There are several hadith in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari and all the other sahih books that are utterly ridiculous. Many of them contradict themselves. I’ll give you examples, there is a hadith that says the Prophet Musa (PBUH) was seen in the public nude, naudhobillah!!! Does that enter your head? How can a prophet who is divinely selected by God do such a sinful act., you tell me, and yet it is quoted in the Sahih Muslim. Another examples there is a MUTAWATIR hadith that is quoted in several books of the Ahlsunah: It says: Whomsoever disappoints Fatemah (daughter of the Prophet), has disappointed the Prophet and whomsoever has disappointed the Prophet has disappointed ALLAH.
Then there is another MUTAWATIR hadith that is quoted in several books of the Ahlsunah that says Aisha has said that Abubakar the first caliph had at one time disappointed Fatemah the daughter of the Prophet so much so that she never wanted to speak to him till her death. Abubakar didn’t want to give the land of Fadak that was gifted to Fatemah by her father, Prohet Muhammad (PBUH). His argument behind this was that prophet do not inherit anything, yet in the Quran it is clearly stated that:

‘AND SULAIMAN (Solomom) INHERITED DAGWOOD (David)?’, AND WHEN IT NARRATES THE STORY OF ZAKARIA AND SAYS: ‘SO GIVE ME AN HEIR AS FROM THYSELF; (ONE THAT) WILL INHERIT ME, AND INHERIT THE PROSTERITY OF YAQOOB (Jacob)’ AND ‘BUT KINDRED BY HOOD HAVE PRIOR RIGHTS AGAINST EACH OTHER IN THE BOOK OF ALLAH’, AND ‘ALLAH (THUS) DIRECTS YOU AS REGARDS YOUR CHILDREN’S (INHERITANCE) TO THE MALE, A PORTION EQUAL TO THAT OF TWO FEMALES’ AND ‘....IF HE LEAVES ANY GOODS, THAT HE MAKE A BEQUEST TO PARENTS AND NEXT OF KIN, ACCORDING TO REASONABLE USAGE; THIS IS DUE FROM THE PIOUS ONES’;

Therefore this very person whom people claim to be the first caliph was on who has disappointed ALLAH (SWT), how then can he be in a position to lead the Muslin Ummah U TELL ME? Brother its ur call decide btn the only one true path or the path that was gone wrong.

Brother Ameer you tend to surprise me you are the very person who claims that there is no Sunni or no Shia only Muslim yet you quote ahadith from the Ahl sunnah books, I must say ur thoroughly confused decide btn the right and wrong. They aint no two right only one its your call.

Brother Ali Ameem I must thank you with the bottom of my heart you have inspired me to the true path. I pray God gives you the strength and courage to continue in your discussions and give you a long life so u can continue to guide people towards this path of Siraat ul mustkeem.

I would like to end by saying that I hope none of our Ahl Sunnah brother takes the discussions in the wrong way. Unlike what is thought we consider you as Muslim brothers. And we should at this time unite when it comes to political issues that affect Muslims.

Assalaam un alaykum, dear Umar Sajid.

Thankyou for having bothered to read through the scraps of information that me and Amer have been putting together over the past few weeks. I seriously thought for a while that we were battling out on our own with no one there to witness.

Brother. May Allah accept your sincere efforts in research toward finding the true, logical and compassionate road toward the love of Islam through The Prophet Mohammed pbuh, the Quran and his family who were the most knowledgable in relation to it.

Now my friend it is YOU who have inspired me and there will always be a prayer in my heart, because you have made use of your own sense in casting aside a veil that has been wavering infront of the truth.

Their books have been stamped and labelled as SAHIH, through a series of deliberate techniques which involve minimal contribution and reportage via the true interpretors of The Faith; that is the Prophet Mohammeds Family.

And there would be no such contention with us had they not placed these collections in rank second only to the Quran, but because they have finalised their belief through them they have exposed the incredible cracks pertaining to their beliefs in the concept of The Rightly Guided Caliphate, as they view it, and upon their delusional view of the life of their prophets.

Once again, it is clear to see, the act of the Prophet Moses being exposed as nude infront of the people (Astaghfirullah)! , is a fabrication to bring The Messengers of Allah DOWN to the level of the average adhock Sahabah, who would at times be guided by The Prophet, and at other times be guided by their own whimsical judgements and desires.

The Great Sahih works do not stop there either. They take it further and attribute similar incidences happening to Mohammed pbuh (unbelievable)! in the same way they had done with Moses.

Is there not in this a clear parallel with the Jews who were famed for mocking and ultimately rejecting the dignity, command and guidance of their own prophets?

I do not mean to accuse the Sunnis as such, but the inventors of such fabricated narrations.

May Allah bless you Umar Sajid, because you have recognised in all clarity the beginnings of oppression through your research, of the holy daughter of Mohammed, via the usurpers of the Caliphate, who prevented Fatima tu Zahra from obtaining The Garden of Fidak, which belonged only to her.

May Allah bless the speach of Fatima tu Zahra, who stood in the court of Abu Bakr and used the verses of the Quran to prove her God given right of inheritance.

Her anger toward Abu Bakr on the issue of him denying her this is CLEARLY stated in Al Bukhari, alongside her refusal to speak to him UP UNTIL THE DAY THAT SHE DIED, alongside her husband Imam Ali who DID NOT ACCEPT THE KHILAFAT OF ABU BAKR up until the time that she died, being a PERIOD OF SIX MONTHS.(!)

I used to have the original photocopy from Al Bukhari in my pocket, explaining exactly the above.The whole suspect nature of the situation is clearly very apparent. Something here after Mohammed has passed away, has obviously gone VERY WRONG.

I tried to discuss the issue with a Sunni brother in the workplace, but instead of using his common sense he continued to stall me, attempting to put me in the direction of somebody ' more knowledgable '.

I eventually showed it to an elderly, ex British Army man, who had served some time in Iraq in his younger days and who thought 'THE SHIAS ARE CRAZY' and the Sunnis 'moderate'. He was infact quite well informed.

Brother, after reading it EVEN HE could tell the serious discrepancy that was at hand, with regards to the issues of inheritance and legitimacy of succession!

It pains the Shias to think of how the soldiers in Yazids Army ripped the Hijab from the head of Imam Hussains sister Zainab - but it was THE CHRISTIANS of Shaam who recognised her holy status and gifted it back to her, only for the criminal soldiers of Yazid to rip it off again.

Can we not see in these examples of how the status of THE HYPOCRITES are clearly worse than that of the Kafirs?

The road to Karbala is not an easy road to travel down my friends, neither physicaly nor spiritually.It's events are a constant reminder to the Muslim Populace of how easy it is to sway on to the track of the devil, should you deny the rightful position gifted to Mohammed's family.

My dua is with you Umar Sajid, because as someone who was once a Sunni you have set an example for the other brothers of that faith, that it is possible also for them to open their eyes, to see the light of truth on the face of Imam Ali following onto his son Imam Hussain, and be guided by it.

May the sisters in Islam also be inspired by the plight of the OPPRESSED Zainab alayhisalaam, the brave and outspoken daughter of Imam Ali, as opposed to Ayesha the rebellious OPPRESSOR of Imam Ali.

If only the so called leaders of the Muslim Ummah had bothered to at least TAKE CARE of the innocent souls that were
Fatima, Hassan, Hussain and Ali, instead of inadvertently setting them up for the slaughter, then the same Muslim Ummah would not be in the mess that it is in today.

May Allah give ALL the Muslims the insight to ponder IN DEPTH upon the situation of the same Khilafah system that lead up to the Tragedy of Kerbala.

Finally, my friend Umar Sajid, I am leaving you the telephone number of a very good man, Bashir Karim who distributes books on topical issues pertaining to the Sunni and the Shia and various other Islamic topics via PANJETANI BOOKS whom you may have heard of. He is a good friend also and can be contacted on the Peterborough Landline 01733 347514.

Infact if there is anyone who is interested in information on relative Islam topics then they may contact the same number.Books are mass produced and are VERY cheap at only 99p.

So Mr Sajid.If you DO live in the UK it is possible that we may all get together sometime for dinner and a cup of tea and a chat.

I cannot of course forget Amer who will of course be invited.

Inshallah I pray that we meet at one point in time or another.

Wassalaam

sallam brothers and sisters
allhamdolliah,our share of topics between myself and brother AliAmeem has brought one more muslim closer allhamdollilah.
This is not a debate,for me its a lessons to gain information on what so called sunni and shia have tension about,i wanted to know why some much difference and tension between both sides?
I always when i say to a muslims brother that iam a muslim,they say muslim what,sunni shia wahai etc,NO allahamdolliah iam A muslim that it,they look at me in a weired why liked their surprised,Why have muslims gone against ALLAHS words when, ALLAH SAYS in the holy quran,do not die unless your in te state of ISLAM.
The prophet(pbuh) called himself a muslim not sunni or shia it labelling is bidah.
during this last few weeks gaining knowledge from brother AliAmmem R.A,i asked my self what iam doing for my self and my muslims bro/sis around the world,NOTHING!
All i gained was knowledge that does not benifet me or the muslim nation.
I have said early that it doest matter to me who was meat to be 1,2,3,4 to me The prophet(pbuh) is more than any man or prophets as examples and guidences.
The Holy Quran states Surely mohammad we have sent you as a mercy and a wanner to mankind.
I follow the prophet(pbuh)his camponions and his family,The Pillars of islam will never change the SUNNAH of the prophet mohammad(pbuh) will never change.
Inshallah muslims can talk about these sujects that some muslims can talk about in well mannerd way.
I really think this subject does not benifet any one,why???
We have the quran to learn its miracales,its beauty,its sceince,its language and so one,then ALLAH has mentioned 25 prophets(pbuthem)all of them need many hours and days to know who they were,Then you have other people that have been mentioned in the holy quran example,maryam(as) the kids of the cave,luqman,the family alImran and so one,the Finally the greatesT man ever TO be created MOAHMMAD(PBUH).
So really their is no time to think and investigated AND research when ALLAH has given you a book that will lead straight paradise.So why does man want to know something that is not in the HOLY QURAN,THE shaytan knows man very well.
allhamdolliah for the other brother umar,i have no pride because if i did i wont even bother to reply or even give sallam to brother ALI.
The holy quran needS our hole life to know its beauty lets not waste time with events that ONLY ALLAH KNOWS OF BEST OF and let ALLAH jude whom he wills.
On A differnt note, AHMAD DEEDAT and shayk dr zakir nayk WHAT DO YOU THINK OF them.
Also brother Ali,ABU TALEB what do you know of the subject(even thou we dont get any rewards for this just qurious)

SALLAM WA ALAYKUM TO ALL BROTEHRS AND SISTERS
MAY ALLAH GIVE VICTORY TO THE MUHAJIDEEN(INSHALLAH)
ALLAH KNOWS BEST

amerislam

If shia is Kaffir than tell me this why didnt they arrive on the burial of Prophet(pbuh).where were they.
If u people use fuck shia than tell me why Ayesha went with Mawiyah to fight of jamal against Ali(as) its written in Quran>
Who burned the house of Imam Ali(as) and who captured the "Fidak"when Prophet(pbuh) gave to the Fatima (as).
U know wwhat watch your mouth before every one talks.If u think u are right on your way and u are going to the right way that shut up dont fuck around at all.do what ever u wanna do., let us do what we have to do .inshallah we will meeet u the Day of Judgment?
GOD bless u all .

question for sunnis

Dear ALi, Salaam

I made the mistake of earlier on using foul and abusive language on this website. I am ashamed of this and I take the opportunity now to ask anyone I have offended to forgive me. According to Imam Baqir a person who uses abusive language will not enter the gates of heaven, so please ALi, we should try to make our point, as the Quran says in 'the best way'.

Brother Amer, to quote you

'..really their is no time to think and investigate AND research when ALLAH has given you a book that will lead straight paradise. So why does man want to know something that is not in the HOLY QURAN...'?

In reply I would say that, in one of the MOST ESSENTIAL chapters of this Quran it states

'Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have BLESSED' Quran - Al Hamd vs 6-7

It is noted by the famed narrator of authenticated traditions, ibn Abbas, from the majority sect, that he said

" Guide us to the straight path means, 'Oh Allah guide us toward the love of Mohammed and his children' ".

Therefore it is clear to note that the children of Mohammed ARE in the Quran and that it is through the practical application, of applying this LOVE for his children, that we may eventually attain Paradise; rather than USE the Quran as a basis in itself to attain those means.

If The Holy Quran '..needs our whole life' as you say, then surely it is not a waste of time to investigate the lives of The AhlulBayt alongside the other great personalities as you have mentioned, in the light of this.

Have you seen The Message? I ask you one thing. Ever heard of a good Kaafir? I am not sure if the Islamic concept exists but if ever there was one then the Sunnis would say it was Abu Talib.

It is a sheer tragedy to note the fabrications that have occured to give this great man and HELPER of the Prophet, this insult beyond injury.

Without quoting the direct refferences it is enought to note, the concensus of the Muslim Majority believe that on the day of Judgement Abu Talib's punishment in hell will be of the LEAST type: a pot of boiling water upturned and placed over the top of his head.

This is the same man that used to protect Mohammed from the pagan stone throwers. This is the same man that according to authenticated refferences, recited the marraige ceremony of Mohammed and Khadija.

This is Imam Ali's father, and, for this reason alone, to contest the legitimate and pure birth of Imam Ali, a concocted fabrication has come about through no doubt the conspiring propaganda of the likes of Muawiah who eventually managed to con, decieve and rile the populace up so that they would eventually fight against their own fourth Khalifa.

Once again Amer, it is impossible to answer these questions without delving into the histories of Islamic civil conflicts. So I shall end here.

Amongst the Shia community that I am a part of, which consists mainly of East African Asians, Ahmed Deedat is seen as a very well respected gentleman, who not only was famed for his unique style of debate against the Christians, but also for his support of The Islamic Revolution in Iran in the late seventies/early eighties. May Allah reward his efforts.

Finally. There are many more specific refferences Amer, to Imam Ali, Imam Hussein and Mohammeds family in the Holy Quran and I do pray that in your life you WILL have the time and foresight to investigate them.

May Allah inspire the want for you to ALWAYS be a seeker of knowledge.Aamin.

Wassalaam.

sallam bro/sis
Ali you metioned that you used fowl language,the last post by The name of Ali was that you or some else?if it was you may ALLAH forgive you(inshallah),but i understand sometimes it get fustratig.
I Testify ALLAH IS ONE AND MOHAMMAD(PBUH) IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH,AND I TESTIFY THAT ANYONE THAT THE PROPHET LOVED OR HELPED HIM IN ANY BATTLES,OR MARRIED OR GAVE HIM GUIDENCE,SURLEY THEY HAVE BEEN BLESSED.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salaam Brother Amer.

The last message by the name spelt 'ALi' was not me.

I was disturbed to read and find out today that apparrently, Mohammed HAD divorced two of his wives.

I was sincerely under the impression, up until that point that no prophet had EVER divorced ANY wife.

I am looking into this further.

Some of the Sahabah were loyal in battle and stood their ground no matter what.

Some, as the Quran has stated, in the battle of Uhud ran away through fear, whilst The Prophet was 'calling them from behind'.

Allah forgave them.

However, this mistake was repeated once again in the Battle of Hunain, by THE SAME SAHABAH, as the Quran testifies.

I cannot agree fully therefore that all battle participants are truly blessed, especially when it is clear that they were unprepared to fully follow the orders and commands of the Prophet during these crucial moments.

Also, the last orders of Mohammed AFTER the incident whereby he was refused paper and pen, (and accused of being in delirium), by Umar, was for both him and Abu Bakr to join the youth USAMA under his leadership in battle.

The location of this battle was a great distance from the whereabouts of Mohammad, Medina, at that time.

Neither of them were prepared to follow Mohammed up on this, his final instruction for JIHAD.

Unsurprising, for the fact that they were unprepared also to even lend a paper and pen when requested.

Their excuse was 'Lest something should happen to you in our abscence Oh Prophet'.

In short, they knew he was going to die.

He knew he was going to die.

He wanted them as far away as possible.

They wanted to be as close to the scene of the incident as possible.

Finally, when news of Mohammed's death finally did reach the ears of Umar, it caught him unawares.

PANICKING, he raised his sword aloft and threatened to kill anyone who said Mohammed was dead.

Once again, the whole scenario is an obviously suspicious set of circmstances.

Ironically the place he SHOULD have been raising his sword was somewhere far away, with a seventeen year old commnder at his head, as Mohammed had ordered him to.

How tragic that history has attempted to attribute the fledgeling weakness and indecision of certain Sahaba, toward the greatest battle leader of them all: Our Prophet.

May Allah give us the capacity to understand the motives of the likes of Abu Sufyan, Yazid's Grandad who clearly converted to Islam under the duress of finally having met his military match,

the unswerving Commander of the Faithfull MOHAMMED pbuh, who went into the battlefield, according to the narrative of the 4th Imam, holding TWO SWORDS.

Finally,

I TESTIFY THAT ANYONE WHO FOUGHT AGAINST THE IMAM ALI, FOUGHT AGAINST THE COMMAND OF OUR PROPHET, WHO STATED CLEARLY, 'OF WHOMEVER I AM LEADER, ALI IS ALSO LEADER'.

Wassalaam.

Sallam bro/sis
Ameen

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

amerislam

Salaam brothers and sisters.

"ASK THOSE WHO KNOW,IF YOU DO NO KNOW"
Holy Quran, Surah Nahl
'The Bee'vs 43

'I am the city of KNOWLEDGE and ALI is it's gate; so, whoever wants to enter the city should come through it's gate'.
Prophet Mohammed,
Hadith, Al Mustadrak

'Ali is FROM ME and I AM FROM ALI, and nobody can discharge my duty except MYSELF OR ALI'.
Prophet Mohammed,
Hadith, Sahih Al Tirmidhi
Sunan ibn Majah

'Ali IS the MASTER of all those whom I am Master. Oh Allah! LOVE him who loves him and HATE him who hates him, HELP him who helps him, FORSAKE him who forsakes him, and turn JUSTICE with him wherever he turns'.

Prophet Mohammed,
Hadith, Tirmidhi

Wassalaam

S/a Brother Ali Ameem,
Thank-u so much in taking time to reply my messege. I would have been delighted to meet with you and Broher Ameer for a cup of coffee, unfortunately however, I live in Toronto, Canada. Inshallah if i do pass by UK at a time in the future i will for sure give you a shout.

Thanks again.

thts a true rawayat n sunnis also belive tht
in a meeting abubakar was starring ALI for really long time and aisha was observing that after this meeting when abubakar met aisha aisha asked him why you have been staring ALI for such a long time abubakar abubakar replied MOH pbuh said watching ali is ibadat n if ali is not there with u n u wanna earn some blessings from GOD say ALI ALI ALI
sunnis can never understand the post of imam

Salaam Umar Sajid

Wow. There’s a Canada/UK/Ausralia connection. I’m fairly new to internet technology usage. It’s amazing how we can just chat from across the continents.

I’m aware that there is a large Shia community and Masjid/Imambargha in Toronto. I went to Iran last summer, between late July and August with an organised group by the name of Al Asr, headed by a Maulana Sabzwary. It was absolutely wonderful with EDUCATION being the main purpose and motivation for the Journey, alongside visiting the Holy Shrine of the 8th Imam Ali Reza in Mashhad and the famed scholarly centres of learning in Qum. There were many people from US and Canada who came along , and I made some good friends. It is possible that you may have bumped into some of them.

Any way. I MAY be planing to go again this summer. Regardless. I want to pass the details over to you just incase you may wish to decide to come along also.

About the Al Asr SHORT VACACTION COURSE in Iran.

Provisions are made for both male and females to participate on the course.

It costs $1300

Dates for this year are Sun 24th Jul – Sun 24th Aug 2005

Package includes:

Visit to Holy Mausoleums

Islamic Education

Sightseeeing

Social Activities.

Mashhad, Isfahan, Qum and Tehran are all cities that visits shall be paid to.

The SVC is limited to 60 participants aged between 16 – 25 (if you are older you can apply to come as a ‘volunteer’, there’s more reward in it)! The registration takes place on a first come first serve basis so decide and register as soon as possible, if you think you may want to go this year.

It is possible to register online at www.imam-alasr.com

Further details may also be obtained from

Al-Asr Scholastic Research London UK
152 Norman Crescent Hounslow Middlesex TW5 9JW UK
Tel:+44 (0)20 88572 8960
Mobile;+44(0)7785 220 960
syedsabzwary@hotmail.com

Oh yeah. Package includes food and accomodation, which is absolutely excellent.

So my friend Umar Sajid, it is a large world out there and there is much to discover and experience as I am sure you will agree. Perhaps you have already visited such places as Iran. If so then I pray that Allah will continue to further expand your awareness for all things pertaining to the understanding of Islam-through the love of the Prophet Mohammed and his family.

May we be fortunate enough in life to complete the Hajj and Umrah, to visit the Tomb of Mohammed pbuh, and gain his Shifaah.

May we be fortunate enough to go to The Jannat ul Baqi, to visit and pay our condolences at the grave of the oppressed Imam Hassan.

May we be fortunate enough to visit Karbala so that we may further reinforce our allegience to THE KING OF MARTYRS, Imam Hussain.

Wassalaam

sallam brothers and sisters
can someone tell me how many family members are part of ahalalbayt i know only of four.
also i would like to know who was the mother of fatima(R.A),and is roukaya daughter of mohammad(pbuh) and wife of uthman part of ahalalbayt and zaineb also part of ahalbayt and how many duaghthers did the prophet(pbuh) have i total

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salaam Alisha

I pray you managed to read the details relating to THE IRAN trip that I sent in my message to Umar Sajid. As it is for sisters also I hope that you might wish to consider going there at some point in your life at least, or revisit if you have already been.

A good point.The rememberence of Ali IS an act of ibaadat.

Allah o ma Salle ala Mohammedin wa Aale Mohammed.

Wassalaam.

Ali Ameem!! may Allah (swt) bless you.
Just want to know... how you keep your cool?

Salamon Alaykom brothers and sisters
THIS ARTICLE WAS NOT WRIITEN BY ME,BUT I FOUND IT INTERSTING,WEBSITE IS (WWW.http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how_to_approach_the_shia_brother.htm)

Dear reader if you are interested in the subject I recommend that you read the whole article, although I admit it's a bit long but there are important points in the introduction that I wanted to share with you.

INTRODUCTION:

These days any one who is interested in discussion on Islamic subjects will come across a lot of discussion boards where there are a long and often-pointless debates going on between Shia Muslims and Mainstream Muslims (I prefer to use the term "Main Stream" rather than Sunnis which gives an impression of sectarianism).

The features of these kinds of debates are as follow:

They seem to be endless
In some point one of the sides starts using offensive language and usually this is the reason for ending the debate
They are repeated material that are posted every now and then in many websites

I thought as an Ex-Shia who was born in Iran in an all Shia family and Al-hamdulillah found his way later, I could have a contribution to this.

Before explaining what is an appropriate way to discuss with Shia I need to make an important point and then refer to some facts. I do apologize for the lengthy article but I think it might be interesting for my brothers/sisters.

The point:

If we consult the Hadeeth we will see that in general the Muslims are warned about entering pointless debates. It is a pity to see engaging in long and often fruitless debates over Internet wastes the valuable time of a Muslim youth. Long debates like this result in making the heart and soul dry and very materialistic. I think the time of a responsible Muslim should be devoted to his/her efforts to more effective things like education, prayer and reading Quran , improving his/her purity for the God, increasing practically useful Islamic knowledge, making him/herself a good example of a Muslim, helping others and of course enjoying life and family and friends without committing any sins.

Now some facts:

After the revolution in Iran, the Shia scholars became very powerful and they invested a lot to spread Shia'ism in Islamic countries. What they are doing in Africa? In Saudi Arabia during Hajj, in Western countries and over the net are only parts of these activities.

Every belief usually has a main stream followers and then sectarian followers. It is a simple fact that the sectarian followers always need to defend themselves against the main stream while the main stream feels less necessary to challenge the sects. This results in mainstreams having less idea about the belief of sects while sects have a rather good idea about the belief of the mainstream. This in terms results in the main stream being less prepared to discuss with the sects while sects are always prepared to discuss with the mainstream. For instance: Among Christians, Mormons have a strong discussion material when entering a debate with mainstream Christians while the Mainstream Christians have less idea about what are the Mormons all about. In the same way Shia is more prepared to discuss with mainstream Muslims. The same rule applies to Shia themselves. The Shia that are usually starting debate with mainstream Muslims are Imami (12er) Shia. However among them there are minorities like Zaidis, Ismailis, Dawoodis, Druzes, Bohras, Agakhanis, Bahayees, Nusayris etc. These minorities usually are very much prepared to enter a debate with Imami Shia while an ordinary Imami Shia usually has no idea about the belief of these minorities.

The above fact results that some of the mainstream Muslims have wrong idea about the belief of Shia and their practices.

The three points above leads us to the fourth fact: One of the reasons you find that Shia people are very much engaged in discussion with mainstream Muslims, particularly over internet is that there are lots of material available for them that they usually find a relevant answer to any question and copy and paste it in reply. These materials are loaded systematically in many shia sites and online books like: Shia Encyclopedia - Tijani's works - Peshawar Nights - Islam.org website and the rest. The latter website has even prepared a propaganda toolkit for Shia and have encouraged them to use it. They can simply print out a short article and nicely fold it like a catalogue and leave it in a mosque. Comparing to this vast activities, mainstream Muslims do not have such an access to good material.

Shia is far better in debate in English websites. This is because while most of the Shia propaganda books are translated to English, unfortunately less good Arabic books of the mainstream Muslims that provide answers have been translated to English.

Some of my brothers/sisters might not like this one but Insha'Allah they will realize that my intention is nothing but to help: Unfortunately due to some prejudice from some of the Scholars, many of the mainstream Muslims now a days have opinions that put them in a fragile position when debating with Shia. These opinions are not backed by any strong evidences and many of them are newly emerged opinions rather than old opinions. Among them are:

The belief that whatever is in Siha-Sitta is Authentic

The belief that any one who has seen the Prophet even for a short while can be considered a SAHÂBAH and thus can be trusted.

The belief that anything that SAHÂBAH and others have done during and after the death of the Prophet are right or that all their behaviour has to be justified [please note that I am not suggesting criticizing SAHÂBAH, I am just saying that we don't need to feel responsibility to justify anything they have done. Our responsibility is to defend Islam, Quran and the holy Prophet not the SAHÂBAH who after all were fallible. If we do this, then we are automatically defending the SAHÂBAH (RADIYALLÂHU'ANHUMA) as well.]

The idea that there were absolutely no conflicts between the SAHÂBAH after the passing away of the Prophet and that they all loved each other

The idea of giving the title of Kafir to anyone who is not among the mainstream Muslims.

Another point I need to make before saying how is an appropriate approach in discussing with Shia in my opinion:

I think a very big mistake that some of the Mainstream Muslims have, when discussing with Shia, is that they fall in their trap by being engaged with issues that are not really directly relevant to Shia doctrine.

All the issues below and many more that I cannot remember just now are among these directly irrelevant issues:

The story of Fadak

The story of Omar (RA) and Pen and Paper

The battles of Siffin, Jamal

The attitude of Moawiah against Ali (RA)

Karbala and the martyrdom of Hussain (RA)

The story of Ghadire Khom (this is more relevant than others but still far away from the main issue)

The debates about Tahrif of Quran

The debates about Bukhaaree and Muslim and their collections

The stories regarding our mother Ayeshah (RA)

The stories regarding Saqifah of Bani Saedeh

Combining the prayers, issues about Azan, ablution and so on

Things like visiting graves, calling a dead and so on

Etc, Etc.

The above and many other issues are important but not directly relevant to Shia doctrine. At least in theory, you may find a Muslim who is not a Shia but has an opinion about the above issues that is very similar to the opinion of Shia. Interestingly enough among some moderate Shia scholars too you might find some one who has opinions about the above issues which is very similar to the opinion of the main stream Muslims. One might be interested to have a search about the above issues but to me no matter what is your opinion about them, they have nothing to do with 12er Shia doctrine.

The above are the issues for which there are lots of material provided by Shia in Internet and Shia feels very easy and comfortable to find the relevant material and copy and paste it in a discussion. Actually for them it is like repeating a same prescription. Most of the above issues at the end rely on Hadeeth and what happens is that Shia base the argument on certain Hadeeth and mainstream Muslims base their argument on another sort of Hadeeth and they will ended up with fighting to prove a Hadeeth is authentic and the other one is not. From there they usually get no where, because first of all, people generally do not have enough knowledge about verifying if a Hadeeth is authentic and even if they do so, they still cannot prove their points cause verifying if a Hadeeth is authentic is itself depending to the words of mouths of fallible scholars. While I agree that in many of the above cases, Shia people try to disfigure the story and very ruthlessly attack great SAHÂBAH on the basis of their biased understanding of these stories, I still remain in my position that talking about the above leads the two sides to no where (as evident in the last 1000 years).

After this rather long introduction I would like to start the main issue that is:
*************************************************** How to discuss with Shia:

Let us review the doctrine of 12er Shia first, this is the doctrine that makes 12er Shia a SECT different from the mainstream Muslims and different from other Shia sects:

"The doctrine of Imaamat: Apart from Prophets, there are another group of God appointed persons called Imams. These are people who are infallible and have access to a knowledge that is not accessible by ordinary people. The world cannot be empty of an Imam otherwise it will be destroyed. In the Islamic context, these individuals are 12 people among the descendants of the Holy Prophet who are appointed by no one but God to lead Muslims. Any one who chooses any leader other than these 12 is misguided and not a complete believer. The twelfth (last) of the above Imams is Mahdi and is alive and in occultation (now) for more than 1000 years and will come out of his occultation when God wants".

The above is the core belief of 12er Shia. They consider 5 articles of belief as fundamentals of their religion. These are: Tawheed (Oneness of God) - Nabuwwat (Prophet hood) - Ma'ad (Day of Judgement) - Adl (Justice of God) and IMAAMAT (The above doctrine).

In another way to put it they some times refer to 5 pillars of Islam to be: Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj and Imaamat. They further hold that the latter (Imaamat) is the most important one.

The above shows the importance of Imaamat in Shia doctrine. And when I say Imaamat I don't mean Leadership. Certainly leadership is an important issue not only for Muslims but also for any group of people. Imaamat here means the above specific doctrine.

Now let me tell you:

When you want to help a Shia to realize how deviated he/she is from Islam or to help a fellow Muslim from the mainstream not to be deceived by Shia, there are TWO QUESTIONS that completely do the job for you:

Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Shia?

I elaborate on each of these here:

Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?

This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It's importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?

Ask Shia to ONLY give you the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this and you will see how helpless the arguments will be.

Now when you ask this from a Shia you receive different sorts of answers (and it is interesting that because the discussion is over the net, usually people cannot co-ordinate among themselves and you will receive responses from Shia that are in contradiction to each other and this in turns shows how baseless are the discussions).

Here are the most popular answers that you get:

There are also no verses in Quran to tell us how to pray. We learn some of our duties from Hadeeth not Quran .

There are certain verses but you need to look at Hadeeth to understand their true meaning cause we are advised to learn Quran from the Prophet and Hadeeth is his teachings.

Long and complicated analysis of certain verses of Quran to prove that even without the help of Hadeeth, they are proving Imaamat.

There are no mention of the name of our Prophet in Bible but still Christians need to believe in the Prophet.

The verses of Quran are usually general and it is not the style of Quran to name people (i.e. Imaams)

Quran says "follow the Prophet". There are Hadeeth from the Prophet that prove the doctrine of Imaamat and this should be enough for a Muslim if he wants to follow the Prophet.

There are not explicit verses because if they were, Quran was in danger of fabrication

Finally among the classic scholars of Shia at the old times there were some of them who hold that Quran is changed by Sahabah and that certain verses are removed from it.

Where in Quran it is said that Muslims should choose a khalifah by themselves?

Show us the names of the prophets between ... and ... in Quran if you think that every thing should be in Quran .

It is a test that's why it is not mentioned in Quran

Arguments that use few verses of Quran out of the context

Sunnis believe in Mahdi while he is not mentioned in Quran

Imaamat is not the fundamental belief of 12ers, the appointment of Ali is the fundamental of belief.

Now I'm sure most of you realize the weakness of all the above replies but let me write a brief for each of them. Using the same order of numbers:

There are also no verses in Quran to tell us how to pray. We learn some of our duties from Hadeeth not Quran :
Prayer has been referred to EXPLICITLY and STRONGLY more than ninety times in Quran . In each of these verses one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of these verses talk about the details of prayer, like how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, etc. Certainly with such a vast and strong reference from Quran , Muslims will refer to the Prophet to know the details. In comparison, the total number of the verses that Shia refers to for Imaamat is no more than 5 or 6 and yet non of them can be interpreted by a non-biased mind in the way that 12ers interpret it. In fact none of them are explicit and strong enough to prove Imaamat doctrine. This is while Prayer is not at all comparable with Imaamat. Imaamat is the fundamental of belief. Shia calls it one of the Osoole Din (Fundamental of religion). Prayer however according to Shia is one of the Foroo'e Din (Subsidiary) Imamat is important enough to convince Shia to separate themselves from the mainstream Islam. If the only difference between Shia and the Mainstream Islam was the way they perform prayer they would never become a sect out of the mainstream Islam.

There are certain verses but you need to look at Hadeeth to understand their true meaning cause we are advised to learn Quran from the Prophet and Hadeeth is his teachings.
Why only when it comes to Imaamat, we need Hadeeth to help us? We don't need a Hadeeth to understand from Quran that reading prayer, performing Hajj, fasting, Jihad etc. are obligatory upon Muslims. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that a Muslim needs to believe in Oneness of God and his Prophets and the Hereafter. We don't need Hadeeth to understand from Quran that God has angels, there were Prophets in the history of mankind and some of them had books, and that the destiny of man is in the hands of God. All of the sudden when it comes to Imaamat, Hadeeth becomes a vital tool to understand Quran . Quran how ever does not need a tool to be understandable. It is written in Quran that this book has been made easy to get guidance from. It is true that the Prophet explains certain verses of Quran but explaining is different from interpreting. Explaining means giving the details. Interpreting means giving the meaning. Quran needs no tool to be meaningful otherwise it wasn't the book of guidance. Also there are many contradictory Hadeeth in explaining verses of Quran and at the end of the day it is impossible to verify exactly which ones are authentic. How could God expect people of our time to use Hadeeth to understand the MEANING of Quran? Is this the way that God says in Quran that Truth and False are separated and clear evidences have been shown? I don't think so.

Long and complicated analysis of certain verses of Quran to prove that even without the help of Hadeeth, they are proving Imaamat.
Same argument goes here. Quran is not a book of riddles and puzzles. God does not expect an ordinary Muslim to have a search in Quran and have a professional analysis of the verses of Quran to understand what should be his belief and what are his duties as a Muslim. Of course it is very beneficial to analyse the verses of Quran to understand more from it. Quran is like an ocean. However to say that our fundamental belief can only derived from Quran after such an analysis is in contradiction with the use of Quran as a book of guidance. (For a detailed review of the verses that 12ers usually use and the discussion of the way they attempt to misinterpret these verses please refer to my other article: "The Quran refutes the Shiite concept of Imamate." and this article also The Qur'ân and The Imamah

There are no mention of the name of our Prophet in Bible but still Christians need to believe in the Prophet
I appreciate that this justification is very out of line but because I have heard it, I am going to address it here: Firstly we believe that Bible in fact gave the information about our Prophet but these verses were removed (Quran tells us). However the most important thing is that Christians are not expected to accept the Prophet only based on their Bible. Christians along with other human being are given a brand new guidance that is Quran. It is Quran that challenges Christians not merely their own book. The last point is that the comparison is illogical. We are asking for proof of the Shia doctrine from our book of guidance, what does it have to do with the proof of our Prophet in the Bible?! There are many belief that Christians have but are not in their Bible, we however as Muslims have to disregard any belief that is not supported by Quran. On the other hand, another misunderstanding here is that we are not asking about the name of a particular Imaam. We are asking about the CONCEPT of Imaamat. The concept of prophethood is well established in Bible (both old and new testaments). It is only after the establishment of this concept in the Christian holy book that they are expected to believe in ANOTHER prophet that is Muhammad (PBUH). The CONCEPT of Imaam (in the way that 12er Shia put it) however has not even referred to (in a convincing way) in Bible, let alone being established. Therefore from this respect too, the comparison is illogical.

The verses of Quran are usually general and it is not the style of Quran to name people (i.e. Imaams)
No body asked for names. Only some general verses that give us the above doctrine. Something as simple as: "Oh Muslims, be aware that there will be certain Imaams for you after the Prophet from his generation who are appointed by God and you need to follow them". It is as if (God Forbidden) God was worried about talking about Imaamat explicitly. Having said that, we have the name of Zaid (Ra) in Quran who was a SAHÂBAH and his name is there to refer to a very minor issue. It is not unfair to ask for a single verse with the name of Ali in it if (according to Shia) he had such an important role (Imaam).

Quran says "follow the Prophet". There are Hadeeth from the Prophet that prove the doctrine of Imaamat and this should be enough for a Muslim if he wants to follow the Prophet.
Again why is that only for this article of faith we need to consult Hadeeth? Let's test something. Take Quran in your hand and open it by chance. I can guarantee that no matter where it is opened, few verses before or after are about one of the Oneness of God, Prophet hood, Day of Judgement, Destiny of Human Being, or Duties of Muslims. Now how far you need to go in order to find a verse that (with the help of certain Hadeeth) could be interpreted as Imaamat in the 12er doctrine? How come for our other fundamental believes Quran is quite direct, even for our main duties as Muslims but when it comes to Imaamat, we need to refer to Hadeeth? This is inconsistency and God is far greater than having inconsistency in his perfect book. Hadeeth is not the second volume of Quran. Authentic Hadeeth is explanation of Quran not a secondith to see what is our religion? This is even more difficult when bare in mind that for every Hadeeth that Shia use to prove Imaamat, there are other Hadeeth that are in contradiction with it. In fact even Hadeeth (as a whole) are not structured in a way that could prove Imaamat. Such a justification is in fact the main reason for having different sects in Islam. Zaidis too have their own Hadeeth, same for Ismailis and same for Bahayees. All have the same problem, they are trying to understand their religion from the sources other than Quran. Please note that I am not denying the importance of Hadeeth (I am not a Quranist). However believing that certain parts of our fundamental belief has to be derived from Hadeeth rather than Quran is far different from using Hadeeth as a source to Prophet's Sunnah. There are no use of discussing the ahaadeeth of the prophet with 12ers when it comes to the fundamental issues. To all Muslims except those who have made sects the fundamentals of belief need to be derived from Quran, if they are not then either they are wrong or they are not fundamental and thus not acceptable reasons for forming a specific sect to be separated from the rest of the Muslims.

There are not explicit verses because if they were, Quran was in danger of fabrication.
This is actually guessing God's intentions and is very close to Kufr. From where one could come to this conclusion? Is there any verse in Quran that says God has not revealed certain things because if he does, you will change Quran? In fact the verses of Quran are supportive to the opinion that nothing has been left out for us from Quran and that God keeps Quran safe and that the Prophet should not be worried about delivering the verses. This is in fact attributing Taqqiyyah to God himself (God forbid).

Finally among the classic scholars of Shia at the old times there were some of them who hold that Quran is changed by Sahabah and that certain verses are removed from it.
In fact this is the most logical reply that one can get. However no Shia scholar these days refer to this response. They have changed their minds about this opinion (although among them there are still some individuals that do not deny the possibility). However every one knows that this is opposed to the verse of Quran where God promises to keep the book. Also if this is the case then how we know that there weren't some verses in Quran in support of (say) Baha'ollah or (say) George w. Bush? By this assumption no basis will remain to hold any opinion as a Muslim. On the other hand, God could reveal as much as needed about Imaamat (like 98 verses about prayer). Just imagine how difficult would it be if some one wanted to remove all the verses about prayer from Quran, God could do the same for Imaamat.

Where in Quran it is said that Muslims should choose a khalifah by themselves?
Firstly it is not appropriate to answer a question with a question. Shia needs to adjust their doctrine with Quran and only after that it is appropriate to ask such a question.

Nevertheless this question only shows the misunderstanding of some brothers about the belief of the mainstream Muslims. Believing in Khulafaaye Raashedin is not a fundamental element of Islam. According to the main stream Muslims, there are only 6 Articles of Faith and 5 pillars of Islam and believing in khilaafath of Aboobakr is not part of either of them.

Any groups of people tend to elect some one as their leader. And the rational and most reasonable way to do so is by election. This is a routine social/political practice. Certainly no system of public election was established at that time and the election of Aboobakr was done through negotiation of present people. You might think that it was not a good choice or that not all qualified people were presented at the time, that's your opinion but it has nothing to do with looking for evidences in Quran about it. It's just a routine social practice that was and is and will be done in any society and no logical mind would expect a divine evidence for that.

Having said that, once the SAHÂBAH of the holy prophet agree on a great SAHÂBAH like Aboobakr (RA) to become the Khalifah, then it is the duty of all Muslims to obey him for the sake of Islam and unity.

If a Shia asks me what is my proof about this, I will give him/her a source that Shia holds as a very strong proof:

Nahjolbalaqah, letter No. 6 of Imaam Ali to Mo'aviah (note that in some versions of Nahjul balagha. This letter is few numbers before or after): "People who did Bayat to Aboobakr and Omar, did bayat with me in the same way. So the one who is present cannot select any one else for Khalifah and the one who is absent cannot disobey people in their selection. Shurah belongs to Mohajer and Ansar, so if they gather around a person and appoint him as their Imaam this is to the satisfaction of Allah. If any one disapprove them on this or innovate something about it he should be taken back to the people who he has left (by accepting the appointed Khalifah), and if he refused to do so people has to fight with him as he is going to a path other than of Muslims."
(Note that in the Shia websites like al-islam.org, certain words have been inserted in the translation -like the word "suppose" - without putting them in the brackets in an attempt to change the meaning of the text.)

Now it's up to the Shia brothers and sisters whether they want to attribute Taqyah or lie or politics or what ever to their Imam and whether they like to justify his comment in the same way that they justify verses of Quran.
(also please bear in your mind that we have an explicit verse in Quran that says "va amrohom shoora baynahom", (and their affairs are done by consultancy between them). Surely the question of leadership is one of the affairs of Muslims. However I won't use this verse to prove anything about Khilaafath in Islam. Unlike the Shia brothers and sisters, I am quite cautious about playing Lego with the verses of Quran)

So let us not compare apple with orange. Imaamat doctrine is a fundamental belief of Shia, election or selection of Khulafaaye Raashedin is just a routine and common socio-political practice.

On the other hand, let's look at the present situation is Iran. Is there any divine command about how to establish a leadership in the occultation of Mahdi? Let's remember that there were no religious system of governing after the occultation of Mahdi for about 1000 years after the recent revolution of Iran and emerging of the theory of Welayate Faqih. Those who know about Shia and Iran appreciate that Welayate Faqih of Khomeini was only a theory that he derived from some ahaadeeth. Not all Shia scholars agree with that (like Khoiee and his followers). Among the classic Shia scholars only few had referred to this theory and most like Sheikh Ansari had the opinion that it is difficult to derive such a theory from ahaadeeth (refer to Makaseb of Sheikh Ansari). Also among those recent scholars who accept the theory there are un-agreements about the extend of the theory and that how it could be put in practice (Like Montazeri, late Shirazi, etc.). So again as I referred to in the article, Shia too ended up with the same situation as the mainstream Muslims that is to elect a leader by themselves in the absence of any direct divine command.

Show us the names of the prophets between ... and ... in Quran if you think that every thing should be in Quran
The Shia who sends this question cannot realise what is the main issue. The issue is not about NAMES. It is about a CONCEPT.. The concept of prophethood has been addressed in Quran in many verses and there are a few verses that tells Muslims that they need to believe in all the prophets. Allah has given use the story of the main prophets and have left the story of others. There is no need to know the NAME of the (as they say) 124,000 prophets in order to obey Allah. The question is about the concept of Imaamat not the names of Imaams. Quran has established the concept of prophethood and its function for us through many verses. There is however not a single verse in Quran that explicitly tells us that there is another position called Imaamat which refers to infallible God appointed individuals who are not prophets and that their existence are necessary and there will be such Imams after the prophet.

It is a test that's why it is not mentioned in Quran
This claim puts the function of Quran as a guidance under a serious doubt. By this claim there is no use to read Quran to get any guidance because who knows maybe there is a fundamental part of your belief that is not mentioned in Quran because God wants to test you! By the same token Bahayees claim that Quran talks about their prophet Baha'Ollah. When you ask them but where in Quran they will show you some verses that have nothing to do with their claim. When you say but these verses are not clear about your claim they say Oh because God is testing you, Nice!
This is again playing with divinity. Who are we to decide for God that what is a test and what is not a test? The prophethood of Muhammad (PBUH) was also a test but there are many verses in Quran that directly tells people that Muhammad (PBUH) is a prophet. A test is different from a puzzle. God says in Quran that he makes things clear for people. Even a teacher first makes it clear for his students that what is the material of exam and then designs a test based on those material. We need to read Quran to see what are the materials that God is going to ask us about in the day of judgement. Is 'believing in the doctrine of Imaamat' one of the materials that Quran commanded us about? God makes things clear for you and sends you enough evidences and then test you to see if you can be humble enough to obey his guidance. The claim that this sorts of answers are making is like we expect Quran to be empty of any verses about the day of judgement and then say that God wants to test people to see if they can GUESS or DEDUCT that there is a day of judgement. No way, God makes it clear in Quran that we need to believe in him and his prophet and to do good things and to pray etc. and the test is whether we obey these commands. God does not play game with us. He does not expect us to solve puzzles and riddles. I wonder why Shia cannot see this in another way around. Imaamat is not explicitly referred to in Quran but still Shia insists to be separate from the mainstream Muslims because of this doctrine. Aren't they under a test by Allah? Allah knows best.

Arguments that use few verses of Quran out of the context Here Shia tries to refer to few verses in which the words Imaam or Khalifa are used. It is interesting that most of the verses in this category are those that even Shia scholars do not use them to prove their doctrine cause Shia tafasir are clear about the commonly agreed meaning of these verses. There are however non-Scholar Shia youths, those who spend all their youth over internet debating with others that use these verses. To be more specific, these are the verses where the term Khalifa/Kholafa have been used or the verses that the term Imaam has been used in the meaning other than Leader. The Shia friends simply think any reference to Imaam or khalifa means what they think. The best way to answer them in this category is to refer them to their own tafasir like Almizan and Majmaolbayan. Also to remind him of the warning that Allah gives us in Quran about taking the verses out of their context (Arabic: Yoharrefonal Kalema An Mawaze'ehi)

Sunnies believe in Mahdi while he is not mentioned in Quran:
Firstly the concept of Mahdi for the mainstream Muslims is totally different from the concept that Shia holds for Mahdi. This is another issue discussing of which will extend the length of the article. The Shia who brings this justification has confused his own understanding of the concept of Mahdi with the mainstream's understanding of the concept. However the more important thing is that we cannot compare the belief of the mainstream Muslims about Mahdi with the belief of Imaamat in Shia. Imaamat is one of the main articles of faith for Shia but belief in Mahdi is not one of the main articles of belief of the mainstream Muslims. The articles of belief of the mainstream Muslims have been listed by the scholars and Alhamdolellah all of them are based on explicit verses of Quran. These are 6 (or 7 depending on the phrasing) articles of belief: Belief in God and his Oneness - Belief in Angels - Belief in God's books (Bible, Quran, etc.) - Belief in God's messengers = Believe in the day of resurrection= Believe in Qadar (i.e. every thing and event has been written). All of these are derived form explicit verses of Quran. The very reason that we cannot see THE BELIEF IN MAHDI being listed among the articles of belief of the mainstream Muslims is that this has not been commanded and explained and established in Quran in the same way that other articles of belief are established in Quran.

Imaamat is not the fundamental belief of 12ers, the appointment of Ali is the fundamental of belief.
If one cannot appreciate (in line with the conscious of all the scholars of Shia) that Ali being appointed by the prophet is the direct consequence of the concept of Imaamat and that Imaamat is the core belief of 12er Shia that's fine. I would ask the same question about Ali. The question is a generic one that can be applied to any fundamental of belief:
Where are explicit verses of Quran without any Tafsir or Hadeeth that clearly command us about what ever is the fundamental of 12ers' belief that distinguishes them from the mainstream Muslims, being Imaamat or the Khilaafat of Ali after the holy prophet. There is no escape from this question as long as one believes that Quran is the ultimate guidance. And if a Muslim is not able to find this in Quran then by God he/she needs to answer God in the day of judgement that why he/she separate him/herself from the mainstream Muslims.

So as you see, none of the above responses are really answering the question. These responses are actually escaping from the truth. Give Quran (a translation) to an English man with no idea about Islam and ask him to read it and write down 5 important articles of Islamic belief based on his understanding from Quran. I can imagine that he will write down oneness of God, Prophet-hood, the Day of Judgment, perhaps the rewards and punishments, prayer, Zakat, ... but is there any chance that he writes the doctrine of Imaamat as 12ers put it? I don't think so.

The very reason that Shia needs to include lots of explanation and commentaries and Hadeeth to prove his doctrine from verses of Quran proves that Quran is not explicit and direct about Imaamat and when a book of guidance is not explicit and direct about some thing, that "thing" CANNOT be a fundamental of guidance and people who have chosen to be separated from the mainstream Muslims because of that "thing" are responsible for their sectarianism attitude.

The above is the weakest link of 12er Shia and repeating it over and over is the only ways that we could make some of them realize this weakness. Interestingly enough further discussion with Shia about this issue only results in completing this argument by adding more justifications from Shia side to the above. The more the number of justifications the more apparent the gap and the false in the logic of Shia theory of Imaamat. Verily as Quran says (25:30), THE complain of the Prophet about his people in the Day of Judgment is that they put Quran aside and ignored it. While I think that we are all subject to this complain and we all need to re-establish the role of Quran in our belief, I should say that to me 12er Shia are one of the best examples of such complain.

Question Two: How does the current Imaam leads Shia?

The first question should be enough for any one to consider 12er Shia as a group that is biased from the original Islam. However it is helpful to have a word about the concept of occultation of Mahdi.

When you ask a Shia that why we need an infallible Imaam, he says we need it because it is not justice from God to leave us without any divine leadership. When you say okay then where is this divine leader now, the Shia will say: Oh he has been hidden for more than 1000 years and will come out near the end of the world. Nice!

This means that the theory of Justice of God in terms of guidance worked only for about 300 years (before the occultation)!

Imaam means a leader, how can you be led when the leader is not contactable and accessible? It is a conscious of Shia that no one has direct contact with Mahdi during his greater occultation (they believe he had about 70 years smaller occultation during which direct contact was possible). So what is the point of all this debate?

Shia believes in Imaamat and accused others for not having a leadership system, well at the end of the day we all ended up at the same point didn't we? Shia had no leadership system up to the Iranian revolution and the system of Welayate Faqih that is the leadership system in the current Iran is nothing but a man made system in which people elect certain scholars to elect a leader for them. Well this is exactly what happened in Saqufeye Bani Saedeh when people elected Hazrat Abu Bakr, so, what is all the fuss about? Some of the Muslims have elected Osamah Ben Laden to be their leader, does Khameneyee the leader of Shia has any divine advantages to Osamah?

The point is that if Shia had a live Imaam who was supposedly infallible and had access to extra ordinary knowledge than we did not need this much waste of time. Instead of all these debates I would have asked a Shia to take me to his infallible Imaam and there surely the Imaam could prove me his right by his extra ordinary knowledge and attitude. This is not the case now. If some one becomes a Shia these days, nothing will be changed for him in terms of guidance. He/she will combine the prayers and attend ceremonies for Hussain and pay Khums to scholars and rub his feet in ablution and start a debate over Internet by a user name like Ex-Sunni but nothing in terms of being directed by a divine Imam. So what? Shia says it is obligatory to know the Imaam of your time, but from the so-called Imaam of their time what do they know? Anything more than his name and the fact that he will not come out till near the end of the world? So is it all about knowing a name rather than actual guidance?

We are fighting over a closed file (I hold respect and do not say over a ... body).

The occultation of Imaam is in 100% in variance with the very basis of the reason Shia claims we need an Imaam. The Shia belief is in fact not self consistent.

Honestly I have not received any considerable reply for this question to elaborate on, let me only address two semi-replies:

The guidance of Imaam is not restricted to direct guidance. There are other functions of Imaamat that we cannot fully understand except that his existence is a must for universe.

Imaam's benefit in occultation is like the benefit if sun when it's behind the cloud.

I answer them in the same order:

The guidance of Imaam is not restricted to direct guidance. There are other functions of Imaamat that we cannot fully understand except that his existence is a must for universe.

This is just a philosophical argument (being affected by pre-Islamic belief) that has absolutely no support from Quran and Hadeeth. We have been told that certain angels are arranging certain things for the universe but we have heard nothing about such an extra ordinary claim. If this is the case then who was the Imaam immediately before the Prophet? Did the Prophet ever meet him?! And why we need some one being alive in the earth to do the job? Imaam Reza the 8th Imaam of Shia said to people (who thought his father is not dead but is alive and in occultation) a very interesting point: "if Allah wanted to extend the life of any of his servants for the need of people to him, he would have extended the life of his Prophet" (Kashshi -a Shia author- Marefatorrejal P. 379).

Furthermore by the above reply in fact the 12ers are stepping down and surrender their main argument that says in every time there is a need for an Imaam to direct and lead people (i.e. tangible direction and leading not philosophical direction). In fact the earlier 12er scholars nearer to the beginning of the time that the 12ers refer to as the greater occultation of Mahdi has used the same argument to prove the existence of Mahdi. They even go as far to say that this 'obvious' argument suffices them from referring to any ahaadeeth to prove the existence of Mahdi.

Let's see what is the argument of one of the classic gurus of 12ers:

"... Rationality tells us that surely there should be an infallible leader at every time who is not relying on people in matters and science -of religion- because it is impossible that people live in a time when there are no leaders to bring them closer to good and farther from bad and every non-complete human needs some one to advise him and every oppressor needs some one to control him ... and there should be some one who teaches those who don't know and waken up ignorant, advise misguided and perform the Hodood (Punishments of Shariat) ... and solve the differences of opinion and appoint governors and defend the borders and protect properties ... and gather people for Eids and collective prayers. (Ershad by Mofid - Section 36).

As it can be seen, this scholar who was one of the ones who established 12er doctrine clearly says that there always need to an infallible Imaam at all times who could practically (and in a tangible way) direct and guide people (look at the bold words). It seems that to people like Mofid who was quite close to the beginning of what 12ersa refer to as the greater occultation of Mahdi. The expectation was that the occultation will not last for a long period and Mahdi will appear shortly otherwise all the above argument (knowing that Mahdi is not accessible) had no points.

The above is the understanding of other classic 12er scholars as well but I preferred to quote from one of the main ones that is considered as one of the pillars of the 12er scholars.

As you see, the Mahdi that is the subject of our debate with 12ers is the one that the classic 12er Shia believed in as some one who practically and in a tangible way leads people. If an Imaam could be hidden and not available to people then what is the point of arguing for the necessity of having a God appointed leader at the first place?

To change the function of Mahdi to be able to justify his long occultation is nothing but changing the whole story to be able to escape from the truth. It is exactly like changing the function of Quran (from the book of guidance to a book that is only completed by Hadeeth and needs the explanation of 12er Imams) to be able to justify why the 12er theory of Imaamat is not mentioned in Quran.

Imaam's benefit in occultation is like the benefit if sun when it's behind the cloud.
This is nothing but a poetic justification of the problem. What is exactly meant by sun behind clouds? Even sun behind the clouds has many benefits. You can still find your way when the sun is behind the cloud. However is there any clue from Mahdi now days to direct the Shia in Iran in any way? There are lots of controversy issues in Iran these days among the scholars in terms of Islam and modernism, the extend of the power of Walye Faqih (the leader), etc. There are certain Shia scholars (Mojtaheds) that are in home arrest because they are not agree with the current policies and leader. Was there any letters, voices, what ever from Mahdi to clear up a bit of these difficulties? Which one of these Mojtaheds who are in sever disagreement with each other are directed and led by Mahdi and how are the 12er people suppose to realise that?
There is a difference between a fairy tale and reality and I hope some Shia could realize it.

To conclude, I think by refraining from entering never ending debates about minor issues and sticking to the major issue both Shia and mainstream Muslims will be able to come to conclusions faster. I tried to explain in my article that the main issue in debate with 12er Shia is their doctrine of Imaamat.

I further described that the best never answered question for Shia is to ask them for prove for their doctrine from Quran (simply by pasting the verse with no commentary) and to ask them about the practicability of their doctrine in the absent of an accessible Imaam. These remain as two severe problems with Shia belief and no answer could be given for them unless new verses of Quran come down and their so called Imaam of Time come out of his occultation. As I don't think that any of these would happen I had no problems in posting this here knowing that Shia brothers and sisters will also read it. There are no hidden plans. These are facts.

And Allah knows best.

May Allah Guide Us All and forgive our sins.
Student

AMERISLAM

oh..well I red something too...sorry if it's too long!!

MISC. Information on Imam Mehdi (AS)
In a tradition upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree, the Holy Prophet has said:

"Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been
exhausted and only one day is left before Doomsday (Day of judgment),
Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate
the kingdom of a person out of my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my
name. He will then fill out the earth with peace and justice as it
will have been full of injustice and tyranny before then."

Sunni Reference: Sahih Tirmidhi, V2, P86, V9, P74-75 (There are many more.)

The context of the above precious tradition informs the golden divine promises will take place, sooner or later, one way or another, as mentioned in most of the Shi'ite and Sunnit sources.

In a tradition the Holy Prophet said to the Commander of believers, Ali, that:

"There will be twelve Guides (Imams) after me, the first of whom is
you, O' Ali, and the last one will be the 'Support' (al-Qa'im), who
with the grace of Allah, will gain victory over the whole east and
west of the world."

The occultation of the twelfth Imam is divided into two parts: the first, the minor occultation (ghaybat al-Sughra) which began in 259/873 and ended in 329/939, lasting about seventy year. On that period, people were in contact with him through four special deputies. That period served as preparing people for the absence of Imam. The second, the major occultation which commenced in 329/939 and will continue as long as God wills it. There is no special deputy in direct contact with him in this period, and Muslim scholars are regular deputies of him at this time without having ability to see him.

Imam Mahdi (AS) said:

"Rest assured that no one has a special relationship with Allah.
Whoever denies me is not from my (community). The appearance of the
Relief (al- Faraj) depends solely upon Allah. Therefore those who
propose a certain time for it are liars. As to the benefit of my
existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the
clouds where the eyes do not see it. Indeed, my existence is an
amnesty for inhabitants of the earth. Pray much to Allah to hasten the
Relief, for therein also lies the release from your sufferings."

Click Here to Go BAck To The Index.

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Sunni Documantation on Imam Mahdi (AS)
For our respected Sunni brothers, there are six authentic collections of traditions based on the Sunni standards for verifying the authenticity of a tradition. These six books are: Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Ibn Majah, Sunan Abu Dawud, and Sahih al-Nisa'i. I just quote few traditions from these six books to prove that a knowledgeable Sunni brother/sister can NOT deny that:

1. Mahdi is going to come in the last days to make a universal Government,
2. Mahdi is from the Ahlul-Bayt of Prophet,
3. Mahdi is from the children of Fatimah (AS), the daughter of Prophet,
4. Mahdi is different than Jesus (the messiah),
5. Jesus will be one of the followers of Imam Mahdi and prays behind him.

The following are only some of the traditions out of many, about Imam Mahdi, and are ALL traditions that the Sunnis admit to their authenticity and existence:

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's
existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left before
Doomsday (Day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a
length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person out of my
Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will then fill out the
earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice
and tyranny before then."

Sunni References:

1. Sahih Tirmidhi, V2, P86, V9, PP 74-75
2. Sanan Abi Dawud, V2, P7
3. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V1, P376 & V3, P63
4. Mustadrak al-Sahihain, by al-Hakim, V4, P557
5. Al-Majma', by Tabarani, P217
6. Tahdhib al-Thabit, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V9, P144
7. Sawaiq al-Muhraqa, Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, P167
8. Fathul Bari, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, V7, P305
9. al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, P617
10. al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, V2, pp165-166
11. Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, V5, P348
12. Fathul Mughith, by al-Sakhawi, V3, P41
13. al-Hafidh Abul-Hasan Muhammad Ibn al-Husayn al-Sijistani al-Aburi
14. al-Shafi'i (d. 363/974). (who said the above hadith is related by
numerous authorities and were spread far and wide by many narrators).
and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

Also:

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "Al-Mahdi is one of us, the members of the
household (Ahlul-Bayt)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4085

As we see Imam Mahdi is from the Ahlul Bayt of Prophet Muhammad, so he can not be Jesus (the Messiah; al-Maseeh). Mahdi and Messiah are two different personalities but they come at the same time, Mahdi as Imam and Jesus as his follower. The following tradition clearly mentions that Imam Mahdi is one of the children of the daughter of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF):

The Messenger of Allah said: "Al-Mahdi is one of the children of
Fatimah (the Prophet's daughter)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4086

Also:

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "We the children of Abd Al-Mutalib are the
Masters of the inhabitants of Heaven: Myself, Hamza (RA), Ali (AS),
Jafar (RA), Hasan (AS), Hussain (AS), and Al-Mahdi (AS)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4087

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "The Mahdi will appear in my Ummah. He will
appear for a minimum of 7 or a maximum of 9 years; in that time, my
Ummah will experience a bountiful favor like never before. It shall
have a great abundance of food, of which it need not save anything,
and the wealth at that time is in great quantities, such that if a
man asks the Mahdi to give him some, and the Mahdi (AS) will say:
Here! Take!"

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #5083

Remark: According to Shi'i sources, the Government of Peace and equality that Imam Mahdi will establish will last hundreds of years with no rival, and then the day of Judgment will be set. What is mentioned in the above tradition as 7 or 9 years is related to the length of time that Imam Mahdi will fight to conquer the world when he starts his mission.

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "We (I and my family) are members of a
household that Allah (SWT) has chosen for them the life of the
Hereafter over the life of this world; and the members of my household
(Ahlul-Bayt) shall suffer a great affliction and they shall be
forcefully expelled from their homes after my death; then there will
come people from the East carrying black flags, and they will ask for
some good to be given to them, but they shall be refused service; as
such, they will wage war and emerge victorious, and will be offered
that which they desired in the first place, but they will refuse to
accept it, until a man from my family (Ahlul-Bayt) appears to fill the
Earth with justice as it has been filled with corruption. So whoever
reachs that (time) aught to come to them even if crowling on the
ice/snow."

Sunni ref: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, Tradition #4082, also in the History Tabari

The Messenger of Allah said: "The world will not perish until a man
among the Arabs appears whose name matches my name."

Sunni reference: Sahih Tirmidhi, V9, P74

Also:

The Messenger of Allah said: "Mahdi from my family will bring about
a revolution and will fill the world with justice and equity before
which it was filled up with injustuce and inequity."

Sunni references:

1. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, V1, P84
2. Jami'us Sagheer, by al-Suyuti, PP 2,160
3. al-Urful Vardi, by al-Suyuti, P2
4. Kanzul Ummal, V7 P186
5. Aqd al-Durar Fi Akhbaar al-Mahdi al-Muntazir, V12, Chapter 1,
6. al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji Shafi'i, Chapter 12
7. al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh Maliki, Chapter 12
8. Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi hanafi, P380
9. Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, P266

Also Ahmad Ibn Hanbal narrated that:

The Prophet (PBUH) said: "Allah will bring out from concealment Mahdi
from my Family and Progeny before the Day of Judgement, even if only
one day were to remain in the life of the world, and he will spread on
this earth justice, and equity and eradicate tyranny and opression."

1. Sunni reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p99

Ibn Majah in his Sunan quotes Mohammad Ibn Hanafiyyah and Imam Ali saying that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) said:

"Mahdi is from our Ahlul-Bayt, no doubt Allah will enforce his Amr
(appearance) within a night (i.e., his coming is very unpredicted)."

Sunni reference: Sunan Ibn Majah, V2, P269

The more recent fatwa in this issue is given in Mecca by the Muslim World League (Rabitatul `Alamul Islami) on Oct. 11, 1976 (23 Shawwal 1396). This fatwa states that more than twenty companions narrated traditions concerning al-Mahdi, and gives a list of those scholars of Hadith who have transmitted these narrations, and those who have written books on al-Mahdi. The fatwa states:

"The memorizers (Hafiz) and scholars of Hadith have verified that
there are authentic (sahih) and acceptable (hasan) reports among the
traditions related to al-Mahdi. The majority of these traditions are
related through numerous authorities (Mutawatir). There is no doubt
that the status of those reports are Sahih and Mutawatir. (They have
also verified) that the belief in Mahdi is obligatory, and that it is
one of the beliefs of Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jama'a. Only those ignorant of
the Sunnah and innovators in doctrine deny it.

For the transcription and reproduction of this fatwa, see, among others, the Introduction of al-Ganji al-Shafi'i, in the book named "al-Bayan," Beitut, 1399/1979, PP 76-79 and in Appendix.

Among Shi'ite scholars, I would like to mention the masterpiece of Lutifullah Al-Safi al-Golpaygani, who compiled an encyclopedia called "Muntakhab al-Athar". In this book, there is a comprehensive narration of the traditions relating to the appearance of the Mahdi (AS). He has used over 60 Sunni sources, including their Six Authentic Books of Tradition; and over 90 Shi'ite sources to illuminate the fact that Al-Mahdi is NOT a fabricated event.

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "He who dies not knowing the Imam of his era, has died the death of Al-Jahiliyya (Days of Ignorance; the era before Islam)."

Well said Tod, nicely draughted up, well said.I'm adding a hotch potch of my own thoughts on the matter, let me know what you think.

Brothers and sisters in Islam,

Assalaam un alaykum.

Dear Amer,

Thank you very much for a seemingly well informed article.

However, it seems incredibly ironic that this veritable ESSAY assumes that it is mainly Shias who are in the habit of systematically pasting articles from other web sites, when the actual evidence of this goes against YOURSELF as a ‘mainstream muslim’ for having done the same.

Whilst being unable to address it in full due to limitations on time I WOULD like to make one or two comments.

The clear crux of 'STUDENT'S' article seems to want to contest the 'doctrine' of Imamate, for which the Shi'a 12ers have established, at the scholarly level.

In elaborately explaining his point he has been unable to conclude that the majority of Shia's are outside the fold of Islam per se, although they most certainly are not in line with the mainstream.

For the latter point this can hardly seem problematic in view of the strong historical evidence whereby The Shia Imams themselves had clearly gone against the mainstream political trends of their own times.

Once again we only have to look at the refusal of The 1st Shia Imam Ali to accept the Khilafat of Abu Bakr, (for however long that may have been) in accordance with the authenticated refferences pertaining to Al Bukhari, and of the incident of Karbala, whereby Imam Hussain clearly was seen to reject THE MAINSTREAM caliph Yazid.

In the ‘letter no.6’ of Nhjul Balagha that is reffered to, Imam Ali speaks on the basis of what Muawiah had already constituted as his own view. And that is clear to note considering the conclusive evidences as stated above.

LOWDOWN ON SHIA DOCTRINES

Roots of Religion
1. Tawheed-Oness of God
2. Adl-Justice of God
3. Nabuwwat-Prophethood
4. Imaamat-Belief in all twelve Imams
5. Qiyaamat-belief in the Judgement day

Branches of Religion
1. Salat-daily prayer
2. Sawm-fasting
3. Hajj-pilgramage
4. Zakat-yearly tax
5. Khums-1/5th annual savings, to give to Imam or representative
6. Jihad-Holy War
7. Amr bil Ma’roof-enjoining the good
8. Nahi-Anil-Munkar-forbidding the bad
9. Tawalla-Love toward lovers of Mohammed
10. Tabarra-Hate toward enemies of Mohammed

If DOCTRINATION is the main gripe here then we should consider the negative effects of it’s consequence, rather than criticise it for the mere sake of argument.

Shahadah, Salah, Sawm , Hajj, Zakat, are generally considered to be the obligatory pillars of The Faith.

Further to this ‘Basic Beliefs of Islam’ in accordance with the mainstream view are 1. Tawhid 2.Angels of Allah 3.Books of Allah 4.Messengers of Allah 5.The day of Judgement 6.Predestination or supremacy of Divine will 7. Life after death.

The Shias are accused of ‘adding’ to The Five Pillars via the points that have been set for the belief in ‘the roots and the branches of faith’ (and to be honest with you, a tree seems a lot more natural than a group of pillars) but here (above) we have a classic example of how DOCTRINATION occurs within the historical context of the mainstream populace on the surface level.

What. Aren’t the five pillars enough?

Imaamat IS in the Quran. Every time it mentions ‘Ulil Amr’, ‘those who are vested with authority amongst you’, it is NOT Abu Bakr that is being refered to.

Aside from the SOLID evidence of a Prophet KHIZR which exists within the Quran (although he is not mentioned by name) there is nothing more that you could hope to know about him unless you refer to Hadith. This you will HAVE to do, if you CARE about the historical lives of the prophets at all.

It is only known through POPULAR Hadith literature that we know this prophet is STILL ALIVE, living upon the earth.

WHY then have we left behind the memory of this living miracle on earth. All this talk about Prophethood, about THE LAST PROPHET who was after all meant to guide us, and no mention, not even a pindrop, for one that’s still around in the physical sense?

I suggest that the Sunnis should try and get to meet him. There must be a way. Many Muslims must be used to meeting Shaytan, some on a regular basis. He IS made of FIRE but I’m quite certain that some of them have even had the opportunity of shaking his hand.

It to see you now defend the 'doctrinal' belief in The Devil(as he is CLEARLY mentioned in the Quran also) of whom at least one of your mainstream Caliphs will have had good relations with.

Well what I mean is Yazid WAS mainstream no matter how hard you try and run away from it.

The simple point I’m trying to make is that the concept of a 12th Infallible descendent of Mohammed is not so hard to believe when you are aware that Satan is here alive on earth, in the physical form of fire, influencing everything and everyone around him. The physical form of Jesus is alive in heaven also and will return to earth as both Christians AND Muslims are certain of it. So what then is the point of Mohammed when he has passed away, and all these other Prophet’s and beings are still around?

The Authentic Sunni hadith references that ‘student’ wants to run away from DO talk about 12 rightly guided Caliphs descending from Mohammed after him, ALL being from The Quraysh. Ask any of them who they are and they’ll be stuck for words, lest they of course decide to take the Shia view on the Matter.

So, we have to ask.

HOW AND WHY IN GOD’S NAME ARE YOU TRYING TO RUN AWAY FROM YOUR OWN HADITH LITERATURE?

NOWHWERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT STATE THAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO PRAY FIVE times a day.

Shall we prove to the Muslim Ummah therefore that their DOCTRINE of saying the five daily prayers is essentially flawed because there is no Quranic evidence?

I ask ‘student’ WHY are you protesting that your Sihah al Sittah is not authentically valid ???

You’ve turned your back on your 4 rightly guided Caliphs and now your turning your back on your hadith’s?

You can’t defend your system of Caliphate any more so you criticise our system of Imamat?

It was ESSENTIAL for the likes of Abu Bakr and Yazid, to get allegiance from Imam Ali and Imam Hussein.

What would they think of YOU now, members of their own Ummah are once again starting to reject the ‘doctrinal’ authority that they fought so hard for?

Although I am unable to even call myself a student of Islam, let alone a scholar there are some things that, no matter how many books you read, are unable to defy common sense.

For we must indeed wonder if it was on the assertion of DOCTRINE that the accomplished Sahabah Muawiah founded the legitimacy for contesting in battle The Imam Ali. ie Was it his belief in The Book of Allah, or in the Oness of Allah, or in The Divine will of Allah that lead him to assume he had the right to defend his so called Caliphate of the Syrian Kingdoms?

The reality is, that this GREAT ENEMY of the Imam didn’t have a leg to stand on, yet his pathetic assertion lead to the death of thousands upon thousands of Muslim lives.

Still, in accordance to the mainstream body of todays Muslim Ummah, centuries after all the mindless bloodshed, it is all dust under the carpet and it is the SHIA who are being blamed for secretarian rifts, on the basis of their belief in Imaamat!

I ask you – from the first to the twelfth of our leaders which one of them can you accuse of spilling innocent Muslim blood?

I mean what political DAMAGE has the belief in our system of Imaamat caused, in comparison to the damage that was caused through your own DOCTRINATED belief in this system of Khilaafat.

Websites like Haqq Chaar Yaar are popular proof and legacy for the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of Sunni Muslims had accepted in the past and STILL accept today the concept of the 4rightly guided Caliphs. Regardless of what you say about The Pillars and The Articles there was a damn sight more that was imposed upon The Muslims in a fashion that turned the whole scenario into a life and death issue.

Intially, I thought it was good Amer, when I heard you say you didn’t care about who comes after Mohammed 1,2,3 or 4, it meant we could say GOODBYE to the Khilafa system. But ‘STUDENT’ is trying to defend the system of an elective council at the same time as he’s saying khilaafat isn’t important; he still wants to put Abu bakr back on the pulpit, and this is something for which I am not at all happy about.

I must now depart for a cup of tea.

Wassalaam

PS

I’m not sure if you’ve read it but Micheal Williams isn’t in favour pasting vast amounts of other peoples information onto this part of his website. Personaly, I think your own comments are more interesting.

PPS

You cannot refer to Hadith to suit your own purposes (ie, timewasting) on the one hand and then refute the HUGE amount of information pertaining to the content of Islamic history on the other.

The issues refered to as MOST popularly debated by the shia, which were:

The story of Fadak

The story of Omar (RA) and Pen and Paper

The battles of Siffin, Jamal

The attitude of Moawiah against Ali (RA)

Karbala and the martyrdom of Hussain (RA)

The story of Ghadire Khom (this is more relevant than others but still far away from the main issue)

The debates about Tahrif of Quran

The debates about Bukhaaree and Muslim and their collections

The stories regarding our mother Ayeshah (RA)

The stories regarding Saqifah of Bani Saedeh

Combining the prayers, issues about Azan, ablution and so on

Things like visiting graves, calling a dead and so on...

should not have to be mentioned only in light of the fact that the rest of the Muslim Ummah should intentionally avoid them.

To my view that is ludicrousness, ignorance and utter stupidity.

It’s like saying, “ don’t argue on these points because your going to lose, you’ll become dry and materialistic and you may just end up converting to Shia”.

I AM SO GLAD THE SHIA HAVE ESTABLISHED THEIR BELIEF IN A TWELFTH IMAM WHO IS TO RETURN.

This is the weapon that conspirators are never going to get over from.

Guarantee. Amongst the Sunnis there will always be the likelihood of a false Imam Mehdi coming along to save the day – maybe he’ll even tell you that , sorry, Jesus couldn’t make it. You won’t even have a clue about who his dad is.

For us he is the one true Seyyed, son of the 11th Imam Hassan Al Askari.

And even if the Kuffar think it’s a whole load of baloney they will NEVER be able to shove anyone else in our face to take the bayt.

Bye bye bin Laden. Drop dead.

Wassalaam.

salam to all my sunni brothers and sisters..and hey to all my shia people online.... reading through this page honestly most people on hear are coruppted by demeaning sects in islam... honestly there is a couple of you on this web sight that is actually fall of heart and not much knowledge..but others in via versa...tell me which of these two would ALLAH swt be happy with...as for the statement up higher saying that sunni's believe the prophetSAW was a sinner and forgiven is not tru... i am sunni and i definitely believe that the prophetSAW is not a sinner during anytime in his glorious role on earth....to believe that is definitely a shirk of islam.... the reason he said Astagfirullah 70 or so odd times a day was because he had knowledge of the unseen and he knew that we would be sinners and remember allah SWT sent him as the perfect example of mankind so he had to do it for our sake... saying that he was a sinner is a clear sign of WAHABISM one of the worst colperates to the denomination of islam.... for all you who say "what is wahabism" Its a quite major sect of sunni muslim...but i with others agree should be on there own sect... they say the prophetSAW is dead and rotted in the grave, that he is mere dust and bones, and that it is alright to imagine your wife in salaat but if you think of the prophetSAW your salaat becomes haram....i cant stand this outrage... the prophet was not a sinner.... if he was then it deems allah wrong by saying he is the perfect of man.... doesnt perfection mean nothing incorrect everything correct...... and as for you who say abu bakrRA was a bad man and so on then clearly you dont have anylove for the prophets followers.... the man who was the first man to accept islam..... with out hesitation might i add.... plz do not speak loudly for sunniz when you say we think the prophet was a sinner and so on just because you do doesnt mean we do... you have your opinion and we have ours... allah seez all... also all this attack on "NAAZLA" was quite unecessary he was just retaliating to what a shiatte said... dont worry "NAAZLA" allah is by the side of those who has the heart and not those who have the knowlegde... my friendz your all fighting on here like YAZID in the final battle do youz all really want to sound like him.... and another thing sunniz where im from hate yazid so dont say that we agreed with wat he said...... allah hu akbar.... abu, umar, uthman, ali, muawiya where all promised heaven.... so why do youz hate them.... do you think allah will like the people who curse the people in his house..... i dont think so anywayz salam ........

Just for my wahbi foes...
how do you translate the Kalimah (shahada)?

"there is no God except ALLAH, and Muhammad (Peace Be upon Him) is the Prophet of ALLAH."

OR you say

"there is no God except ALLAH, and Muhammad (Peace Be upon Him) ...WAS... the Prophet of ALLAH."
(thinking that He(pbuh) was dead)

For us He( Peace Be upon Him)is still a Prophet and thats what we Muslims are witnesing for. That ment he did not become dust, dead or rotted in the grave.

He(pbuh) said that he was human like us but He(pbuh) did not say that we were like Him too. We will become dust in our graves but He(pbuh) will not. If you say "He WAS a prophet" in the kalima then our kalima will become null and void.

cheers

There was a reference of a latter #6 from Imam Ali to Mu'awiya given in one of the post which was incomplete here it is a ful text of the Letter # 6.

[ The following is a letter to Mu'awiya and in it Imam Ali (a) has used the same principle that he applied on Talha and Zubayr. Imam Ali (a) in this letter has raised all the points which were once quoted against him. He says if an election on the basis of general franchise is the criterion to decide such a caliphate, then general election took place to elect him the Caliph and nobody can deny this fact, and if limited franchise (Shura) was the criterion then those who represented this group (Muhajirs and Ansars) were amongst those who elected him and therefore even according to the rules formulated by opponents of Imam Ali (a) his election was lawful, regular and bonafide. Thus no Muslim has a right to speak or act against him. ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

O Mu'awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-aggrandizement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like.

cheers

OMG...look at this lion of God!!

A letter to Mu'awiya by Imam Ali (as)

-------------------------------------------------

Have you ever seriously considered what would happen to you if all your wealth and property is taken away from you. The possessions, the riches and the luxuries that you have surrounded yourself with, belong to this world, a world which has profusely decorated itself and which is bent upon alluring you with its enjoyments. It has enticed you away and you have fallen an easy prey to its allurements. It has dragged you and you have followed it like a tame animal on the other end of the rope. It has ordered you and you have obeyed its orders submissively.

You have forgotten that shortly you will be called to bear the consequences of such a life; consequences from which no one can shield, liberate or absolve you.

Abstain from such a life, keep yourself ready for the Day of Judgement; be ready for death which is inevitable, bound to come and sure to end every life, rich or poor. Do not listen to the exciting whispers of those who want to tempt you and do not make them believe that they and their heinous whisperings have any importance in your mind.

If you do not faithfully and sincerely follow the dictates of religion and do not act as I have advised you, then I want to warn you of something that you have entirely forgotten. It is that you are unthankful to Allah for all which He has granted to you and you are ungrateful to Him for the Favours bestowed upon you. Satan has taken possession of your soul. Its desire to secure you as his obedient slave, is fully fulfilled. It has a firm hold on your mind.

O Mu'awiya! Were you ever entrusted with the noble status of dispensing peace and justice to mankind? Have you the necessary knowledge for the work? Do you really know the canons of equity and justice as laid down by Islam? You and your ways of government! May Allah protect me from and may withhold me from behaving towards mankind the way you have behaved and from tyranny, exploitations and murders that you commit. Take care! You are being madly driven by the lust of wealth, power and vicious indulgence, you are behaving hypocritically against man and Allah. You shall be damned forever.

You have challenged me to a battle. I accept your challenge. But I have a proposal to make. Why have a war involving murder and bloodshed of thousands of ignorant people? Why be a scourge to mankind? Let us have mercy on them, whether they are sincere and Allah-fearing Muslims, or ignorant, unenlightened and greedy mercenaries misguided and fooled by you. Let there be peace and tranquillity for all the creatures of Allah.

Let us, you and I, have a single combat. Let it be a combat unto death. Let the soldiers of both armies stand aside and let two of us alone combat with each other. Let the world see and realize who is the sinner and who has forgotten Allah and the Day of Judgement. Will you accept this invitation of mine? Have you the courage for it? Are you a man to face death boldly and bravely or are you merely a vampire sucking the blood of others surreptitiously?

Remember Mu'awiya! Though now old I am still Abu al-Hasan, the man who killed your maternal grandfather, your uncle and your brother in single combats in the Battle of Badr. The same sword is still in my hand, the same blood is still flowing in my veins, the same heart is still throbbing in my chest and with the same courage I still face my enemy. Will you come and face me alone?

Remember that I have not introduced any innovation in religion, nor have I insinuated schism. Verily, I sincerely believe in the religion which you pretended to embrace hypocritically with mental reservations and pretensions, a religion which you in your heart of hearts actually hated and which you gave up quickly and cheerfully.

You pretend that you want to avenge the murder of Caliph Uthman. Do you know who actually killed him and who caused his murder? If really you do so, then seek vengeance on them.

I see before me the day when you will be tired of this war, when you will face defeat, when you will find death or disgrace facing you, when I shall scatter your armies, killing your famous but misguided marshals, when I shall thin your ranks and files; then in despondency and despair you will turn towards the Book of Allah, though you will have no faith in it and no belief in the truth preached by it because you and your followers being hypocrites have no faith in Allah, in the Holy Prophet (s) and the Day of Judgement and who have gone back on their promises.

[ What a prophecy! It all took place as Imam Ali (a) had prophesied. While facing defeat in the Battle of Siffin, Mu'awiya following Amr bin Aas tied some scraps of paper to the spears of his soldiers and raising them declared that it was the Holy Qur'an and that they wanted the Holy Book to act as an arbitrator between him and Imam Ali (a). ]

sallam bro/sis
Regarding the prophets they were all perfect in the prophecy and spreading their message.I was lacking the knowdlege when i posted that post MAY ALLAH FORGIVE ME,i am hear to learn and understand why people debate and have hatred and have tension between each other.
Any way the last post i put was just a article i found so i thought it will be a bit benifical for everyone to read.
Its True in the Quran it does not mentioned their will be 12 immams,or even looking through the most accepted athuntic ahadith did not find anything about you MUST belive in 12 IMMAMS???
If Immam were guided and appointed by ALLAH azawajul Why is our Ummah so apart??? does that mean the Immams failed to do their job???and who is our guide today.
Only freindly questions please dont get angry.
oh YEAH IAM NOT A WHAABBI DUDE,i like every one that mohammad spoke of good(pbuh)ABU BAKR,UMAR,UTHMAN,ALI
CAN SOME ONE ANSWER ME WHY ROKOYA AND ZAINAB ARENR FROM AHALBAYT.
I A MUSLIM,BETTER THAN ANY OTHER SECT OR DIVISION OR GROUP OR GANG ALHAMDOLLIAH
LETS BE 1 ISLAM THE TRUE NAME
ALLAH KNOWS BEST

amerislam

sallam bro/sis
reagarding the "letter".
Do the majority of scholars agree its athunticy(real)
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

To Sayyidina al Hussaini.I kiss ur hand.You are family of my Maula.Some of Sahabah are like MONKEY, sitting on minbar waving sword in hand.They hungry for KHILAAFAH. They want army of monkeys to follow them.Biggest monkey is enemy of Ali, who sat on minbar and curse him.HOW YOU LIKE MAAVIAH!???He is fight UR Khalifa Ali Maula and you say Yazid father is promise to go heaven?!?If you like you can make urself monnkey but dont make rest of Muslim ummah monkey.Abu bakr is gud but not good to be on minbar of Rusool.It is duty of MUSLIM in his own mind to take him off minber and put Ali maula there so the worst son of Maaviah cannot get seat.Good heart is Shia who does hard matam for four five hours and still not tired and then use sword and chain, not swearing and happy to see muslim woman die!Naazla is NOT good heart.Naazla is heart of TAALIBAN.Pakistani shia kill Sipahi Sihaba because of foolish idot like him.He want violence he come and fight me.Why u support monkey like him.He clean toilet of Yazid father put bomb in his arse.WHY I kiss ur hand?! NO!!Good Syed he follow his father Ali not the stealing people.You should be shameful.Saddam kill all Syed in Iraq.You join Iraqi Syed you become good muslim.

Deen mera Ali e
Eemaan mera Ali e
Aashiqaan da Kaaba
Dil jaan Maula Ali e
Jere onoon mande nain
Aar de nah paar de
Ussi haan Malang
Maula Ali Sarkar de.

Salaam Amer

As far as I know, and I am no scholar so Allah forgive if I make a mistake, the majority of Shia scholars are with the view that Mohammed had only one daughter, Fatema tu Zahra. The other 'daughters' whose names I believe you have mentioned had been adopted by The Lady Khadija from her previous marraige.

Once again I am unable to go into full detail taking all the quotes from the relevant sources but I shall tell you how I have heard and read it...

When the Shia 12ers reffer to the 'Ahlul bayt' they mean in it's LIMITED and EXCLUSIVE sense to be none other than Mohammed, Fatema, Hassan, Hussain AND Ali.All other wives, relatives, cousins, uncles etc whether they may have been good or not good are NOT included.This is because the references( in accordance with BOTH shia and SUNNI AUTHENTIC sources) pertaining to the Quranic Ayah 33:33 are specific and relevent ONLY to the above mentioned names.

In it's wider sense 'The Ahlul Bayt' also refers to THE IMAM AL MAHDI, and this once again is clear from THE AUTHENTIC SUNNI SOURCES ( I can send them to you if you wish, or refer to emails by Tod ): but to THE SHIA it would ALSO include all of the infallibly considered Imams preceding him.

The Nahjul Balagha, sermons and sayings of Imam Ali, ARE considered by the Shia to be an authenticated collection of writings.

I hope that in the light of this you will also review that which is considered to be authenticated within your own 'mainstream' madhhab.

Wassalaam.

WARFARE IN ISLAM: WHAT IS CONSTITUTED AS JIHAD.

I would like to pose this question to our Sunni brothers.

Did Ali ibne Abu Talib's fight against Mu'awiah constitute as a JIHAD or was it something else in their own scholarly opinion?

I would be interested to know the views and opininions upon this matter especially if they are to be substantiated with evidence from The Quran.

Thankyou.

Wassalaam

Ali Ameem!! ty for your comments...
Ofcourse Ali ibne Abu Talib's fight against Mu'awiah was a Jihad...thats what Ali (as) did all his life.
I love it when he said to Mu'awiah "Remember Mu'awiya! Though now old I am still Abu al-Hasan, the man who killed your maternal grandfather, your uncle and your brother in single combats in the Battle of Badr. The same sword is still in my hand, the same blood is still flowing in my veins, the same heart is still throbbing in my chest and with the same courage I still face my enemy. Will you come and face me alone?"
I wonder what Mu'awiah would have replied?
Also when he said he was Abu al-Hasan, he was showing Mu'awiah the strenght and bravery of al-Hasan while he was sititng or standing.

salam to all my muslims online.... can some1 plz giv a brother insight on hazret khizaak.... is he a prophet or a aulia.... havent quite got enough information on him.... to all my shia'ne ali people online plz give me insight on the mehdi that you have as a boy and will face the world when the time comes???
can everyone stop fighting and actually discuss matters on here.... to all my muslims friends online salamualaikum.... and another thing whats a ayema ???? thanks salam

salam, hey ali waris... i understand that you are of indian origin... judging by the language you wrote your poem in..... do not judge me your not allah swt to do so... if i support a person on here then it is my right to do so.... i said may allah bless naazla because he has heart and clearly all heart is awarded... ali waris you ask me to fight you... even after knowing i am a al hassana al husseyni sayed....and you say your right.... my friend i come to you with peace in return you come with it back...insha allah you do but if it is your will to come with anger then its allahs trials against me....alhamdolillah... pakistan.. is a beautiful place... i a land fought for the dividence of islam may allah bless that land... but do you think itd be better to curse me or to let allah do his job unto me.... i dont understand why do you hate muawiya RA he was promised heaven if this is the case do you hate bilal RA do you hate ali RA do you hate abu RA do you hate fatima RA do you hate hussan RA do you hate hussayn RA then why do you choose who to love... if the prophet SAS can put his hands up infront of the lord ALLAH SWT and pray for muawiyas forgiveness and then promise him heaven then who are you to hate him..... like many occasions there is a bad son but a good father but you cannot blame the father as the prophet SAS said every man is in own cause of his deeds...like in this case ali waris you sound like a bad man but does that make your father a bad man too... plz settle with your blasphemy as i bring you peace.... ameen

hummm.....
"if the prophet SAS can put his hands up infront of the lord ALLAH SWT and pray for muawiyas forgiveness and then promise him heaven then who are you to hate him"
Ah...nicely said sayedinna but unfortunately it will not happen because there is a big IF.
If it was to happen then it could have happened to Shaitan too.
According to sunni doctrain, if anyone comes agaist Khulafa-e-Rashideen in a bettle field, he can be anything but not heaven dweller.

sorry "sunni doctrine" I ment.

salam, tod i dont think you understand that us sunni's believe that muawiya RA and Aisha RA where both looking for the killers of uthman RA, so was Ali RA but muawiya RA and Aisha RA where looking for it open handling and Ali RA was looking for it under covers... therefore they where both doing the same thing but going about it in to different ways...so technically ALLAH swt knows everything...so ALLAH swt wouldnt have been angry at either side because non was doing the wrong thing.... so it wouldnt have been going against the khalifaa in a spiritual sense only in a physical sense...and remember a key factor in islam is intentions...
and also it wouldnt have happened to shaytaan because he disobeyed ALLAH swt direct order and therefore the Prophet of ALLAH sas would not have asked for him.... and to think that the prophetSAS would ask in prayers for shaytaans benefit is haram.... and it did happen to muawiyaRA he was given a place in heaven... if you vouch that wrong then your saying the prophetSAS speaks lies therefore if he speaks lies then the quran is not true and he made it all up... because he was the only man jibraeelAS went to....
so by saying muawiyaRA is not in heaven is techniqully saying the prophetSAS is a liar and he is not a perfect man.....
salams to all my muslims online

Dear Sayed al Hussayni

I would just like to say something about Ali Waris. It seems clearly that he was cussing NAAZLA not you. From what I can fathom of his message he is offering to kiss your hand, not beat you up!

What has befuddled me is that NAAZLA's comments were truly viscious and brutal by any standards;I cannot believe that any descent Sunni muslim would possibly be able to take ANY JOY in this kind of torturous inhumanity regardless of which race, religion or sect it's being imposed upon.Just to remind you (please read and THINK ABOUT IT carefully) I quote...

'ahhaha i was looking at this footage from iraq at this lady getting shot on her knee caps by sum sunniz and she was a shia.... anyways she died and then her husband tried to act tuff and tried to stop them and he got shot point blank as soon as i saw this i put my hands up and said ya allah bless the killers of these kaffirs that husband and wife died by a sunnis hand let the sunnis live and kaffirs die....ooooo man he was shot point blank when i saw that i was like YEAH FUCK THE Shias ahahhaha it looks so good wen you shias die i swear i hope u men keep dying long live SUNNIs the real sunnatul rasoullah'.

And you Sayed, a descendent of the SHIA IMAMS, are implying that Allah is on the side of this MONSTEROUS mind of a Juvenile delinquent and that he has HEART? He's got about as much heart as Attila The Hunn!

Remember this is not a figment of his own violent imagination, he is describing a real life, video recorded incident.

I'll give you that you finally managed to convince AmerIslam that MOHAMMED IS PERFECT IN ALL ASPECTS (well done)! But now YOU are going to HAVE to retract your comments on the IDIOT who has made the above comments.

Otherwise I shall make no differentiation in YOUR attitude toward human life in general and his.

Wassalaam

Salaam Sayed al Hussaini

It just doesn't make any sense. If Muawiah was promised heaven, why did he go and ruin it all by fighting Imam Ali?

What, had he forgotten ALL the sayings of the Prophet Mohammed about this, this , this GATE KEEPER OF PARADISE?

Go on then. Give me the AUTHENTIC Hadith quote saying MUAWIAH'S got a place in heaven (even though the prophet wasn't around to forgive him, for the biggest act of hypocrisy since Jang e Jamal).

Besides, Allah speaks to the Prophet Mohammed in the Quran saying of certain people that, even if Mohammed asks forgiveness for them himself seventy times(!)Allah will STILL not forgive them.

We are not like the Christians. Jesus did not die for our sins.The Prophet Mohammed did NOT say Astaghfirullah e Rabbi wa atoo bo illayh 70 times a day just so that the likes of Muawiah could get away with weilding the sword against Imam Husseins Dad.

Imam Ali asked forgiveness for him? That doesn't make a toshing bit of difference.Imam Hussein asked forgiveness for Yazid. Allah, the angels, the Shias AND the Sunnis are STILL going to curse him until the judgement day.

Oh yeah. And how do you expect Muawiah to enter the paradise when he crosses the bridge over hell and he gets to the gate and he sees Imam Ali standing there and he needs to get visa entry.

Brother I tell you he may as well take a good strong leap, tuck and dive downwards into the welcoming fires for the amount of FITNA he caused.

That's what I LOVE about some of you guys. You really know how to shoot yourself in the foot when it comes to Muawiah.

Yeah right. Key factor in Islam is about intentions. It was Muawiahs intention to fight Ali and it was Ali's intention to fight Muawiah. But brother it was for DIFFERENT reasons.

Uthman was an EXCUSE they were using to take the Khilafat.In Defense of the THIRD Caliph they decide to fight the FOURTH Caliph.I mean, isn't this HUGELY contradictory??

I mean if it had been Ali that'd been murdered would they have done the same for him. Wage a war against the Fifth Caliph.

For Gods sake Muawiah WAS the fifth Caliph! Well done Mr al Hussayni you can say it with confidence 'cause your sidin' with this murderer all the way.

I just know SO MANY SUNNIS who HATE Muawiah and every time I try to convince them that "NO, he's YOUR leader, YOU LOVE HIM, it's in YOUR Authentic books that he's a favoured one of heaven" they just won't believe me. They are under the deluded impression that Yazid's dad is bad well it's up to YOU Sayed to make them realise that all he was doing was defending the KHILAFA E RASHIDUN, except for Imam Ali whom he was fighting.

Now you can see why 'student' the ex shia has advised all the sunni brothers not to even go anywhere near this topic along with the other stated ones because it is one of the BIG SLAPS in the face of your 'all the Sahabah's are like stars' argument.

You are in the forest. You cannot find the wood because the trees are in the way. Take your rose coloured glasses OFF and smell the Napalm. Imam Ali is telling you to FIGHT MUAWIAH now pick your sword up and FIGHT HIM!

Wassalaam

Dear Tod

Thank you so much for your enlightenements of the Nahjul Balagha. They are just so stimulating. The truth it just pours out. The reality of the situation becomes aparrent.

Yeah, I LOVE that quote as well

"Remember Mu'awiya! Though now old I am still Abu al-Hasan, the man who killed your maternal grandfather, your uncle and your brother in single combats in the Battle of Badr. The same sword is still in my hand, the same blood is still flowing in my veins, the same heart is still throbbing in my chest and with the same courage I still face my enemy. Will you come and face me alone?"

When will they understand my friend? Life just wasn't a bed of roses!

If the 'The Sahabah's are like stars' then Muawiah must have been a meteorite.

I mean he's going down.
Boy is he going down.

Wassalaam

Sallam bro/sis

why do you care if mauwiya was a good person or not or if Immam Ali was perfect?,does that change the way you worship your lord NO,does it change the Quran NO,does it change sunnatalrosool NO,DOES IT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT "SHIA TO JUDGE PEOPLE THEY KNOW NOTHING OF EVEN THE GREAT ALI, NO, NO, NO.
The prophet(pbuh) spoke of the shahaba good words as you know but you choose to deny,by denying this you go against the prophet(pbuh).
I have noticed alot that shia no more about after the prophet(pbuh)than islam the religon.
What ever happend after the prophet(pbuh)is not part of our religon,and who ever says it is,has not read any part of the HOLY QURAN OR KNOW NOTHING THE BLESSED PROPHET MOHAMMAD(PBUH).

021.106
YUSUFALI: Verily in this (Qur'an) is a Message for people who would (truly) worship Allah

027.001
YUSUFALI: These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear

028.085
YUSUFALI: Verily He Who ordained the Qur'an for thee, will bring thee back to the Place of Return. Say: "My Lord knows best who it is that brings true guidance, and who is in manifest error."
041.003
YUSUFALI: A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand

054.017
YUSUFALI: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

002.132
YUSUFALI: And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

002.133
YUSUFALI: Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

002.208
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.

104.001
YUSUFALI: Woe to every (kind of) scandal-monger and-backbiter,

BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN ISLAM,READ THE BOOK ALLAH HAS BESTOWED ON US AS A MERCY THE HOLY QURAN,FIND ANY WHERE IN THE QURAN WERE ALLAH HAS SAID FOLLOW ANY MESSENGER OR GUIDENCE OTHER THAN MOHAMMAD(PBUH) AND THE HOLY QURAN WHICH IS FOR MAN OF UNDERSTANDING.
LETS BE MUSLIMS NOT HISTORIANS WITH NO TRUE OR REAL EVIDENCE.
AS THE HOLY PROPHET(PBUH)TAKE WHAT IS GOOD FROM SOMEONE AND LEAVE THE BAD,THAT IS BETTER FOR IN THE HEREAFTER.

sallam bro/sis

The great Ahmad Deedat speaks good of the shahaba,does any one,on this post thinks their smarter or any (shia scholar)think that Sheich Ahmad Deedat speaks mistaking about the shahaba R.A.
Ahmad Deedat is a true servant of ALLAH and a true follow of Mohammad(pbuh),why,because he as fought the kaffir with their own knowdledge and beats them easily,he is feard by the catholics,christians,hindos,jews because of his faith and knowledge of the HOLY QURAN MAY ALLAH BESTOW IS MERCY UPON SHEICH AHMAD DEEDAT(INSHALLAH).
WHILE THE SO CALLED "SUNNI BATTLE AGAINST THE SO CALLED SHIA AND GET NO WHERE ONLY STRAIGHT INTO THE SHAYTANS HOLE.
LET ALLAH BE THE JUDGE,NOT SOME PATHATIC UNFAITHFUL STUPID PERSON THAT SO CALLED RECORDED THESE EVENTS WHICH WERE SO DAMEGING TO THE MUSLIM UMMAH,THAT THIS PERSON WAS ACTUALLY SMART,WHY BECAUSE HIS INTENTION WAS TO DIVIDE THE UMMAH AND IT DID.

ISLAM IS OUR RELIGON NOT HISTORY

ALLAH KNOWS BEST NOT SHAYTAN(MAN)
MAY ALLAH FORGIVE US ALL(INSHALLAH)

SALLAM WAALUKUM

amerislam

sallam bro/sis

THE HOLY QURAN STATES:

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast
no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the
end tell them the truth of all that they did.” [Qur’an 6:159]

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which

Allah (stretches out for
you), and be not divided among yourselves…" - Qur'an [3:103]

“Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into
disputations after receiving Clear Signs…” [Qur’an 3:105]

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

amerislam

Thanks Ali Ameem fro answering to Sayyidina al Hussaini on my behalf.

Hey Amerislam your last quotes of Quran go against Mauwiya...think about that deeper.
He was the one who had devided people to the point that he gatherd an army of Muslims to fight against Imam Ali(a) the Khalifatul Muslameen. Did Ali(a) not tell him in his letter not to spil blood and come to the right path as if he would have said "And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves…" - Qur'an [3:103]"

History is important..think of this... Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) was trusted by all as "ameen" because people had seen Him as never a lier in the past (history) or should I say "historically people had not seen Prophet lying so they concluded that he is a truthful person and started following Him".

Also history is important when you see Propher's(pbuh) grand father standing and praying for the saftey of the Kaaba from Ibraha's army of elephants and asking Allah to fulfill his promise. And surely Allah (swt) did fulfill his promise and sent "ababels" who destroyed Abraha's army like it was chewed hay.
History is so important that Quran has recorded that event as well and I quote
" With the Name of Allah, the Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer

105.001 Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?

105.002 Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?

105.003 And He sent against them Flights of Birds,

105.004 Striking them with stones of baked clay.

105.005 Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up.

Salaam.

Good point Tod. May Allah bless you for using a little bit of objectivity hear.

The Quran is not meant to be a book that we keep upon the shelf just so that we can flash out quotes to justify it's own existence.

We are are most certainly meant to reflect upon it's verses, within the contexts especially of when , where and why it was revealed.

We are not scholars, but it seems that as well as a clear meaning to this book, there are also deeper meanings, for which only Mohammed and The Most Knowledgable after him, would be considered to be the main interpreters, initially.

In the early stages of Islam, The Essential Link between the Quran and the 'understanding' of it therefore, especially for the Shia, would have come from The Ahlul Bayt.

On a CRASS level however we once again witness Muawiah (I DO apologise but his name is unavoidable in relation), RAISING THE QURAN ON SPEARHEADS at the Battle of Siffeen in an attempt to prove his point.

It is evident to note in the light of this as to how this holy book has been USED throughout history, in combat, AGAINST those whom Allah had actually 'FAVOURED' (Al Hamd).

The Quran is FULL of history. It talks about the past AND the future. It may infact be argued that many of the quotes from which AmerIslam has taken from the Quran actually bear direct relevence to the situation immediately AFTER Muhammed's death.

For instance

As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast
no part in them in the least.” [Qur’an 6:159]

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for
you), and be not divided among yourselves…" - Qur'an [3:103].

Are we to say that these verses are relevant for only THESE times or where they infact also relevent AND applicable in circumstances between civil war with Muawiah and Ali?

Should we not ask if Muawiah himself was infact capable enough of interpreting these verses PRIOR to having waged war against Imam Hussain's father?

Is it not only natural that we at the end of the day question the motives of somebody, who like Umar ibn al Khattab, is PREPARED to shed the blood of other Muslims no sooner than the immediate passing away of our Holy Prophet Mohammed?

It's time I signed off my brotheres and sisters.

I have really enjoyed speaking to all of you and feel that this has been a valuable experience for me, in understanding that not ALL the sunni's are the same, there is flexibility in some of their views and there is much that The Sunni and the Shia are able to share with each other, having more common ground than we think, should but stop to consider that we ALL ask Allah to bless Mohammed and his family in our five daily prayers for example.

I did have some time off work recently, within which time I visited Karbala and Najaf in Iraq, visiting both the graves of Imam Ali and his son Imam Hussein.

It is time now for me to return to normal life.

Thankyou to AmerIslam, Sayyidina al Hussaini,Tod, Umar Sajid, Alisha, Ali Waris and Ali Mirza and finally Michael Williams for having given us all the opportunity and 'freedom of speech' to air our views.

May Allah look kindly upon all of you, giving you success in your practical, spiritual, working and family lives.

Wassalaam

salam to every muslim online..... ok what i dont understand is why do the shia hate the prophetSAS most loved wife... aisha RA..... i know that she was with muawiyaRA in the battle of siffin and so on but why the hate against if she was the prophetSAS most loved wife.... one of a few humans who had ever seen the prophet fully nude... because thats how much the prophet loved her... sahih bukhari " and i am pleased that i will leave this world without anybody seening my body in full nudity except my beloved wives".... why do you hate her.... is it because she so called led an army against the ahlulbayt "ali RA".... is this the main reason....

Salaam
sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni

It's confirmed, I'm addicted.

If you refer to one of my previous emails you will note the Quranic reference to the Tafsir of Al Hamd whereby 'Guide us to the straight path' applies specifically to the Ahlul Bayt.

The Ahlul Bayt in this context includes Ali, the father to Mohammeds grandchildren. As we have stated earlier wives can be divorced and are not therefore considered to be PURELY INSEPERABLE from their husbands. The Quran infact WARNS the wives of Mohammed , lest they commit a wrong and incur a DOUBLE punishment. This opens the door to whether or not Aisha's BATTLE with Ali was a WRONG or RIGHT decision.If you yourself refer to what the GREAT Sunni scholars have written about the incident many of them are clear to the notion that her actions caused great loss to the Ummah and that she herself admitted, at one point or another, that what she had done was WRONG. NO Prophet Mohammed around at that time to forgive her.

It is GREATLY questionable as to whether or not Aisha saw Mohammeds private parts and to even refer to such an incident is highly derogatory, and questionable as to the reason why such a tradition would be reported in the first place.It has no bearing on the respectability of Aisha in relation to the civil war that she initiated against Imam Hussains Father.

My wife could see me in the nude. It's not a basis for me to trust her with my step children though is it?Infact some scholars have confirmed that it is haram for husband and wife to be COMPLETLY NAKED infront of each other.Even Adam and Eve had to cover themselves.

You have an elaborate name. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I hope you've not been pulling our legs.

Because I am finding it hard to believe that you are a true descendent of Imam Hussayn. The reason being that you are the first Al Hussayni Sayed I have heard who refers to himself as "Sayedina".

I do understand that Sunni Sayeds exist, and if it IS the case that you happen to TRULY to be one then can you please confirm it.

It would mean that you are related in blood via your ancestors to the likes of the Late Seyyed Ayatollah Khomeini al Musawi, to the present day Seyyed Ayatollah Seestani al Hussayni AND also to me, whose FULL name is Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi, being a descendent of the 10th Shia Imam.

I'm sorry it's not something I like to announce to one and all but there is a family issue at hand here, which includes a consideration toward the Sacrifice of our ancestors to which YOU should have a responsibility.

Once again may Allah forgive us both, especially if we are mistaken.

Wassalaam

Slam Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi!!.....I am your older cousin from 7th Imam....nice to meet you. You alraedy know what my family name would be..LOL

As far as I am concerned it is a fact that people in a houase would know about the inside affairs of the house better than outsiders... having said that who the outsiders are to describe daily life of the Prophet(pbuh)

How did people know that Aisha was the most loving wife of the Prophet while she did a lot of damage to Him while He was alive and after His passing away as well. Even Quran had to say about her at least at one point when she and Hafsa had a conspiracy ploted aginst other wives. Also Prophet had told all of his wives to stay home after his passing away. But Aisha came out from her home and Prophets saying came true that dogs of Bani-Saada will bark on you and when it happend there came 40 hafiz-e-Quran who lied and witnessed wrongly that it was not the Bani Saada's place. So that was the politics of Talha and Zubair her brothers and also of Muawiah.

i dont find it hard to believe... my cousins are also named sayedinna before there names.... is this a sin, but i a sure you the same blood runs through me as through you if you are a sayed aswell....insha allah.... is it degrading to see a sayed a sunni?? just wanting to know how people feel in the shia society??? theres plenty of sayeds where i am from.... matter of fact my blood line branches back to the great sheik abdul kadir jelaani RTA...if you know who that is... who to was a al hussan al hussayni sayed... anywayz knows told me what a ayama is...plz get back.... salam my muslim brothers online.... thanks

reading higher up in the articles, i agree with what a person said that "islam is everything the prophet did said to do and not anything after" its just being rational and makes alot of sense....
so metaphorically thinking your parents go out of town for the weekend your left alone with a set of instructions to follow.... they give you these instructions to follow so nothing bad happens... but things happen which is your own problem so you have to deal with it own.. you make your own resolutions to make sure that its not shown or seen the mistakes that have been made... this is the case of the shia...

you resolved the problems yourselves with the twelve imams...
and you didnt follow the instructions that you where to abide by so you make a cover up to make yourself look good...
honestly changing the five pillars of islam and adding a twelve imamat to it is not acceptable by mystandards....
think about it if they where really to come and be so important to islam then the prophet sas would have told and us about it and told us to abide by there rules... but he didnt....
so that completely is unacceptable.... verily you have many hadith and doctrines saying that this is what is to happen and that but going to the extent of changing the pillars of islam is not acceptable..... its just the matter of the point... that cannot be right... what happened with aliRA and muawiyaRA was after the make of islam so that all was a politcal matter.... nothing too do with the deen of islam...

salamualaikum, may allah shed light onto those who believe, as for those who do not may he give you hedyy-at,. there has been so much well discussions on this website.... i must say it sounds like ali ameen, tod, and sayedinna illalahi al hassana al husseini know what there talking about., sayedinna illalahi you are well spoken and may allah shed light upon your work.....
I myself was a shia.Also a sayed aswell, and to note ali ameen i have heard a sayedinaa al hussana aswell,. there is a few i have seen and met., they are some what great men in speech and in character anyway sayedinna ilallahi is the type of men why i joined sunnizm, because its sounds sensible and practical.... i and others are sayeds in sunnizm so there is many sayed sunni'z... salams

Salaam
Sayed al Hussayni
& Sayed Isa Ali

First of all, although it may sound shocking to you, there is nowhere in the Quran where it says 'there are five pillars of Islam'.

If you refer to my previous messages, in reply to 'The Essay', you will note The Roots and Branches that the Shia 12ers believe in as part of the fundamentals characterising their beliefs.

NONE of these condradict the Quran.

Similarly, alongside the Sunni interpretation of THE FIVE PILLARS, they have additional FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS which have been noted as

1. Tawhid 2.Angels of Allah 3.Books of Allah 4.Messengers of Allah 5.The day of Judgement 6.Predestination or supremacy of Divine will 7. Life after death.

None of these contradict the Quran either.

So your point about changing the state of 'The Deen' I believe is relevant only to your limited spate of thinking.

In short, you have taken Muawiah's decision to find legitmacy in the destruction of the Muslim Ummah's lifeblood as legally permissable; and have instead shifted the blame of corruption of The faith onto The Shia.

This is clearly proposterous and I say yet again that you are still wearing rose coloured sunglasses, take them off and start fighting for your ancestral forefather Imam Ali instead of pretending that Allah is 'pleased' with his enemies.

The example you've given of the parents going out and the children being left on their own, ending up making their own rules, applies to the likes of Ayesha who in the abscence of her own prophet went against not just 'The Pillars', but THE ACTUAL QURAN ITSELF.

Which Quranic Ayah do you think both Muawiah (may Allah's curse be upon him) and Ayesha used then, to justify their playground games in the abscence of Mohammed?

Remember The Quran consists of ALL THE FUNDEMENTALS for a Muslim to be guided by, especially with it's references to the Prophet Mohammed's family, who were the actual guides themselves.

I'm sorry. But changing the religion is one thing and OPENELY ATTACKING IT is another.

"you resolved the problems yourselves with the twelve imams..."???

It only takes a simpleton to realise that your not making any sense here. Yeah. The twelve Imams helped us to resolve our problems.

Who did your community have to resolve yours. Abdul Qaadir Al Jilaani? I hope you see my point.

"and you didn't follow the instructions that you were to abide by so you make a cover up to make yourself look good..."???

I'd rather be covered by any one of the twelve Imams than be covered by that backstabber of a sly Munafiq Abu Yazid. He's YOUR leader mate - and he hasn't exactly given your community a very 'good' reputation either has he?

It's not us brother, it's 'The Ahle Sunnah wa al Jama'ah' that have changed The Fundamentals of the faith by PHYSICALY WARRING against the divinely appointed Imam.

On top of that they have a contention upon the very concept of divine appointment, not because it's wrong, but because once again it OBLITERATES the status of Abu Bakr & Umar's Khilaafat.

The same Umar that threatened TO KILL ANY MUSLIM who said Mohammed was dead.Where does it say you can do that in the five pillars?!

When your own SAHIH Hadith's are telling you that Mohammed said after him, there would be TWELVE CALIPHS all descending from The Quraysh.

Now I want YOU to tell me who those TWELVE CALIPHS are if you have the guts.

Your own Sunni historians have had a go and if you want to know their version of it I can tell you but I want to here it from you first.

It is possible that you will not be able answer me, because many of your communinty have decided that it is not even important any more.

Just like Muawiah.The Sunni's have TRIED to ESTABLISH a system of Khilafah and it has failed miserably; there are just too many loopholes and it is impossible for your people to effectively defend the idea: instead it has become their mission to attack our unbreakable grasp on the obedience that we have toward our 12 Imams.

If you keep your compliments up for Muawiah brother you'll end up like him.

Fighting AGAINST your own Mehdi instead of fighting on his side.

Sayedinna;

because of your blood relationship with the Third, Second and First Imams, Hussain, Hassan and Ali I feel that the truth of your allegience toward Ayesha's battle enemy, Imam Ali, lies in your veins.

I say the same to you Isa Ali, whose writing style bears a remarkable resemblence to that of Mr al Huassayni.Perhaps you are the same person.(May Allah forgive me for distrusting you).

The attitude of the Shia toward the Sunni Syed Qaum is that of compassion initially.This is because we share a common history and bear the burden of pain for what happened to our great ancestor Hussain Shaheed of Karbala, via the evil snake child of Muawiah, Yazid.

Many of the Shia Syeds understand why so many of their previous ancestors had to convert to Sunni, through the persistent pressure and killings of the Shia, there was an onslaught massacre by the Caliphs of Baghdad and other towns. The Syeds of those places, either fled or converted through utter fear and intimidation.

In short it didn't stop at Karbala my friend. It didn't stop at Karbala.

I know where you come from. I know your family history. There is a nation of people that mourn the massacre of your ancestors.There is a nation of scholars that have fought to keep the teachings of the Imams that YOU descend from alive.

The 6th Imam Ja'afer us Sadiq was neither Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki or Shaafi in the school of thought that he followed.

You must ask yourself, WHAT exactly was the Madhhab of your ancestors.

Remember. Imam Hussain stood up ugainst Muawiah's father at the request of The Shia. In the end it was him, his family and only a small handfull of SHIA that lay massacred on the battlefield, on the fatefull day of Ashura.

If you ever go to visit Al Hussein's grave you will wonder as to why The Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaah have all but deserted the area and are nowhere to be seen.

Who CARES about what happened? The descendents of Ali do my friend. The descendants and the lovers.

The Gilani or Jilani Seyyeds, I have heard of them. In Pakistan there is a big PIR, or Holy man who has many followers and is of the same lineage.

I looked on his website recently and the historical information pertaining to the successorship of Mohammed is shockingly similar to the Shia version of events.

I mean this man is famously Sunni, but I heard he's being influenced by some other, Shia Syed Pir.

Perhaps none of this is of any consequence to you but there are REASONS also why SYEDS such as the type that I am mentioning,decide to REMAIN sunni DESPITE knowing the truth - there's usually a lot at stake, like they'll lose all there followers, and income that goes along with it.

But every now and then somebody converts, converting their whole family and sometimes converting the whole community along with them.

Finally, my advice to you brothers, is that don't go against the 12 Imams my friends, because you are a part of them.

Try and find out about their lives. I am not trying to be offensive but their status is a lot more significant than Sheikh Qadir al Jilani for example, or of any other Scholar, Shia or Sunni, that you could possibly think of.

The Imam, you must ask yourself, who were they, when were they born, when did they die, who were the political leaders of their time and most importantly, WHO WERE THEIR FOLLOWERS?

May Allah give you the insight of your ancestral grandmother Bibi Fatema tu Zahra, in standing up against the false opressors and standing up for the rights of the oppressed.

"Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom YOU have FAVOURED, not of those who have GONE ASTRAY, nor of those who have incurred YOUR WRATH".

Al Hamd
Holy Quran

Wassalaam

sallam bro/sis

can someone inform me on how may duaghters the prophets(pbuh) had.

my point is that if the prophet(pbuh) had 5 daughters do you think he will say only 1 is my ahalalbayt,fatima r.a,I DOT THINK SO.please correct me if iam wrong.

with the immams its is sunnah and islamic to follow them,but when people say that they were appointed by ALLAW(SWT)and were SINLESS,i think its abit overboard.
WHO SAID THEY WERE APPOINTED BY ALLAH,AND WHO SAID THEY WERE SINLESS,did they??? also i dont think so

LETS TALK ABOUT HOW WE CAN UNIT THIS UMMAH NOT WORRY ABOUT PEOPLES POLITICS THAT NO ONE HAS 100% PERCENT OF.
if muslims halfto belive in the 11 immams and say they are our guides through ALLAH appointmet,then why is the prophet(pbuh) seal of the prophets,didnt he do his job enough???
Did the prophet(pbuh) ever mention these Immams appointed by ALLAH and sinless.
I cat see what the differnce is by prophets and these 11 Immams.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
sydney australia

PS

'AAIMMA' is plural for Imam.

SALAAM AMER

Mohammed has gone.Who do we unite under now?

After the prophet Mohammed died there were two types of Muslims that were left over. Good Muslims and bad Muslims. The good Mouslims wanted the Ummah to unite but the bad muslims did not. So. The bad Muslims found an excuse to fight the good muslims.

COME AMER.Mohammed has gone. Let us UNITE under the banner of Imam Ali.

Do not be afraid. He will lead you against the hypocrites and the Munafiqs.

LET THE UMMAH BE ONE!

Salaam Amer,

to remind you, from sources pertaining to the Ahle Sunna

Al-Juwaini al-Shafi'i, in Fara'id al -Simtayn, narrates that the Messenger of Allah informed: "I and Ali and Hassan and Hussein AND NINE of the descendents of Hussein are the PURIFIED ONES and the SINLESS".

He also narrtes from Abdullah ibn Abbas( reliable narrator of AUTHENTIC SUNNI hadith), from the Prophet who said "I am the chief of Prophets and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be TWELVE, the first of them being Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being Al-Mahdi".

Please once again consider the VITAL importance of there being TWELVE Imams, not eleven as you seem to be suggesting something alternative.

In view of your comment

if muslims halfto belive in the 11 immams and say they are our guides through ALLAH appointmet,then why is the prophet(pbuh) seal of the prophets,didnt he do his job enough???

The Prophet Muhammed left the Ummah NOT SO THAT THEY COULD BE DIVIDED AND CREATE CIVIL WAR...which is what happened.

Yes. He did his job enough, what you do not seem to understand is that there NEEDED to be people IN HIS PLACE to carry the job on for him.

The people who he meant to leave in place as his SUCCESSORS were the TWELVE consecutive IMAMS as stated in AUTHENTIC traditions, mentioned above.

HE DID NOT LEAVE SAHIH AL BUKHARI BEHIND.

HE DID NOT LEAVE THE FOUR SCHOOLS OF SUNNI THOUGHT BEHIND.

HE DID NOT LEAVE AHMED DEEDAT BEHIND.

HE LEFT BEHIND THE QURAN AND HIS FAMILY TO PROTECT ISLAM.

And the stupid Muslims, instead of protecting them FOUGHT them.

Please open your eyes Amer. The truth is not with the majority.

It with Imam Ali at Siffeen.

It is with Imam Hussain at Karbala.

The loyalty of Islam lies within these names OVER AND ABOVE the Sahabah.

YOU WILL NEVER UNITE THE MUSLIM UMMAH UNTIL YOU RECOGNISE THIS TRUTH.

Otherwise there will always be another Jang e Jamal, another Jange Siffeen, another battle of Karbala.

Amer my brother:

in short,

we need a race of Muslims who RECOGNISE the mistakes of the past, so that they may not repeat the same mistakes in the future.

History continues, and will continue to ask these questions over and over again.

Truth must be divided from falsehood.

Please do not continue to run away.

Wassalaam

ali ameen, "your really brainy arent you" welldone

but a question might i still add?.... if Sheik abdul kadir al jelaani ( beloved aulia of allah) was influenced by shia'ne ali folk it doesnt make a difference...because allah has not made them stupid or unknowledgable.... allah indeed has given them great and immense knowledge... so when it was given to the right person ie a sunni aulia you see the power it can acheive.... also i dont understand hanafi, hanbal, maliki, and shaafi made specific fatwa's against the shia and they are some of the greatest men in sunnism.... ok ok

i was sitting with a mate of mine and we where talking about the whole shia and sunni division... he said something that actually struck me made alot of sense if you allow yourself to think about it..... he said all the shia men what is too have sex with alot of women with them shutting there mouths and it being legal (muttah) and something else but i forgot that bit but when i remember ill post it up sorry LOL... anyways is this tru look at it from and outside view....

and sunnism gives women more right to speak than shia does... think about it we allowed and accept the fact that aisha RA(may allah bless her as many times the shias curse her in tenfolds) a women that was allowed to protest and lead an army based on the fact that she was thinking the truth and she had patience.....

ok ok tell me who the shia dislike from the sunni sect..... and was the 12ers all shias ...plz give me reference on what the first four said about the whole society of shia concept....

and also i didnt understand when use said; because of your blood relationship with the Third, Second and First Imams, Hussain, Hassan and Ali I feel that the truth of your allegience toward Ayesha's battle enemy, Imam Ali, lies in your veins....

and sheik abdul kadir al jelaani was the greatest aulia to ever live..... he was so pious that he was present on the night of mira'aj.... do you shia accept that....

sorry i meant ali ameem

hey every1111111, can sum1 feed me sum info....

ali RA was killed by a poison arrow rite
fatima RA died naturally
hussayn RA was killed by that faggot yazid
how did hussan RA die???

GET BACK

sallam
Ali R.a was killed by his own tribe
Hussan R.a was poisend by his own tribe

Can some one answer my question,HOW MANY CHILDREN DID PROPHET MOHAMMAD(PBUH)HAVE.
Islam = submit to ALLAH and surrender to ALLAH

Dont the shia say the Immams were appointed for guidene please correct me if iam wrong.
DID they themselves say they were appointed by ALLAH (SWT).
THE 4 MAJOR SCHOOL OF THOUGHTS OF SUNNI WERE TAUGHT BY JAFFAR SADIQ R.A HE WAS THEIR TEACHER,
WOULD one ask what he was teaching was true.
Ahmad Deedat is one oF the greatest man i belive in islam,who has reverted more muslim than ANY sheich,the jews the catholics the hindus and the rest of the astary religons fear this man because of his knowledge,which SHIA OR SUNNI SCHOLAR HAS achived this mans work,did the Immas other than Immam ALI AND HASSAN HUSSAN R.A achieve what AHMAD DEEDAT HAS, I DONT THINK SO

Insallah we muslims will over come the shaytans plan and unite as one UMMAH.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

sallam bro/sis

What is the postion of a muslim that does not belive that the Immams were appointend by ALLAH AND are not sinless(perfect),are they in shia these days though muslims?

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Assalaam un alaykum,

brothers Amer Islam and Sayyidinna al Husayni.

The Prophet Mohammed had only ONE biological daughter who was FATEMA TU ZAHRA. The rest of them were adopted.

I'm sorry Amer but you'll have to do your own research on them, there aren't that many details recorded about their lives as far as I'm aware.

Neither was there much concern about collecting hadith from them.

I am sorry Mr Al Hussayni but you are standing on very thin ground in defence of Abdul Qadir al Jilani, where on earth does HE come into the historical equation?

I don't mean to diss him, OR Ahmed Deedat either - but these guys came around a very long time after the Prophet Mohammed.

Ali was killed by a poison arrow - and by his own tribe??

What, you mean Bani Hashim?

Fatima tu Zahra died NATURALLY?

What when she was still in her twenties!?

Oh and of course, Muawiah had nothing to do with any of it.

We still haven't changed our glasses have we?

There IS ONE true school of thought and that belongs to the 6th Shia Imam Ja'afer us Sadiq.

The Sunni's don't follow it.

Neither did the Sunni Imams Hanafi, Hanbali, Malik and Shaafi'i, other wise they wouldn't have developed their own schools of thought.

They wouldn't have HAD to.

In short, some of them were his students, for a SHORT while, and then they became there own bosses.

Have you ever wondered why half of Baghdad is Shia, Jaafar us Sadiq's son, the 7th Imam Musa e Kazim is buried there.

The Sunni's know nothing about the lives of these Imams, otherwise they wouldn't claim that their teachings belonged to their own 4schools.

Now YOU tell me. Which school of thought did the 7TH Imam belong to, when his own father belonged to none of them.

It's obvious - JAAFERI, which in Arabia is just another term for Shia.

OK. What about the 8th Imam Ali Reza. Amer said we should follow their Sunnah, who's Sunnah do you think the whole of Iran is following?

What. Do you think Imam Ali Reza didn't follow his own grandfather Jaafer us Sadiq?

Once again in utter wonderment, I am forced to question, amongst these GREATLY prophesised SAINTS of ALLAH where on earth does Qadir al Jilani come?

He bears absolutely no equation to what the bible itself had prophesised as TWELVE PRINCES descending from the blood of Abraham.

I have to pull my hair out when I hear about people travelling to Iraq, with the intention of visiting al Jilani's shrine,COMPLETELY disregarding THE REAL AWLIAH of Allah: The clearest ancestry to the blood of Mohammed, a simple and sound shajarah leading up to 12 generations clear cut, and YOU want to visit some obscure sufi saint??

I know I sound patronising brother, but you have got to get your priorities in order.

Yes. I agree. You've got a hero there for the women's lib movement.

" and sunnism gives women more right to speak than shia does...

AyeshaRA...a woman that was ALLOWED(??!!) to protest and lead an army ..."

Incorrect. The Quran orders the wives of the prophet to "STAY IN YOUR HOMES".Ayesha went against the Quranic law and therefore was clearly comitting a haram act.

If all muslim women were like her there would never be any love for Imam Ali in this world and there would be great worry and civil strife at every level of society.

May Allah save our daughters from her influence.

Amer. Ahmed Deedat is dead. So is Imam Ali Reza.You know about the history of one man and know nothing of the history of the other.

It doesn't bear in comparison, to note the greater influence of Islam over Christianity when we consider the Pure knowledge of the actual Bible that was passed onto Imam Ali Reza, via Mohammed through the Imams prior to him.

A child of one of your Sunni Caliphs was a product of a Mutah marraige.

Mohammed had allowed it.

Umar did Bidat and Banned it.

Shia men LIKE women. So what. Each to their own.
It's better than adopting attitudes such as NAAZLA, who is clearly verging on the homosexual with his seemingly frustrated tendencies.

Besides - Ayesha, Muawiah, Abu Bakr,Umar,Uthman,al Jilani: NONE of these come under the scope of PILLARS OF ISLAM or BASIC BELIEFS for you guys,

so it isn't really worth getting passionate about.

The system of Khilaafat that you've got is quite dodgy, and there isn't really any point in relying on it, especially when Ayesha didn't even care for the concept.

In retrospect I feel you are unable to comprehend history in the correct light, there seems to be an invisible veil covering your eyes from the truth - some of the arguments you are presenting, I am sorry to say seem too naive.

You seem to be out of your domain.

Maybe if you keep it simple, Quran, Sunnah etc and cut all the history out as Amer has been suggesesting for so long it will all be much easier to digest.

Just don't start talking KARBALA with the Shi'as. It's unchartered territory for you guys.

Dua's and Salaam.

Ps.

Sayyidinna al Hussayni

I meant by

...I feel that the truth of your allegience toward Ayesha's battle enemy, Imam Ali, lies in your veins....

Your own ancestral grandfather Imam Ali fought against Ayesha, so, Inshallah, something instinctively/genetically within you should want to do the same.

Wassalaam

Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi

Brother Amer.

In my own experience there are Sunnis I know of, who have respect for the twelve Imams as well as believing in the first four Khalifas.

Muawiah is not amongst this group.

However, Sunni books STILL reffer to them as THE SHIA Imams, and, their STRICT followers have always been refered to as SHIA.

Wassalaam.

PPS.

Dear Amer, in relation to your comment

'Don't the shia say the Immams were appointed for guidance please correct me if iam wrong.

DID they themselves say they were appointed by ALLAH (SWT)'?

In the sayings that the Shia have collected, YES, the Imams very strongly imply this.

You should read some of their sayings brother, very lofty indeed.

Wassalaam

Dear BADAZZ

Imam Hassan(as) was poisoned by his wife, who was under the conspirative influence of Muawiah at the time.

If you want to know about his funeral, you maybe interested to find out about how Aisha was instrumental in diverting his burial from the Masjid e Nabavi;

with a shower of arrows my friend - imbedding them into the very body of the dead Imam.

Wassalaam

Ali Ameer!! I have come to a conclusion that these guys will never understand all what you have written. You are right when you say they have a viel on their eyes and if I may simply put it as Allah has said at one place that He has placed a seal on their hearts.

Tlaking about the failure of Imams(as) as they suggest...what happend to prophets such as Noha, he preached for 900 years and very few were converted...did he failed? i don't think so...it does not matter if one converts of 5000...in Allah's relegion there is no compulsion. His (swt) kingdom will not shrink nor He will suffer if only 5 people become Muslims. If people want to go to heavn then they have to obey only one religion which is Islam.

I will post one more message and then I will rest my case.

Cheers...long live Islam

The historical event of Ghadeer-e-Khum, which took place on 18th Zil-Hajj 10AH.

1. Holy Kaaba - where Holy Prophet (SAW) performed his farewell pilgrimage.

2. On the way back to Madina, Holy Prophet (SAW) received a divine revelation (Wahi) No. 5:67 about the urgent delivery of message.
"5:67. O Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve.

3. At the location of Ghadeer-e-Khum, & recitation of Azan (Hayya Ala Khair-il-Amal) by Hazrat Bilal.

4. Delivery of sermon by Holy Prophet (SAW) in front of approximately one hundred and twenty thousands (120,000) sahaba & appointment of Imam Ali as Master of believer men & women.

5. Dua of Holy Prophet (SAW) regarding Imam Ali.

6. Holy Prophet (SAW) pronounced Takbir "Allah-o-Akbar" upon receiving a revelation No. 5:3 about the completion of Allah's favor & choosing Islam as his religion.

"5:3........This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion......"

7. Congratulations by Hazrat Umar Bin Al-Khattab and biaht of Imam Ali(as) by him on Imam Ali's hand as well as all others.

That's the Islam Allah(swt) wants you to flollow...if you have it you made it, if don't then you are doomed.

Shi'ism is not a new religion. It begins with the beginning of Islam. The embodiment of the code of religion, that is, the seal of the Prophets (s.a.w.) planted the tree of Shi'ism together with Islam; with his own hands, he watered it and looked after it. The plant grew up to be a green tree which began blooming in the life-time of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.). But it had not yet born fruit, when the light of prophethood was put out.

We are not alone in advancing this claim. Even the eminent scholars from among Sunnis agree with us. For instance, 'Allamah Siyuti in his famous commentary "ad-Durru l-Manthur" Says in connection with God's words "Hum khayru l-bariyah" (they are the best of created beings) (Surah: The Clear Proof: Ayat 7):

"Ibn 'Asakir quotes Jabir ibn Adbillah as saying: "We were present in the company of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) when 'Ali (a.s.) came towards us. Seeing 'Ali (a.s.) the Prophet (s.a.w.) said: "I swear by God the Almighty, who is the Master of my life, that he ('Ali (a.s.)) and his Shi'ahs shall be successful on the day of judgement."

Ibn 'Adi reports from ibn 'Abbas that when the verse "Inna l-ladhina amanu wa 'amilu 's-salihat" (Verily these are those who believed and did good deeds) was revealed, the Holy Prophet (s-a.) said to 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.):
"It refers to you and your Shi'as; God will be pleased with them and they with Him on the Day of Judgement."

Ibn Mardawa'ih quotes Hadrat 'Ali (a.s.) himself as saying: "The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) said to me: 'Oh 'Ali, Did you not hear what God said: 'Inna 'l-ladhina amanu wa 'amilu 's-salihat ula'ika hum khayru 'l-bariyyah.' Verily it means you and your Shi'as. The promise between your people and me shall be fulfilled at the fountain of Kawthar; there, when all the nations shall be present to account for their actions, your people will be called forward, your faces, hands and feet shining with light'." These three hadith are to be found in as-Suyuti's "ad-Durr al-manthur".

Ibn Hajar has also reported some of these traditions in his as-Sawa'iq) from Darqutni- He quotes Umm Salamah as saying: "Oh Ali, You and your shi'as shall attain Paradise." Ibn Athir writes in connection with the word "qumh." that the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) said to Hadrat 'Ali (a-s.): "When people come into the presence of God, your Shi'as will be there content with God and He with them, and your enemies shall be subjected to God's wrath and their hands shall be tied to their necks." The Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) demonstrated this by putting his hands behind his neck, and said: "See, they shall be tied up in this way."

Probably this tradition has been reported by Ibn Hajar also in his as-Sawa'iq" and other 'ulama' have also reported it in different ways, showing that it is among the well known hadith.

In az-Zamakhshari's "Rabi' al-Abrar" the following statement of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) has been recorded:
"Oh 'Ali, On the Day of Judgement the skirt of God's mercy will be in my hand and my skirt will be in your hand and your skirt will beheld by your descendants and the Shi'as of your descendants will be hanging on to their skirt. Then you will see where we will be taken (i.e. Paradise)." For further satisfaction, it will be useful to study Ahmad ibn Hanbal's "al-Musnad" and an-NaSa'i's "Khasa'is" etc., which contain a number of such traditions.

These traditions show that the Prophet of Islam (s.a.w.) spoke a number of times about the Shi'as of 'Ali (a.s.) and pointed out that on the Day of Judgement they, in particular, shall be safe and successful, God being pleased with them and they with Him.

Everyone who believes that the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) was the embodiment of truthfulness and that the verse which begins "ma yantiqu 'an il-hawa . . . " (He does not speak of himself unless 'why' is revealed to him) refers to the Prophet himself, realise that these hadith must be true. Those people however who understand the above hadith as referring to all the companions of the prophet, have failed to recognise their real inner meaning.

We find that during the days of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) a group of outstanding companions was attached to Hadrat 'Ali (a.s.). Not only did every man in this group acknowledge the Holy Imam (a.s.) to be his spiritual leader, the real transmitter of the Holy Prophet's teachings, but they also acknowledged him as the true interpreter and commentator of the orders and secrets of the Prophet (s.a.w.). It is this group which is popularly known as the Shi'a. Even the lexicographers support this truth. If you refer to the famous dictionaries "an-Nihayah" and "Lisan ul-'Arab", you will find the meaning of "shi'a" as "one who loves and follows 'Ali (a.s.) and his descendants."

If however we are to understand that "shi'a" means any person who loves 'Ali (a.s.) or is not his enemy, then the use of this word would be inappropriate, because only loving, or at least, not being an enemy of him, does not mean that a person is a Shi'a; if however, he has the characteristic of persistent following and obedience then the word Shi'a would apply; this is crystal clear to those who have an understanding of Arabic and a notion of the relationship between word, meaning and context.

In view of these realities, it is unlikely that any sensible man, after studying the appropriate traditions, could draw the conclusion that the word shi'a means the Muslims in general, but will understand that it refers to a particular class which has a special attachment to 'Ali (a.s.).

Hopefully, after this explanation, no fair-minded man will try to conclude that the above quoted traditions do not prove the existence of a group who, because of their special relation with the master of the pious, 'Ali (a.s.) were superior to all the Muslims of that time, and who all expressed their love for him.

Personally, I do not agree with the assumption that the Caliphs, who could not accept this fact, consciously violated the words of the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.). It is possible many of them did not hear his edicts, or that those who heard them were unable to follow his directions.

Moreover, if the Statements of the Prophet (s.a.w.) in which he announced the rank and high position of Amiru 'l-Mu'minin (a.s.) and the Ahlu 'l-bayt (a.s.) are studied with an open mind, it will be seen that these reports do not only show merits of a general nature, but also contain clear indications of how to recognise the status and capability of the Leader of Shi'ism, and of how to contribute to the establishment and justness of that school of thought. The following traditions may be cited as examples.

"'Ali (a.s.) bears the same relationship to me as Harun (Aaron) had to Musa (Moses)".

"Oh 'Ali, only those with faith (iman) are your friends, and only the hypocrites (munafiqin) are your enemies."

"Oh people of my ummah. I leave behind two things worthy of great esteem - the Book of God and my progeny, my Ahlu 'l-bayt."

"According to the tradition of at-Tayr, the prophet made the following prayer: "Oh God. Send to me your most beloved slave", and immediately Ali entered his presence.

"Tomorrow I will give this standard to the man who loves God and His Prophet (s.a.w.) and whom God and His Prophet (s.a.w.) also love."

"'Ali is with the Truth and the Truth is with 'Ali."

These traditions are mostly taken from "Sahih al-Bukhari" and "Sahi'h al-Muslim", and there are thousands of such authentic reports. This small booklet cannot accommodate details of them. Those who are fond of research work can study the famous book "Abiqat al-Anwar" by Allama' Sayyid Hamid Husayn, which is ten times as voluminous as "Sahih al-Bukhari" and is a master-piece of research in the field of hadiths.

Taken from :
The Origin of Shi'tte Islam and It's Principles
(Asl ash-Shi'ah wa usuluha)
By: 'ALLAMAH SHAYKH MUHAMMAD HUSAYN
AL KASHIFU 'LGHITA'

Salaam & Ya Ali Madad TOD

Maashaallah!

I wish to at least ONCE call you Seyyed Kazmi because it sounds more respectful brother.

What on earth is wrong with Sayyidina al Hussaini???

I can't believe that someone with a name like that has gotten so brainwashed he's supporting Muawiah!!!

Thankyou once again for your clear evidences.

Well it's one thing we can say in support of Umar, he was the first to openely accept the Khilafah of Imam Ali AND pledge his Allegience to him, CONGRATULATING him at the same time.

It's a pity it was only for show but hey!At least there were 120 000 Sahabah to witness the event,

an event that the Prophet Mohammed himself had set up and was witness to - INFRONT OF THE MASSES.

AND this event has been recorded in their authentic books AND Quranic verses were revealed in relation to it.

There isn't much else there to say really, apart from the fact that if Yazid's dad was there he would have starting scheming plans in his head straight away.

Zikre Ali Ibaadat brother. Zikre Ali Ibaadat.

It is late, so I bid you good night.

May Allah offer you all success.

Aameen.

Wassalaam

lol ali ameem,
i didnt mean to sound out of my league with this whole topic...but i am only 18 and i am trying to pull my islamic education out of its misery and into the light...
i know i dont know big words and long hard sentences like you may but i have heart and indeed in what i believe is correct so im simply putting my points through.....
no need for the anger in literature.....
ok let me ask you sumthing.... who is the mehdi that you have and and a shia friend of mine was telling me that the mehdi has the real original copy of the quran... which was compiled by abu bakr as siddiq (may allah be please with him)
and what is the shia view to abu bakr as siddiq? is he a bad man?

and as for my blood, my blood is what is keeping me a sunni.... ameen

sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni oh..my my...what a blood...hahahaha

By the way here is the family tree of Abdul Qadir al Jilani...note Shia Imams in his family tree... so sounds like he was a Shia too. Then I wonder why you consider him as a Sunni?
(Allah knows the best)

"He is an exalted King, who is known as Ghaus-e-Azam radi Allahu anhu. He is Sayyid from both his parents. Hassani from his father and Hussaini from his mother."

Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa
(Salall Laahu Alaihi Wasallam)

Sayyidatun Nisa Fathima Sayyiduna Ali-e-murtaza
Shaheed-e-karbala Imam Husain Sayyiduna Imam Hassan

Sayyiduna Imam Zainul Abedeen Sayyid Hassan Mathni

Imam Muhammad Baaqir Sayyid Abdul Mahdh

Sayyiduna Imam Jaafar Saadiq Sayyid Moosa Al Jawn

Sayyiduna Imam Moosa Kaazi Sayyid Abdullah Thaani

Sayyiduna Sheikh Ali Raza Sayyid Moosa Thaani

Sayyid Aboo Ala'ud'deen Sayyid Dawood

Sayyid Kamaalud'deen Esa Sayyid Muhammad

Sayyid Abul Ataa Abdulla Sayyid Yahya Az Zaahid

Sheikh Sayyid Mahmood Sayyid Abi Abdillah

Sayyid Muhammad Sayyid Abu Saaleh Moosa (Father)

Sayyid Aboo Jamaal Sayyid Abdullah Soomee

Sayyida Ummul Khair Faatima (Mother)
Sayyiduna Muhiyyud'deen Abu Muhammad Adul Qaadir Jilaani

sorry for the mix up...text problem with site on above post...
In each line first name is from Mother's side and then second from father's side...treat it as two columns. Thnaks

Tod... undoubtablly i have shia imams in my blood aswell... does that make me a shia...i think not.... and as for him being a shia is not tru.... in his books it giv specific teachings against the shia and he took over the school of hanafi, which is a sunni school..so no he is not a shia...

and tod.......laugh at me as a person, plz do not laugh in the blood inside me....

at the blood inside me (typo)

wat the fuck is up with that sayedinna dude............
your a fucking desndant of your imamz to me on this websiyte ur biggest kafr her...
may allah make you a seat in hell..... your blood inside you reaps to become a shia so why dont you faggit....
its men like you i fucking hate i would give anything to hav u holy blood..... and you respect it by respekting those men who foght my maula......
are youuuuuuuu insane...... if i had the blood of my maula thn i would hate aisha' and mooawiya, aboo, omar and othmannnnnn......... but you ask for thereeeeeee fucking benefitzzz man i wsh i was thereee so i cud giv u a goooooood fuckkkkkkkkkkkking slaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap
ALLAH HU AKBAR

Salaam un alaykum,
Sayyidina al Hussaini

Abu Bakr Siddique, according to the Shia view was an ordinary person who used to hang around with Mohammed a lot.

He was not particularly brave, as the Quran testifies, he FEARED for his life in the cave with Mohammed, and ran away at a couple of battles.

(Infact some commentators say it wasn't him in the cave at all, it was someone else).

Regardless. He got scared easily.

I suppose that's not too serious for an ordinary person. It's forgivable by many standards so yeah, he was 'good' to a certain degree - he just wasn't good enough to be Caliph.

I mean, that's where the criticism really comes in.

Why didn't he turn up for Prophet Mohammed's funeral? Wasn't it Sunnat e Rasool to go to funerals? What earthly excuse was more important than not turning up for the funeral of the Last Prophet on earth?

Well actually he had a pretty good one. He decided that standing in for the democratic elections was more important.

That's where his reputation really starts to go down hill with the Shia's.

Oh yeah. And YOUR ancestral grandmother, Fatema tu Zahra wasn't too pleased with him either because he denied her the inheritence from her father, Mohammed.On top of everything else.

Fatema became ANGRY with him, as Al Bukhari clearly states and didn't speak to him up until the day that she died, which was six months after Mohammeds demise.

In doing so, it was clear that she refused to accept his position as legitimate Caliph, at the same time.

Al Bukhari also records that Imam Ali refused to pay allegience to Abu Bakr for the same period of six months.

All the people who had witnessed The Event of Ghadir, as Tod has explained it above, were aware that the Caliphate was clearly meant to have gone to Ali.

Abu bakr started persecuting these people who refused to legimately view his position as RULER OF THE MUSLIMS, so, in the end they were advised by Imam Ali to save their lives by keeping their mouths shut.

So, for as much as you'd like to protest that you're Sunni, the history of your own ancestry on both your mother's and father's side PROUDLY present the evidence that you are from the same stock that refused the Caliphate of Abu Bakr.

Well done my old boy. Well done.

History has founded you out and you are GUILTY of having supported and saved the lives of innocent Shia.

I'm starting to feel more closer to you now.

Can you imagine what it was like for the Seyyeds in those times. All the Muawiah and Abu Bakr supporters would have had some serious problems with you.

If Abdul Qaadir was giving Fatwas against the Shia then he was only oppressing once again, the same shia who supported his ancestral grandfather Imam Jaafer us Sadiq.

What you have to ask yourself is this.

People pride themselves in either being Sunni or Shia. They pride themselves further in the CONVERTS that come into the fold of their Madhhab.

Now it is clear that their are TWO groups of Seyyed.

One community is Shia (as in Iran & Iraq)
and the other is Sunni.

Did the Sunni Seyyeds convert to Shia

Or did the Shia Seyyeds convert to Sunni.

Once again, tell me which school of thought Imam Jaafer us Sadiq FOLLOWED

and ask yourselves why the Sunnis don't follow it.

It is because they will be known as Jaaferi's my friend.

Because they will be known as Jaaferi's.

May Allah bless the decisions of your earlier ancestors.

Ameen.

Wassalaam.

Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi

Dear infallible.

Your whole attitude puts me into great doubt, as to your identity of being a respectable Shia Muslim.

A little bit more than overboard wouldn't you agree, Sayyidina.

Can the joker please grow up. He must be finding it difficult to control his hormones.

wow... that was out of no where... i mean i can see where you are coming from but honestly... come on

now i am addicted ameem ali your right the five pillars of sunnism isnt in the quran in direct passage...but it is there
*SHAHADA= TESTIFY TO YOUR LORD
*SALAT= PRAYER
*ZAKAT= CHARITY
*FAST= SAWM
*PILGRIMAGE=HAJJ
sorry but this totally rules out the shia principle... by adding the 12 imams or 7 or how ever..... and there is nothing to be found in the quran for that principle.... sorry i had to go back to the "abc's" but with this in mind it doesnt allow for the shia's to move on the "d" if you get my drift"

salams from NEW ZEALAND

SALAM everyone online... just a quick question to anyone who knows the answer... was ali akbarRA the look alike of the prophetSAS and is it true hassanRA looked like the prophetSAS upper half including face and husseinRA looked like the prophetSAS lower half..??? salams

Salaam Sayyidina.

Recieved your last message off the 'most commented on' section. It seems not to be up in it's regular place.

Nonetheless I reply.

BELIEF IN THE MESSENGERS, my Friend IS an ADDITIONAL BASIC BELIEF of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaah and has been ESTABLISHED as such, alongside:

Tawhid ,Angels of Allah ,Books of Allah ,The day of Judgement ,Predestination or supremacy of Divine will , Life after death.

Belief in IMAMAT has also been established in the Quran through the following verse about The Prophet Ibrahim

He (Allah) said " verily I make you an IMAM of mankind." He (Ibrahim) said: And what of MY OFFSPRING?" He ( Allah said) "My covenant will not include the unjust."

Now the, the Quran doesn't say TWELVE Imams but it doesn't say the amount of MESSENGERS either.

We, The Shia are saying there are FIVE ROOTS AND TEN BRANCHES.

So if you want to look at it like that then yeah, there's a world of difference between the Sunni Pillars and the Shia tree.

But in our tree we've got the same five pillar points that your people believe in.

Besides. It's better to believe in more than less.

For example the Sunni's have completrely struck KHUMS off of their list, despite the fact that the Quran is stating that one fifth of yearly savings should be going to Mohammed's Family.
The same IMAMS descendeing from Ibrahim.

To us, this is completely unacceptable, infact HARAM, should you decide not to pay your Khums.

That's not additional either bro'. That's Quranic.

A point worth noting also is The Bible.

in Genesis 17;20 Allah addresses Ibrahim.

" I have heard your prayer for Ismail. I have blessed him and I will make him fruitful. I will multiply his descendents; HE SHALL BE FATHER OF TWELVE PRINCES, and I will raise a great nation from him."

So as well as in the Sunni Hadith's, The Shia Hadith's and The Quran (elusively), THE TWELVE IMAMS are also in the Bible.

When The Mehdi does arise therefore there will be those Christians who recognise him as The Twelfth Prince, whilst there will be moslems who'll be out to kill him.

I pray that you will be in his army, when he rises up on that day, with Jesus at his side.

To the future my friend. To the future.

Wassalaam.

hahahahahaha...I was laughing thinking of a person with blood transfusion and becoming a sunni. (your cote " my blood is what is keeping me a sunni") I don't mind paying you for a blood transfusion if you want. LOL... To become shia one require "tufeek" and change of heart. (heart transplants are rear)

I find it very funny that sunni hadith narator Abu Huraira accepted Islam only 3 years before Prophet's demise so he was Kafir for 22 years after Prophet(pbuh) announced himself as a Prpohet of Allah. I always wonder how can he write over 3000 hadiths...he had to be satying with Prophet(pbuh) 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
I also wonder if for sunnis Abu Huraira was so reliable then what would have Imam Ali(as) done that they had only 4 hadits from Imam Ali in Sahih Bukhari although he stayed along side with Prophet(pbuh) sice his childhood.
I feel pitty for sunnis that there Islam is based on Abu Huraira's some reliable but mostly unreliable hadiths.

I found shias have a very logical way to find out if hadith is right (Prophet's words) or false (not Prophet's words).
The key is if the hadith falls within Quranic context it is considered right otherwise false.
In other words if any Ayah (verse) of Quran reflects a notion of the said hadith then it might be considered right.
The reson is simple since Quran says that Prophet(pbuh) does not speak until wahi comes to him. (I will get and post the proper verse, Insha-Allah) So what ever he say or does is subject to Allah's wahi and in line with Quran.

Having said that, if you look at Shaih Bukhari there is a hadith that Prophet(pbuh) stood on a garbage heep and urinate (God forbid). Now if you have a Prophet doing an act that he himself tell people not to do then you can simply say to this hadith as totally wrong.

The problem is that most sunnis tend to bring the Prophet(pbuh) to their level as an ordinary person so that they could justify their unjust actions as valid. For a Shia person Prophet's(pbup) NOOR was created before Adam's creation was between clay and water. (there is a hadith from Him in this regard)
Also if you read Quran, when Allah ask Angels to name they could not although they were tought the names by Allah(swt) but Adam did. And if you go deeper in meanings of the verse then you will find out that Allah had asked Angels about living thigs (not objects). The arbic word used in the Ayah of quran is for "living things".
so my questions to all, What were those living thigs?

cheers...

Salaam Brothers and sisters.

Ali Akber, the son of Imam Hussain visually resembled The Prophet Mohammed.

This is the kind of thing that would have shocked those "Sahabi" in Yazid's army most of all - that amongst the army they were fighting against was a lad of striking resemblence to their own Prophet.

What blind and heartless hypocrisy.

The thing that the mainstream Muslims still try to avoid, is the physical and spiritual link between Muawiah, Yazid and Abu Sufyan.

It is the same mentality that attempts to seperate
Mohammed and his family.

So much brainwashing went on during Muawiah's rule.

There were people who didn't even know that Mohammed HAD a family.

May Allah Bless Mohammed and his family, In the same way he had blessed Ibraheem and his Family.

With IMAMAT my friends, With IMAMAT.

Wassalaam

tod.... pay for my blood transfusion if you want cause i doubt the blood would want to leave my body.
STOP saying "sunni's" believe that the prophet was a normal man...when i stated earlier on if you where paying attention that he was far from a normal man... and thats a sunni's belief anything other is wahabism that is not part of the sunni sect..

and also have you ever consider tha fact that the imams mightent be your imams... i mean it could be other aulias that sunnis believe in.... by the likes of hanafi, shaafi, ghous e azam, RA i mean these guys are still blood related to the prophetSAS... and there is 12 so techniqully ibrahim AS promise should be still fulfilled

i must say.... sayed ameem ali naqvi.....
at one stage in mylife i was so sure of becoming a shia... it wasnt funny....
it came to the point that the next day i wouldve went out and did it....
shia make alot of sense i must give them that... with there hadith and doctrines surely it all fits into play...
but that night before i did.. i was turned around in a spiritual beyond this earth experience which told me spefically what to do...
i understand where your coming from and the amount of knowledge you have is really good honestly at one part of mylife it did all make sense but now i cant do it ..... may allah show you as he showed me ameen...
im not telling you to become a sunni but just asking allah swt to give you hediaat and surely he knows best.... u seem like a really nice guy

hey ameem ali,

yeah good it says in the bible:in Genesis 17;20 Allah addresses Ibrahim.

" I have heard your prayer for Ismail. I have blessed him and I will make him fruitful. I will multiply his descendents; HE SHALL BE FATHER OF TWELVE PRINCES, and I will raise a great nation from him."

but remember once the quran was completed on earth that that was the only book to abide by thereof until judgement day... am i wrong i think not....

also this piece from the quran: He (Allah) said " verily I make you an IMAM of mankind." He (Ibrahim) said: And what of MY OFFSPRING?" He ( Allah said) "My covenant will not include the unjust."

this piece is clearly to ibrahim AS and his descendents... which indeed involves all the way to the house to the prophet sas... but if you include your 12 or 7 imams that openly then also it can include me or any other al hassana al husseini sayed.... the problem i think that shias need to know when to stop....
and being after 12 imams or 7 is i think abit late dont you think..... i doubt it.... but anyways thats all for now......

salams from NEW ZEALAND

Dear Sayyidinna

I’m a nice guy? Thanks for saying so.

Briefly, in reply to your latest message. Islamic life and experience does not stop at the Quran. Nobody can deny the Muslim Ummah has always and always will be desirous of scholars and scholarly writings in their attempts to further Islamic knowledge.

With regard to IMAMAT The answer to Ibraheem’s question from Allah was “My covenant does not include the unjust”. Although that answer certainly excludes the likes of Muawiah, I doubt very much that it has anything to DO with the likes of you or me.

There is a definite variation within the view of the Sunni scholars as to who these TWELVE IMAMS/Khalifah’s actually are and how they fit into the perception of Islamic history.

None of them however have defined the ‘Ghaus e Aazam / Pir Dastaghir’, of Baghdad as one of them.

Neither have they included the Sakhi Shahbaz Qalander of Sindh, or the Data Ganj Bakhsh of Lahore.

Jalal ud Din Suyuti tends to want to keep the option open. All of them seem to want to avoid the direct family lineages that are of noteably Shia patronage ie, Imam Hussein & Imam Ja’afer us Sadiq, whose ancestry you may note is much more elevated than the above mentioned “Saints” of God.

In attempting to avoid the obvious, Sunni scholars like ibn al Arabi, as recorded in the Sunan of Tirmidhi, have included, alongside Abu bakr, Umar & Uthman – Muawiah and YAZID(!) as their 6th and 7th Caliphs.

On the other hand we ARE aware of the fact that MANY individual Sunnis accept the same 12 Imams of the Shia ( alongside the concept of the Khilafah e Rashidun) , INCLUSIVELY with the idea that there is a living 12th Imam Al Mahdi.

I have personally witnessed literature, from none other than the Sufi Qadiriyyah order, stating the names of the same Twelve Imams that the Shia believe in.

OK. The book was a Pakistani production but I’m talking about Culturally accepted norms that have been existent in varying communities within the Indo Pak subcontinent for centuries.

Yes. Shi’aism did have it’s impact, possibly via the Seyyed Pirs coming from Persia and Iraq, and from the Iranian Safavids who ruled ‘Hindustan’ in their heyday.

My own family has a Shia /Sunni mixture. My brother in law who is originaly from Pakistan, and has converted to Shi’aism, has explained much about what is seen to be culturally accepted. According to him, nobody but Wahabbi’s actually LIKE Muawiah.I put him to question on it. He said you won’t find ANYBODY naming their children after him.

YES. We CAN go into the authentic books of the Sunni’s and prove their belief is that Mohammed is NORMAL. But it doesn’t matter what the books say, even if they ARE authentic, the majority of Sunni muslims from these areas will decide to fight you tooth and nail should you try to even think of proving it.

I met a Bosnian Muslim from Cambridge. He did some research hear in the UK, was interested in the politcs of Lebanon, and converted to the Shia 12er Madhhab. He told me that when it happened, he phoned his dad back in Bosnia – openely professing to him his newly found faith in the 12 Imams. The reply that he got back from his father was “Well, we believe in the 12 Imams as well!” The response he got from his son was “WELL WHY DIDN’T YOU EVER TELL ME ABOUT THEM!”

So my friend Sayyidna. You have had a close scrape with the Twelvers and came back out alive. Good for you. At the tender age of 18 I pray that Allah gives you the opportunity in life to experience much, much more then you already have done, and that you travel to and see the places that are important to you.

There is much more that I would’ve liked to talk to you about. The Urs of these ‘Holy Saints’ and why their deaths are ‘celebrated’ instead of mourned for example.

If you ARE ever in Iraq for the death anniversary of Pir Abdul Qadir al Jilaani, then I would ask of you only one thing whilst at his shrine. Pray that you are able to visit the the Shrine of his own ancestral cousin, the 7th Imam Musa e Kazim, on HIS death anniversary also, within the same Fabled yet troubled city of Baghdad.

All the best.

Wassalaam

Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi

PS. Another point to note.

All the major Prophets leading upto the Prophet Jesus were from the blood of Issac, not Ismaeel.

In relation to The Holy Quran:

He (Allah) said " verily I make you an IMAM of mankind." He (Ibrahim) said: And what of MY OFFSPRING?" He ( Allah) said "My covenant will not include the unjust."

If this verse is in direct corrolation to the promise of Mohammed then we must consider how many, and which Prophets came inbetween Ismaeel and The Last Prophet of God.

However, to the SHIA Imamat in the Quranic sense is reserved for the MAJOR prophets per se AND the Purified household of Mohammed.

It is not right to therefore, attribute the status of IMAM ,in the Quranic sense, to the Jurists Malik, Hanafi etc when the evidence and status of THE GREATER personalities of HASSAN & HUSSEIN for example, are clearly evident within the same book.

Also, as a FUNDAMENTAL within the belief of the Shia it is BELIEF IN IMAMAT that is expressed, and this in itself does not specificaly indicate the Number Twelve.

Wassalaam

Well said Ali Ameem Naqvi...LOL
I wonder and I wonder and I wonder...hahaha
I bet when Allah said that He has placed a seal on there heart... he may have some people in ind who will see all the evidence and deny the fects.

btw sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni your story seems to be interesting...can you eloborate on that night when you as you say "i was turned around in a spiritual beyond this earth experience which told me spefically what to do..."

Cheers

Salaam Tod

Yeah. Everybody has their own story and it would be nice to know Sayyidina's.

I would just like to reiterate that you made some very valid points also.

There had been a lot of prejudice when collecting hadith from the household members of Mohammed, that seems clear.

How obvious is the bias? Imam Ali's all time enemy Aisha, gets to narrate thousands of Hadith to be collected in Al Bukhari, whilst Bukhari himself decides to choose only four from Imam Ali.

Thank God for Nahjul Balagha, Dua e Kumayl, Hadith e Kisa and Sahifah Sajjaadiyyah.

We have got so much literature and sayings from our Imams, and each one of them knew traditions passed down from the Holy Prophet directly, from Imam to Imam, that nobody else had any prior knowledge to.

This is another, amazing fact of common sense and truth, it is always 'The Family' that know the family secrets, better than anybody else.

If only the people stopped to think, they could learn and find out so much.

We must pray for them Tod.
We must pray for them.

Wassalaam.

well do you believe in prophetic dreams???

many shias laugh wen i tell them my story.... and the events that took place that night...

i wouldve been a shiatte by now if it wasnt for this....

Salaam Seyyidinna

I ask out of interest my friend. If it is personal to you then I would not expect you to say anything in detail. None of this is meant to be a laughing matter.You have ascertained your position as a Sunni Muslim and have some reasonable views.Although it is hoped/prayed for,it is not expected of you to become 'shiatte'.

Wassalaam

Did any one see the BBC documentary on Ghengis Khan?

Just an script of history....LOL

Ali's army
When war between Ali and Muawiyah became inevitable, preparations for a show down were made by both the sides. Ali managed to raise an army 90,000 strong. It included men from Kufa, Iraq, Basra and Madina. Ali made Malik Ashtar the Commander-in-Chief of his forces. The army was divided into a number of commands and each command had its own commander.

In the correspondence that was exchanged between the two sides, option was given to Ali to lead the force to Syria or let the Syrian forces come to Iraq Ali opted to lead his forces to Syria. In March 657, Ali set out from Kufa at the head of his army. From Rufa the army proceeded to Madina. Here more troops joined the army of Ali. From Madina Ali set out for Syria. His plan was to march through Upper Mesopotamia and invade Syria from the north. The advance guard of the army advanced along the western bank of the Euphrates. The main army under Ali advanced up to the Tigris, and thereafter entered the Mesopotamian desert.

March through the desert
The march of the army through the desert was a great ordeal. The long trek across the desert exhausted the water supplies at the disposal of the troops, and the absence of water became an acute problem. Ali sent his scouts to inquire of the tribesmen in the desert whether there were any wells or springs in the neighborhood which could supply water to the troops. The tribesmen said that there were no wells or spring in the neighborhood.

Ali had heard that some centuries ago the Israeli patriarchs had dug wells in the desert, and he hoped to be able to find out these ancient sites. The scouts who contacted the tribes in the desert were not able to get any clue of a spring or a well in the desert. One of the scouts, however, brought back with him an old Christian hermit who said that there was indeed a cistern in the neighborhood in the past, but it had gone dry. The hermit added that according to old legends, a hidden well existed somewhere in the neighborhood, and its mouth was covered with an enormous stone, but no one knew about the actual site of the legendary well. He observed that according to popular belief no one could locate the hidden well, except a prophet or the representative of a prophet.

Miracle of the well
Ali himself proceeded on a survey of the desert. At one place Ali saw a huge stone, and he asked his men to dig at that site. Miraculously a well was discovered at the site the water supply whereof was more than enough for the needs of the troops. As the ancient well was discovered, the Christian hermit was thrilled at the miracle. Addressing Ali he said that verily he was the representative of the prophet about whose advent the scriptures had predicted. He hastened to accept Islam at the hands of Ali. He presented to Ali an old parchment belonging to Simon, a companion of Jesus Christ on which was recorded a prophesy about the advent of the last prophet. The parchment also foretold of the lifting of the stone of the well by a representative of the last prophet.

The discovery of the source of water in the desert came as a matter of great relief to the troops of Ali. It raised their morale and fortified them with the faith they were fighting for the vindication of the truth. The news of the recovery of the well in the desert impressed the tribes in the neighborhood and they joined Ali in the war against Muawiyah.

May things people don't know about Muawiyah...

"Muawiyiah belonged to the Umayyad section of the Quraish of Makkah. Muawiyah and the Holy Prophet had Abd Manaf as their common ancestor. The Holy Prophet was the son of Abdullah who was the son of Abdul Muttalib, who was the son of Hashim who was the son of Abd Manaf. Muawiyah was the son of Abu Sufiyan, who was the son of Harb, who was the son of Umayyah, who was the son of Abd Shams, who was the son Abd Manaf. Hashim and Abd Shams were the two sons of Abd Manaf. The Holy Prophet was a descendant of Hashim while Muawiyah was a descendant of Abd Shams. Umayyah the son of Abd Shams was an important man of the line, and his descendants came to be known after him as the Umayyads."

"Abu Sufiyan the father of Muawiyah was a Quraish magnate. When the Holy Prophet declared his mission, Abu Sufiyan was conspicuous for his hostility to the Holy Prophet and Islam. He led the Quraish army against the Muslims in the battles of Uhud and the Trench. Muawiyah's mother was the atrocious woman who made necklaces and bracelets of the ears and noses of the Muslims slain at Uhud. She ripped the dead body of Hamza, an uncle of the Holy Prophet, martyred at Uhud, took out the liver and put her teeth in it."

thanks for that tod,, all i can say to muawiya RA mother is, may allah increase her pain......

man this story makes me cry so much it so sad and to think this is my ancestral grand mother and grandfather i cant stop the tears...

One morning, early in the month of Ramadan, just less than five month after her noble father had passed away, Fatimah woke up looking unusually happy and full of mirth. In the afternoon of that day, it is said that she called Salma bint Umays who was loo king after her. She asked for some water and had a bath. She then put on new clothes and perfumed herself. She then asked Salma to put her bed in the courtyard of the house. With her face looking to the heavens above, she asked for her husband Ali.

He was taken aback when he saw her lying in the middle of the courtyard and asked her what was wrong. She smiled and said: "I have an appointment today with the Messenger of God."

Ali cried and she tried to console him. She told him to look after their sons al-Hasan and al-Husayn and advised that she should be buried without ceremony. She gazed upwards again, then closed her eyes and surrendered her soul to the Mighty Creator.

may allah increase there peace........

Hazrat Abu Huraira reported from the Messenger of Allah said that Prophets ruled over the children of Israel, whenever a Prophet died another Prophet succeeded him but there will be no Prophet after me, there will soon be Caliphs and they will number many. They asked “What then do you order us” He said “Fulfill allegiance to the first and then the first, give them their dues Verily Allah will ask them about what he entrusted them with”.

M.H. shakir writers:
Fatimah, the only daughter of the Holy prophet of Islam, was born I Mecca on 20 Th. Jumada ' th - thaniyah 18 BH. The good and noble lady Khadijah and the apostle of Allah bestowed all their natural love, care and devotion on their lovable and only child Fatimah, who in her turn was extremely fond of her parents. The princess of the House of the Prophet, was very intelligent, accomplished and cheerful. Her sermons, poems and sayings serve, as an index to her strength of character and nobility of mind. Her virtues gained her the title " Our Lady of light. she was tall, slender and endowed with great beauty, which caused her to be called " az - Zahra' " ( the Lady of Light). she was called az - Zahra' because her light used to shine among those in Heaven. After arriving in Medina, she was married to ` Ali , in the first year hijrah, and she gave birth to three sons and two daughters. Her children, Hasan, Husayn, Zaynab and umm kul-thum. are well - known for their piety , goodness and generosity Their strength of chracter and actions changed the course of history. The Holy Prophet said, " Fatimah is a peace of my heart". He would go out to receive his doughtier whenever she come from her husband's house.

Every morning on his way to the Mosque, he would pass by Fatimah's house and say: " as-salamu ` alaykum ya ahlul-Bayti`n-nubuwwah wa ma` dani ` r - risala " ( peace be on you O the Household of prophet hood and the source of Messengership) Fatimah is famous and acknowledged as the " sayyidatu 'n-nisa'i ' l-alamin " ( Leader of all the women of the world for all times ) because the Prophethood of Muhammad would not have been everlasting without her. The Prophet is the perfect example for men, but could not be so for women. For all the verses revealed in the Holy Qur'an for women, Fatimah is the perfect model, who translated every year into action. In her lifetime, she was a complete woman, being Daughter, wife and Mother at the some time.

Muhammad during his lifetime, gave Fatimah a gift of very extensive farm lands, famous as Fadak, which were documented in her name, as her absolute personal property. An heiress to the remainder of her mother`s wealth, a princess who was the only daughter of the holy prophet who was also a ruler, a lady whose husband was the conqueror of Arab tribes and second only to her father in and position, Fatimah could have led a luxurious life. But in spite of her wealth and possessions, she worked, dressed, ate and lived very simply . she was very generous; and none who come to her door, when away empty handed. Many times she gave away her all and herself went without food. As a daughter, she loved her parents so much , that she won their love and regard to such and extent that the Holy prophet used to rise, whenever she come near him As a wife, she was very devoted.

She never asked ` Ali for anything in her whole life. As a mother , she cared for and brought up wonderful children; they have lift their marks on the face of the world , which time will not be able to eraze. The death of the Apostle, affected her very much and she was very sad and grief- striken and wept her heart out crying all the time. unfortunately, after the death of the prophet, the government confiscated her famous land of Fadak and gave it to the state. Fatimah was pushed behind her him door ( when they attacked the house of ` Ali and took him to force him accept the caliphate of Abu Baker), so that the child , she was carrying was hurt and the baby boy Muhsin was still born.

Her house was set on fire by the Government. The tragedy of her father's death and the unkindness of her fathers`s followers, were too much for the good , gently and sensitive lady and she breathed her last on 14 Th. Jumada ` l - ula 11 AH, exactly seventy - five days after the death of her father, the Holy prophet of Islam. Fatimah died in the prime of her life at the age of eighteen, and was buried in jannatu 'l-Baqi ` Medina.

sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni
to answer your quote "Hazrat Abu Huraira reported from the Messenger of Allah said that Prophets ruled over the children of Israel, whenever a Prophet died another Prophet succeeded him but there will be no Prophet after me, there will soon be Caliphs and they will number many. They asked “What then do you order us” He said “Fulfill allegiance to the first and then the first, give them their dues Verily Allah will ask them about what he entrusted them with”.

ANSWER: (sorry it's abit long)

Allah (swt) tells us in the Qur'an, that the sole reason for creating Man and Jinn is so that they worship Him. We are here to worship Allah (swt), who also says in the Qur'an "Fear Allah and find a wasila to him (5:35)".

The definition of wasila is 'a means of approach', so worship is not direct - it is attained via a means of approach, a guide. Remember Allah (swt) is not telling you to create a wasila, he is telling you to find it. So it exists, it is down to you to find it. For mankind that wasila can only be through a fellow human being, we have no contact with jinns' and therefore they cannot act as a wasila.

Angels likewise cannot act as a wasila to Allah (swt) as they have no contact with us until the time of death. The wasila will have to be a human being, because the earth is inhabited by humans and as Allah (swt) says when explaining the appointment of Prophets "If there were angels on the earth I would send them an angel as a Prophet from heaven (Surat al Isra verse 95)."

It is on this premise that we argue that the guide for society, following the departure of the Seal of all Prophets, must be human. At the same time we are fully aware that men possess defects and weaknesses and are capable to err. The wasila we need for true guidance will therefore have to be the 'perfect individual' who will not err, who you can put your faith in, which will act as source of guidance in everything that you do.

We know that there is a wasila, and that there is a duty to recognise our Imam of our time. Clearly, these two must be interlinked, the Imam is the authorised guide who will act as the wasila to Allah (swt), but 'do we have any clear signposts which will help us to recognise these Imams'? Well what better guide is there than the hadith of the Prophet (saaws): "The religion will continue to be established till the hour comes as there are twelve Caliphs over them, everyone of them coming from the Quraish".
Mishkat al Masabih: (Vol 4 p 576), Hadith 5

"The Islamic religion will continue, until the hour has been established, or you have been ruled over by 12 Caliphs, all of them being from Quraish"
Sahih Muslim, hadith number 4483, English translation by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui

Now just ponder over these ahadith The Islamic religion will continue - the Muslims can suffer oppression, go through hardships etc. but Islam will remain intact, with all it's conditions, qualities and virtues as long as there exist these 12 Khalifa's. Think carefully, deen is attached to the ruling of 12 Khalifa's. The number 12 is of significance here, it can not apply to political leadership, Jalaladeen Suyuti in Tarikh ul Khulufa recounts that there were 4 Rightly guides khalifas', 14 khalifas' from Banu Ummayah and 49 Khalifas' from the Banu Abbasids.

The number 12 does not fit anywhere here, because the Prophet (saaws) was not talking about leaders appointed by men. The Prophet (saaws) was referring to absolute religious leadership, through which deen can be identified, it started at Ghadhir Khumm when the Prophet (saaws) declared before a gathering of 124,000 Sahaba "Of whomsoever I am Maula (Master) Ali is his Maula".

It was here that the succession to Prophethood, Imamate was declared. What is crucial is the verse which descended following the sermon declaring Ali (as)'s Wilayat.

"Today, I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that you religion be Islam" (Quran 5:3).

This verse makes it clear Allah (swt) did not declare the perfection of religion, the completion of his bounties and his satisfaction until Hadhrath Ali (as)'s Imamate was formally declared at the end of the Prophetic mission.

Recognition of Islam is through these 12 Khalifa's. Khalifa means, "to follow" they are the Prophet (saaws)'s khalifas' but they are our Imams for they lead us. These are the 12 Imams the Prophet (saaws)'s authorised representatives.
Remember this, because authorised representatives exist in this world and the next, for Hadhrath Abu Bakr said that "No one will be able to cross the Sirat (Path) leading to Heaven on the Day of Judgement unless he gets the stamp of Ali".
Al Sawaiqh al Muhriqa, by Ahmad Ibn Hajar al Makki, page 126 (A book written against the Shi'a)

Now lets us take a look at the two routes being adopted to reach the Deen.

Sharra Fiqa Akbar by Mulla 'Ali Qari is the Hanafi Book of aqaid. On the very first page it is stated that the book sets out the aqeedah of Ahl'ul Sunnah wa al Jamaah. Everything set out in this book is the aqeedah of Hanafi Sunni Muslims. Mulla Ali Qari sets out who the 12 khalifas are:

1. Abu Bakr
2. Umar
3. Uthman
4. Ali
5. Mu'awiya
6. Yazid bin Mu'awiya
7. Abdul Malik bin Marwan
8. Walid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
9. Sulayman bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
10.Umar bin Abdul Aziz
11.Yazid bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan
12.Hasham bin Abdul Malik bin Marwan

Taken from Sharra Fiqa Akbar, by Mulla Ali Qari, p 176 (publishers Muhammad Saeed and son, Qur'an Muhalla)

This was one route, now lets have a look at the other path - the path of the Ahlul Bayt e Muhammad (saww)

1.Imam Abul-Hasan Ali ibn e Abi Talib (al-Murtaza) (as)

2.Imam Abu Muhammad al-Hassan (al Mujtaba) (as)

3.Imam Abu Abdallah al-Hussain bin Ali (Sayyid al-Shuhada) (as)

4.Imam Abu Muhammad Ali bin al-Hussain (Zainul-'Abideen) (as)

5.Imam Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali (al-Baqir) (as)

6.Imam Abu Abdallah Ja'far bin Muhammad (al-Sadiq) (as)

7.Imam Abu Ibrahim Musa bin Ja'far (al-Kazim) (as)

8.Imam Abu al-Hasan Ali bin Musa (al-Reza) (as)

9.Imam Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Ali (Taqi al-Jawaad) (as)

10.Imam Abul-Hasan Ali bin Muhammad al-Hadi al-Naqi(as)

11/Imam Abu Muhammad al-Hasan bin Ali (al-Askari) (as)

12.Imam Abul-Qasim Muhammad bin al-Hasan (al-Mahdi) (as)

It is incumbent that we search for that wasila through which deen can be recognised. Allah (swt) tells us in his glorious book "Guide us to the right path, the path of those you have favoured" (1:6-7) and your priority should be to seek those persons on the right path who will likewise guide you to it. This point can not be ignored; particularly when Rasulullah (saaws) warned that the Ummah would be divided in to 73 sects and that only one would be saved.

At the same time the Prophet (saaws) told us which party would be saved, when he said "I am leaving amongst you two things, the Qur'an and my Ahlulbayt, if you follow them you will never go astray".
1. Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matba`at Muhammad `Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123

2. al­'Imam al-Hafiz Abu `Abd Allah al­Hakim al­Naysaburi, al­Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn [Dar al­Ma`rifah li al­Tiba`ah wa al­Nashr: Beirut), vol. iii, pp. 109-110

The Prophet recounted this tradition to his Sahaba, which proves the Sahaba could go astray if they turned away from these two sources of guidance. When the Christians of Najran came to debate with the Prophet (saaws) he first presented Islam as a theory via verses from the Qur'an, when the challenge of mubahila was made to prove which Deen is correct, the Prophet (saaws) took with him those who presented Islam on a complete practical level, he took his Ahlulbayt and no one else.

"Recognition of the family of Muhammad is freedom from the Fire. Love of the family of Muhammad is crossing over the Sirat. Friendship for the family of Muhammad is safety from the fire".
1. Ash-Shifa, page 142 by Qadi Iyad, (d.544 Hijri) English translation by Aisha Bewley, Madinah Press 1991.

2. Yanabi al-Mawaddah, al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, section 65, p370

Muslims are dependent on Islam while Islam is dependent on the Ahlulbayt, that is why when a prominent sahabi advised Imam Hussain (as) to pledge allegiance to Yazid the reply from the Imam was "by my doing so do you think Islam will remain on the earth?".

It is the Party which has taken hold of both the Qur'an the Ahlulbayt who are on the right path, for they have grasped the Qur'an which sets out deen and the Imams from Ahlulbayt who are walking commentaries of deen, through which Islam can be recognised.

hold on did YAZID(fucking asswipe) live to be khalif.... i thought he was killed before he could get the bait'e....
and i thought fatima died at the age of 28...
all these websites are telling me diffent info...

CHEERS
new zealand

Salaam Sayyidinna.

It really is worth considering some of the points that Tod is talking about.

First of all you must pay attention to where he is quoting his information from, ie, which books and their STANDING within Sunni Hadith/Historical literature.

For instance when we hear the name of Jalal ud din Suyuti we MUST realise that this is a historian of great worth and reliability whose book on The Khilafah e Rashidun is world famous.

Also when we hear of Sahih al Bukhari and Sahih al Muslim, these are undoubtedly considered for the Sunni's to be the HIGH POINT of authenticated Hadith literature.

Most of all, you may note that Sahih al Bukhari is considered to be EVEN MORE Authentic than Sahih al Muslim.We can see primarily why that may be the case, as me and Tod had both stated earlier; there are ONLY FOUR hadith related in it from Imam Ali.

Once again, despite this obvious bias, the truth of certain affairs that happened during the life of and after the demise of Mohammed are made apparrent.

Amongst all of this history, some of which clearly manages to contradict itself, we also have the Hadith narrated from the Shia sources, of which the verified and authenticated usually attach themselves to anyone of the infallibly considered Imams.

The historical picture will always make itself clearer once you include the view of the parties whom The Mainstream historians have intentially censured.

It was no accident that our ancestral Grandmother Fatima tu Zahra died when she was at the tender age of eighteen, as some traditions state. The fact that she was stricken with grief up until the period of her death was not just for the fact that her father had passed away.

Indeed if Ayesha had loved her husband as much then shouldn't the same thing have happened to her?

There WAS infact a PRESSURE GROUP formed so that Imam Ali would publicly accept the allegience of the VOTED IN Caliph Abu Bakr. None other than Umar was a key party to the tactics involved, and, as you can imagine Fatema tu Zahra sided with her husband all the way.

She would have understood the situation as such: Her husband, the clear successor to her fathers legacy has had the Caliphate snatched from him. Now, the mission that Mohammed had worked so hard to forge into perfection, via his announcement that Ali had been made Mawla of Muslims, at the valley of Ghadir, was all but being torn apart and trampled upon.

How could it have been just herself that she was crying for? Like all the great saints and prophets she cried for the Muslim Ummah. Was she not aware that now, the challenge against her husbands Divine Right to the Khilaafat would eventually end in civil war and bloodshed?

Was she not aware, that her own stepmother Ayesha was now a living threat to the peaceful existence of her husband and her children?

Had she not been informed by Mohammed, that her own son Hussein was to be eventually slaughtered by the army of Abu Sufyaan's Grandson?

This CONSPIRACY to take the leadership of Mohammed under the Guise of a man made Khilaafat, is by no means an event to be considered lightly.We ask the Muslim Ummah to open their eyes, to THE CAUSE AND EFFECT that led to the persecution of Imam Ali through to his own son Imam Hussein.

How is it possible to say Muawiah has no link with his son Yazid OR his actions when BOTH parties are guilty of having waged war against The Ahlul Bayt?!

Imam Ja'afer us Sadiq spoke in Metaphore when he stated that ' Imam Hussein's head was not cut off at Karbala, It was cut off at the Saqifah ', and The Saqifah was the tent under which Abu Bakr was fraudulently elected.

And THAT was the beginning of Fatema tu Zahra's son's persecution.

Sunni's are shocked when they find out how Fatema tu Zahra really died. All of a sudden the rift between Sunni and Shia becomes so wide that a person has no choice but to jump in either one ship or the other.

Umar, in a push to to gain allegiance from both Fatema and Ali, FOR Abu Bakr, surrounded the house of Fatema tu Zahra with a group of men and threatened to burn the house, should they have refused to comply.

Their non compliance resulted in the front door being set on fire and it being barged into by Umar and his men with a wooden ram.

Fatema had been standing directly behind the door, and when this happened, some traditions state that the door fell on her.

She was pregnant at the time with her unborn child, already named Mohsen.The attack resulted in her immediate miscarraige which further led to her death some days later.

Other traditions state that Fatema was standing by the side of the door against the wall. Upon forced entrance Umar knowingly furthered his attack by attempting to crush Fatema between the door and the wall; resulting in the miscarraige of her child, furthering onto her own death.

Horrificaly enough, within The Shia Hadiths it is Umar himself who narrates the incident, describing how he knowingly pushed into, and crushed the body and bones of the Holy mother of Hussein.

Now, understand that certain tribespeople were only interested in converting to Islam for their own personal and financial gain.Why, of all the possibly aspired for positions, should PROPHETHOOD have fallen into the hands of Bani Hashim???

Others felt they would be damned to see the day when BOTH PROPHETHOOD and POLITICAL LEADERSHIP fell into the hands of Mohammed's family; thinking probably, 'Why should it?!We want OUR fair share as well '!

The very existence of the Ahlul Bayt has proved to be a consistent threat to ALL these men made Caliphs throughout the lives of all the Imams. These KINGS lived in unsecurity and fear of political dissent, a dissent that they themselves were responsible for due to the illigitemacy of their own seat.

Muawiah, the beloved of the Syrian Qaum, before he laid his own cursed body to rest, in writing confirmed his own son Yazid to take the Khilaafat after him.

Who WAS Muawiah? The cousin of the third Sunni Khalifah Uthman.

How did he manage to be governer of All of Syria?

Uthman gave him the Governership.

Everybody who loved Uthman therefore loved Muawiah.

So much so that even if it came to fighting The Father of Al Hussein, they were prepared to do it.

And who loved Yazid?

Any one who loved Muawiah also loved Yazid.

How do we know this?

When the beloved Muawiah gave over his Khilaafat to his beloved son, there was no sound of objection to be heard.

The Muslim Ummah fell behind the ranks of Yazid's army in Karbala on the tenth of Muharram - The lovers of Muawiah, the lovers of Uthman.

All had forgotten, that the HUSSEIN they were about to fight was the same Hussein whom they asked Allah to bless in their five daily prayers.

How distant the memory of Mohammed now, but your hearts awaken when you see the resemblance of your Prophet in the face of Ali Akbar, son of Al Hussein.

He has a sword in his hand and he is ready to fight you. This grandchild of Fatema tu Zahra.

This grandchild of Fatema tu Zahra.

When Fatema tu Zahra died Imam Ali went to a well and wept all his tears into it.

And if you feel like crying again, my friend Seyyidina, then cry for the pain that Imam Ali held in his heart - and for the children of Zahra, to whom The System of Khilafat trampled, under horses hooves.

Wassalaam

Ali Ameem!! May Allah give you reward here and here after for standing up with zeal to tell the world the rights of the Ahlul Bayt and tell their side of the story to lift the curtains from the truth. Aameen

the events that took place that night where as so..... i tell you brothers tod and ali ameem....

that day i was greatly deprest finally weak and alone.... feeling that allah swt was so far away from me because i was a sunni and all these times my prayers were not being answered....

a month prior to this i was a fulltime model starting from the year before.... i had a dream a beautiful man who i called muhammed SAS approached me and said "o grandchild allah has indeed given you beauty do not use it in vein as Yusuf AS did not" i started crying and balling my eyes because of the embarasment that i had done to allah and his Habib SAS....
Straight away i rang my agents told that i could not do it anymore, they where disappointed but aslong as allahs and my habib was happy i could not care....
in my eyes a new light shun one thirsty for islam... so i read, talkd and heard stuff from many people and it came down to the fact the shiazm was taking over me.....
a month had passed and it was time for me to accept my fate and become a shia the very next day....
i went to bed scared and kinda happy of what the new day would bring me......
that very night i slept and my dream occured...
i was on a road by myself a dark and scary road mist clotted and gusty winds blowing....
and suddenly a light beamed from the end and drawed nearer... it was a golden chariot with a horse men and a massive carrier on the back....
i couldnt wreckognize the horsemen all i remember he was extremely goodlooking and his feet was touching the ground whilst he was sitting on the horse...
and out of the carriage came 2 women extremely beautiful.... and 5 men also extremely good looking i stared at each man for 15 mins i think just looking at there beauty..
anyways imediately i wreckognised prophet SAS...
as he was the most beautifullest... and he kissed my lips and hugged me...
he then said "o grandchild this is also your grandfather"... i looked to that man... and prophet SAS said introduce yourself....
the man replied "I am Ali, your grandfather, imediately i hugged him and kissed his forehead... then i couldnt stop complementing his muscular arms.....( THEY WHERE HUGE)
then Prophet SAS said and these are my great friends... then he said to then introduce yourself friends... they each said in turn there names.. we are beloved friends of your and your grandfathers... abu, umar, uthman...
i was so happy i could stop crying in the dream... even though they started to wipe my tears they would still fall....
suddenly i stopped and faced Prophet SAS...and said to him "wait i have to ask you something.."
he said " anything Grandchild"...
i felt ashamed about wat i was wanting to ask him and he replyied " i have ghaibii ilum"..which in hindi means knowledge of the unseen... i giggled and then asked him ( THE NEXT IS A SERIES OF QUESTIONS I ASKED THE PROPHET SAS... QUESTION FROM ME REPLY FROM PROPHET SAS..."
"was muawiya a bad man" he replied " why would he be"
-
"did aisha hate ali" he replied "why would she"
-
is ali a shia" he replied " why would he be"
-
i then asked "does ali support the shia" he replied " he is the truth why would he lie"
-
i stopped and looked at ali embarrassed to ask that question from the prophet SAS.... and ali said to me " o grandchild i gave my allegiance to abu bakr why dont they" i said "i do not grandfather"...
-
ali then said "who can hate the man first promised heaven"... i said "haque"...
-
then i turned to the prophet sas... and he said to me " why do you want to leave us" i said i dont...
he then replied " if you do what your going to do tomorrow you will leave me, and all my friends and most importantly my love, your allah"
i felt so embarrased.. but he kissed me and it cheered me up...
he said "go then go leave me my child go leave me but always remember i will always love you"...
suddenly iwoke from the sleep and had pains in my heart i coudnlt breath, stand, sit nothing i was virtually paralised....
then i went back to sleep because i wasnt able to do anything....
a dream came back and my body went back to normal....
i saw the prophet SAS again and what a beautiful man he is MASHA ALLAH.....
he said "o grand child if you do wat you are going to do tomorrow my blood inside you will curdle... do you want my blood to curdle grand child...
i said " by allah no" and then he said " i trust you, you will not do what you will do tomorrow" i said " HAQUE" he kissed me held me and said i am always with you.........trust your blood....

i am sorry if this hurt any shia out there.. but its wat i saw.. if you dont believe me may allah forgive you.... this is why i am not what i wanted to do that day....
ameen

can anyone tell me who the horse rider was???
and the 2 ladyz was fatima RA & aisha RA...
I recognised them as soon as they looked at me....

salams from new zealand

My dear friend Sayyidinna

Assalam un Alaykum

Thankyou for sharing this dream with us, your Seyyed brothers. I must admit although some would find it hard to believe, it does seem to be full of heart.

This did come about to you also at a crucial point in your life when you had much on your mind.

Allah blessed you for having seen The Prophet in your dream, our ancestral grandfather.

I am not a dream analyst so I am not about to try and analyse what you saw, or heard, or spoke about in that detailed account, nor shall I make excuses for what you experienced.

I will say however that dreams are a result of what we experience in our day to day lives and reflect those things for which we are already informed about or have seen/heard previously.

They also reflect our subconscious.

The intimate contact and conversation you had with the Prophet of God seems amazing.

the fact that he also kissed you AND hugged you, TWICE is out of this world.

One would imagine that only Awliah had experiences such as this.

However, you, a good looking model, dreamt of beautiful looking people.

How blessed is that.

But

without trying to make YOU angry either,
it is possible that within this there may have been some deception.

You say

then I asked "does ali support the shia" he replied " he is the truth why would he lie".

We can either assume from this that Ali DOES support the Shia or he DOESN'T.

I would like to assume that it means he does.

Pure factual history states on both the Sunni and the Shia sides, that THE SHIA requested for Imam Husseins support, to lead an Army to fight Muawiah's son.

Imam Hussein FAMOUSLY responded to this request when the rest of the muslim Ummah sat happy under the governance of Yazid.

It is one of the few events within the popular Sunni view of history whereby THE SHIA are recognised by THE SUNNIS as having EXISTED.

And Imam Hussein is helping THEM.

This was despite the fact that Umar's son was advising Imam Hussein NOT to fight, on the materialistic grounds that 'Yazid is too powerful.
He has influence, You will lose'.He said this without recognising the Maqsad behind Imam Hussein's mission.He said this without even stopping to think about helping him, for this holy Jihad.

I am tired Sayyidina

it is 3am in the morning here in the UK

I'm literrally dropping off.

I shall continue with this later Inshallah.

Wassalam

Salaam Sayyidinna

The Image of Islam was obviously MEANT to represent a unified picture, as your dream so beautifully imagines.

To the majority it still is percieved in such a way, for those who take the popular view, without question or analysis. On beginning to question their own faith many Sunni's initially DO feel disheartened. It is like Divorce in a family circumstance, something bad happened, every body desperately WANTED it to be OK, but it just couldn't be.

Perhaps inside of you Sayyidinna this is what you WANTED to see. But the reality of the situation is far from this desire.

I listened to a speech once and the Maulana upon the minber said 'in heaven there shall be no fighting'. How can we assume then that Ayesha and Ali can be together, when there is always this danger of conflict and revenge.

And finally it is Allah who shall reward the just and punish the unjust.

The Prophet's blood would curdle should you decide to to join the Shiaane Ali, but remains at peace with Ayesha who who waged a bloody war with him?

Surely, when Fatema's inheritence was denied by Abu Bakr, and she became angry with him because of it, Mohammed's soul would have churned at that point - for it was his saying that 'whoever angers Fatema also angers me'.

I shall continue with this later.

o ali ameem... i didnt not say those words, the prophet SAS said them to me about the blood curdle..... so when you talk about that you are talking to him...i am just narrating what happened...
he spoke nothing but the truth.... so if he says my blood will curdle... then it shall....
again we as human say this and that cause we cant accept it... kinda like you would say hard to swallow.. but there not like us not mere human.......
the prophet of allah SAS said:
"if anyone see's me in a dream, indeed he has seen me...for shaytaan cannot take my form.." sahih bukhari....
so if shaytaan cannot take his form then he spoke those words right........... so
if the prophet SAS said to me that "these are my great friends" and abu bakr was in the dream then surely he is a great man, and wat happened was forgiven....
and if the husband of fatima RA can say " Who can hate the first man promised heaven"... then indeed there is no more feud between them or if there was any to start with....
and if the wife of that man can come out of a chariot with ayesha RA, then obviously there matters are resolved if there was any to begin with...
you see my friend ali ameem... all the answer to the sunni/ shia problem was in that dream i just had to decipher them.... may allah forgive those who do not believe me...ameen

salams from NEW ZEALAND

Dear Sayyidinna

It remains to be seen whether there have been dreams that people have dreamed of The Prophet, that contradict your own.

If everything has been forgiven as you say than the mass of Sunni Ulema should not deprive their own people of the reality of civil conflict and bloodshed that occured when the Sahabah were killing the Sahabah.

Although Bukhari may state that which you imply, with regard to seeing Mohammed in a dream, it may not necessarily be viewed as Sahih amongst the Shiah ulama - for there is bias and many mistakes within this collection , that intentionally show Mohammed pbuh in unfavourable light.

Had you come across Yazid in your dream as being 'forgiven' then what would we be able to assume.

It seems strange that it is only within this dream that the horrific conflicts of civil war seem to have been solved - WHY was there no forgiveness for Imam Ali on either Ayesha's OR Muawiah's part when they were INSISTING on revenge for Uthman's blood?

And why the blame of it upon The Ahlul Bayt, with no proof whatsoever, as Tony blair went into Iraq on the premise of Weapons of Mass Destruction, when there WERE none, so goes into battle Muawiah and Ayesha against the divinely appointed Imam Ali.

Well. If the Prophet Mohammed can forgive Muawiah and Ayesha for killing the beloved soldiers of Ali The Master of The Believers, then most certainly he will be able to forgive The Shia of that same Imam, for CURSING his enemies up until the Judgement day.

Wassalaam

sallam brothers and sisters

HELLO ALL

May Allah guide us and forgive us(INSHALLAH)
All the last post is all about history and politics that is not mentioned in the holy quran.
Is Islam based on after the prophets demise(pbuh).
I find it know very gross to see that this post has not ever mentioned how to be better muslim or how to get closer to ALLAH (SWT).
LEAVE the unknown to ALLAH no one here knows what happend for sure 100% and if someone says they are full of it.
How does the unkown politics change your worship to ALLah.Did the Holy Quran Come to Ali R.a or Abu BAkr OR umar or to utmam.r.a NO it came to Mohammad(pbuh).
To BE honest If a was interseted in islam and looked at these post i would think that Immam Ali was greater than Mohammad(pbuh) (istarfiallah).
In australia they had a show which my Best freind let me know about which his Father pro shia,the show was called propstiutes behind the veil.The shown was based in Iran on how so called muslim women commit mutha,and show live footage on discussing evil men go to whores excuse the language and pays her for half hour or 1 hour,Imangine all the people in Australia inculde my self think about this religon.
I was discussed,THIS IS NOT ISLAM IS THIS THE WORKS OF SHAYTAN.

How did the infallible Immams know their were appointend?????????
I have searched the hole quran looking for anyting about the "infallible immams" but i found nothig which wasnt a surprise.

IF a MUSLIM does not accept that immams were appointed by ALLAH and does not accept they Infallible(perfect beigns) are they accept AS MUSLIMS????????

Every here talk about the political crap,cursing people they do not know,do you guys think that yous are god (instafirallah) who can you dare to say one is sinless and one is in hell because of his actions,do you not belive in repantence???
ALLAH IS ALADee(JUDGE) NOT any here that claim alot of crap that this happened and what not.
Lets talk on how we can help our brothers that are getting killed every day,or the poor,or the needy.
Lets talk about the greatness of mohammad(pbuh) or even one of the 25 metioned prophets in the holy quran.

every thinks that they a wright its called shaytan,know one knows what only ALLAH, and know else and if somesays they do,their shaytan must be very deep in them

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
Islam is my religon
ALLAH is my LORD
MOHAMMAD IS MY PROPHET (PBUH)
THE QURAN IS MY KITTAB

SALLAM BRO/SIS

THIS IS THE BEST I CAN TO PUT THE FAMILY TREE OF MOAMMAD(PBUH)
KADIJAH r.a WAS THE MOTHER OF FATEMA .r.a WHY ISNT SHE FROM AHALBAYT,PLEASE SHARE YOUR VIEWS.

Mohammad's family was comprised of his wife, Khadijah, their children, Ali, his nephew,had four daughters: Zainab, Ruquaiyah, Umm Kulthum, and Fatimah; he also had three sons: Al Qasim, Abdullah, and Tahir. Unfortunately all of Mohammad's sons died in infancy or childhood; moreover, during Mohammad's lifetime all of his daughters, except Fatimah, also died. Yet his daughters died after he received the prophethood, and they all converted to Islam. It should be remembered that Mohammad had to endure great loss in his life, watching almost all of his family die before him. Mohammad's family history with Khadijah is important because it is one of the reasons why she was so well loved and remembered by him, especially after her death.

Uthman belonged to the clan of Bani Umayyah. He was the Caliph for 12 years (644 - 656). He was murdered when in prayer. His wives were:

(1) Rukaia: She was the second daughter of prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Initially, Rukaia was married to Utbah Bin Abu Lahab. Utbah divorced her soon after marriage. The prophet then got her married to Uthman b. Affan (Caliph). They migrated to Abyssinia during the first wave of Muslim migration to Abyssinia. They had one son named Abdullah who was born in Abyssinia and died at the age of 6.

(2) Umme Kultum : She was the third daughter of prophet Mohammad. She was previously married to Utaibah b. Abu Lahab but was divorced soon. Then prophet got her married to Uthman b Affan (the Caliph). They had two sons. Both the sons died at infancy. Thus, Uthman married two daughters of prophet Mohammad (Rukaia and after Rukaia's death Umme Kultum).
Wives of Caliph Ali

(1) Fatema: Fatema was the youngest daughter of prophet Mohammad. Ali was the son of Abdul Mutalib, prophet's uncle. Thus, Ali was the first cousin of prophet Mohammad. Ali married Fatima when he was 21 and Fatima was 15 years old. Ali did not marry another woman as long as Fatima was alive. After Fatima died due to a fatal injury when her house was burnt down, Ali started collecting more wives. Ali and Fatima had five children. They were: Hasan, Husain, Zainab, Umm Kulthum, Mohsin (still birth

WHY WOULD PROPHET(PBUH)MARRY HIS daughetr to someone that yous(shia)think that he was evil,weired.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Like I said.

Mohammed ur Rasoolallah, according to the majority Shia belief, only had one biological daughter. Fatema tu Zahra.

The Ahlul Bayt in relation to 33:33 of the Quran, IN ACCORDANCE TO WHAT THE SUNNIS BELIEVE IN consists of only FIVE members, including Mohammed.

YES there were other good Sahabah's and other Good family members but the 12 IMAMS, MOHAMMED AND FATEMA are extra special.

If you don't believe in the 12 Imams it doesn't make you a kaafir.

That's what an ignorant Sunni would say to a shia just 'cause he didn't believe in the Khilafah e Rashidun.

La Illa ha illallah Mohammed ul Rusoolullah; That's it.
And Belief in Quran and what it preaches.
That's it.
It makes you a muslim.

If your point is to say that it is not worth discussing SHIA/SUNNI issues then your best bet is to do it on another site, because 'discussing' is exactly what YOU are doing by making those comments on here.

We insist that the history of Islam IS important and that it deserves due attention AND analysis, and wish to discuss it even if it is painful to you.

A lot of bloodshed and killing went on between the Sahabah's and we want to talk about it and get down to the bottom of who was right or wrong, even if it takes forever.

We do not wish to run away from the problem so that history can create itself anpother 'battle of the Camel' , another 'Battle of Siffeen' OR another KARBALA.

YOU have done nothing wrong, you AND your Sunni brothers we are OK with you , there is no blood on your hands for the taking of another life.

We are only debating, we are not killing each other.

We are criticising the muslims who illegally made it halal to take the life of other muslims.

And it is our duty to CONSISTENTLY remind and wake up the muslim Ummah that their history has been dirtied with the blood of innocent muslim life.

'The curse of Allah is upon the unjust' Quran - and even if those unjust people happen to be supposedly pious sahabah then Allah's curse is on them also.

So ALL SHIA Mo'mineen instead of brashly using vulgar language just look toward the Quran, to see how Allah himself CURSES the enemies of the Ahlul Bayt.

Politics of the past will always relate to the politics of the present.

Some muslims are still chanting "KHILAFAH STATE! KHILAFAH STATE!"

Well God help us if we ever end up getting a KHALIFAH like Muawiah.

"Every day is Ashurah and every place is Karbala"
- Imam Ja'afer us Sadiq.

If the Jews are never to forget the Holocaust - Then why should we forget Karbala.

This is our weapon. Our psychological strength in preparing for Jihad lies in the events of this epic tragedy and we are NEVER, NEVER going to forget it.

Wassalaam

ps

in relation to the underlying comments

'All the last post is all about history and politics that is not mentioned in the holy quran'.

Imam Hussain IS reffered to in the holy Quran, so is the battle of Karbala.

'I find it know very gross to see that this post has not ever mentioned how to be better muslim or how to get closer to ALLAH (SWT)'.

The closer we get to the life and love of the Ahlul Bayt (INCLUDES MOHAMMED), their practices and commands, the closer we get to Allah.

'LEAVE the unknown to ALLAH no one here knows what happend for sure 100% and if someone says they are full of it'.

Karbala,Siffen, Jange Jamal ALL happened for 100% SURE and it is not UNKNOWN about.

'How does the (unkown)??? politics change your worship to ALLah'.

I tell you how.

That part in your SALAT when you say

GOD BLESS MOHAMMED AND HIS FAMILY that includes IMAM ALI AND IMAM HUSSEIN.

That is what Ayesha was saying in her prayers, that is what Muawiah was saying in his prayers and that is what Yazid was saying in his prayers.

Obviously, THEIR worship hadn't changed because of it, they were blind to what they were actually saying and who they were saying it about and instead of paying this Aale Muhammed allegience they fought against it instead.

ABSOLUTELY AND UTTERLY BLIND TO THE TRUTH OF THEIR HYPOCRISY AND VIOLENTLY CATACLYSMIC ACTIONS.

Just like the rest of the blind wonderers.

I ask you, where the hell is the loyalty.

Wassalaam

PPS

You still haven't answered my question from ages back.

Which side would you have fought on, Imam Ali's or Ayesha's?

(I met this Arab and he goes he would've sat on a hill and watched).

Wassalaam

woo woo!! AmerIslam

How dare you call daughter of Abu Bkar an evil doer? while you don't even know the definition of Mutah and it's religious application and conditions.

your comment, quote
"In australia they had a show which my Best freind let me know about which his Father pro shia,the show was called propstiutes behind the veil.The shown was based in Iran on how so called muslim women commit mutha,and show live footage on discussing evil men go to whores excuse the language and pays her for half hour or 1 hour,Imangine all the people in Australia inculde my self think about this religon.
I was discussed,THIS IS NOT ISLAM IS THIS THE WORKS OF SHAYTAN."

This is on Mutah!!
The folowing Hadits will make your eyes wide open.

Here are some hadiths on Mutah...(from Al-Mizan)

Ibn Rushd narrates from Jabir ibn 'Abdillah that he said: "We did Mutah in the days of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.), and Abu Bakr, and during half the reign of 'Umar; then 'Umar forbade people to do so.” (Bidayatu 'l-mujtahid)

Ibn al-Kalbi has said: 'Verily, Salamah ibn Umayyah ibn Khalaf al-Jumahi did Mutah with Salma, slave girl of Hakim ibn Umayyah ibn al-Awqas al-Aslami, and she bore from him a child, but he denied (paternity of) her child. This news reached 'Umar; therefore he forbade Mutah.” (al-Isabah)

Ayyub says: "'Urwah said to Ibn 'Abbas: 'Do you not fear Allah, that you allow Mutah?’ Ibn 'Abbas said: 'Ask your mother, O 'Urwah!' Then 'Urwah said: 'But Abu Bakr and 'Umar did not do it!' Thereupon, Ibn 'Abbas said: 'By Allah! I do not think you will stop (in your arrogance) until Allah chastises you. We talk to you from the Prophet (s.a.w.a.), and you talk to us from Abu Bakr and 'Umar.' " (Zadu ’l-ma‘ad)

The author says: The mother of 'Urwah [mentioned in the above tradition] was Asma', daughter of Abu Bakr, who was married in Mutah form by az-Zubayr ibn al-'Awwam, from whom she bore Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr and 'Urwah.

ar-Raghib writes: "Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr reproached 'Abdullah ibn `Abbas because the latter considered Mutah as lawful. 'Abdullah ibn 'Abbas told him: 'Ask your mother how the censers glowed between her and your father?' So he asked her and she replied: 'I did not give birth to you but in Mutah’ ”(al-Muhadarat)

Muslim al-Quriyy says: 'I asked Ibn 'Abbas about Mutah; and he allowed it; but Ibn az-Zubayr used to reject it. So (Ibn Abbas ) said: 'This is the mother of Ibn az-Zubayr, who narrates that the Messenger of Allah had allowed it; so go to her and ask her.' " Muslim says: "So we went to her and, lo! she was a stout blind woman. She said: 'The Messenger of Allah has allowed it.’ ”

(as-Sahih, Muslim)

The author says: The context shows that the question was about the Mutah of women; and other traditions too give the same meaning.

more on Mutah!!

In the Qur'an, God says concerning the believers: “And who guard their modesty – Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy, But whoso craveth beyond that, such are the transgressors” (Qur'an, XXXIII, 5-7). Also, “And those who preserve their chastity save with their wives and those who their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy; But whoso craveth beyond that, those are they who are transgressors” (Qur'an, LXX, 29-31). These verses were revealed in Mecca and from the time of their revelation until Hijrah, it is well known that Mutah marriage was practiced by the Muslims. If Mutah marriage had not been true marriage and women who had married according to it had not been legitimate wives, certainly according to these Qur'anic verses they would have been considered to be transgressors of the law and would have been forbidden to practice Mutah. It is thus clear that since temporary marriage was not forbidden by the Prophet it was a legitimate marriage and not a form of adultery.

The legitimacy of the Mutah marriage continued from the time of the hijrah until the death of the Holy Prophet as this verse, revealed after hijrah, proves, “And those of whom ye seek content (istamta’tum, from the same root as Mutah) (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty (Qur'an, IV, 24). Those opposed to Shi’ism contend that this verse from the “Chapter on Women” was later abrogated, but the Shia do not accept this view. In fact, the words of the second caliph cited above are the best proof that up to the time of his ban such marriages were still practiced. It is inconceivable that if Mutah had been abrogated and forbidden it would have continued to be commonly practiced by Muslims during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet and after his death until the time of the second caliph; that if Mutah had been abrogated no action would have been taken to forbid it. We cannot accept the claim that the only thing that the second caliph did was to put into action an order of prohibition and abrogation of Mutah given by the Holy Prophet, for such a possibility is negated by the clear words of the second caliph. “There are two Mutahs which existed in the time of the Holy Prophet and Abu Bakr which I have banned, and I will punish those who disobey my orders.”

My question to you... Why Abu Bakr did not take action and inform Ummah of the abrogation?
Was not it that Umar was going aganist Abu Bakr and Prophet (pbuh)?

AmeerIslam!!
one more thing... why do you believe kafirs of broadcasting anti-Ialsm propaganda? While you can see they are there to discredit Islam.
Go to the laws of Islam and see what are the conditions of marriage and Mutah, there are websites such as http://mutaah.net or others.

nah man mutah is yuk.... sorry had to agree with ameerislam here..... ali ameem il be posting sumping up soon...... keep and eye out

salams from new zealand

hahahahaha....sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni!!!

It does not make any difference if you agree of shariah or not...Allah(swt) is not going to change it for you my friend.
What would you say to Abu bakr's daughter? She did it and had two children from that Mutah.

Also kafirs say the same thing about Islam...they even do zina and say God will not do anything to them...what will happen to them you don't want to know...LOL

sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni!!!
want to hear some yuk....

According to Ahl'ul Sunnah Umar indulged in sodomy and Allah (swt) was forced to legitimise this practise in the Qur'an

For evidence you can consult the following texts:

Jami al Tirmidhi, Bab al Tafseer Volume 2, page 382, 'Ayat Hars'

Fathul Bari Volume 8 page 191 Kitab Tafseer Ayat Hars

Gharab al Qur'an Volume 3 page 249 Ayat Hars

Tafseer al Ibn Katheer Volume 1 page 261

Fayl ai Lawathar Volume 6 page 229

Tafseer Qurtubi Volume 1 page 92 Ayat Hars

Lets quote verbatim from Jami al Tirmidhi:

"Ibn Abbas narrates that Hadhrath Umar went before Rasulullah (s) and "Master I am destroyed!'. Rasulullah (s) asked 'what thing has destroyed you?'. Umar replied last night I had anal sex. Rasulullah (s) did not give a reply to Umar, then Allah (swt) sent down this revelation "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; the words 'kabool wa Dhabar' (the anus is accepted)"
Jami al Tirmidhi, Bab al Tafseer Volume 2, page 382, 'Ayat Hars'

Note this is a commentary to Surah al Baqarah, Verse 223 "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; the words "kabool wa Dhabar" (the anus is accepted) is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an, but some dishonest Salafi sought to justify his Imam's practice via this additional verse.

so are your allowed to take your mrs in tha ass? yes or no?
sunnis say your not allowed to?

your right ali ameem...
the prophet sas didnt say to me direct answers.... he answered with answers...
but after doing that he told me that my blood will curdle if i did become a shian'e ali... which is obvious for me to be a sunni and stay on the path which i am on now....
also you said
"Well. If the Prophet Mohammed can forgive Muawiah and Ayesha for killing the beloved soldiers of Ali The Master of The Believers, then most certainly he will be able to forgive The Shia of that same Imam, for CURSING his enemies up until the Judgement day."
ok ok well said brother well said...
but aliRA clearly said to me :
"o grandchild i gave my allegiance to abu bakr why dont they"...
obviously he is saying that i on earth forgave and gave my allegience to the great men before me so who are they not to....
i still stand by my earlier statement brother... that the answers to the sunni-shia trivialism is in this dream of mine....

may allah forgive those who dont believe........
catch you later ali ameem

salams from NEW ZEALAND

TYPO------ i mean he answered me with questions...SORRY LOL

hahahaha.... all the references above were from your sunni ahadith books...so here we go...sunnies can do it with their mrs.... Shia's find it yuk.... and unfounded.
Your 2nd khalifah did it as per referenced hadiths.

I wonder why Aisha used to call Uthman a jew. Can someone tell me?

I have two questions...
Would Allah(swt) forgive the murderers of Uthman?
Where is the tomb of Aisha?

tod,
allah would forgive the murderers of uthman...
Bro does No 1 know where aisha RA tomb is...holy shuckkz thats weird........

Brother Seyyidinna

Historical references indicate from The Shia side that Imam Ali NEVER paid allegience to Abu Bakr.It was just never as clean cut as that, even sunni's are aware of the authenticated details pertaining to the event of Ghadir e Khumm.

Ali's position was very strong in relation to the knowledge that over a hundred thousand muslims had witnessed Mohammed hand over succession to him at the valley of Ghadir.

It was not necessary therefore for him to pay allegience to someone lesser than himself, who had been nominated by a handful of tribespeople.

ie, everybody knew Ali's position.

The problem for Abu Bakr was for Imam Ali to stop persistently vying for his claim to it. The problem with Bibi Fatema tu Zahra didn't help either as she was a hardcore supporter of Imam Ali's right to Khilafat. After all, the vested interests of her sons were at stake - and in turn the vested interest in Islam as a legitimate Imamiyyah government.

Matters came to a tragic end when finally, as I have described previously, Umar's pressure group lead to the immediate Shahadat of Imam Ali's wife and her unborn child.

And do you think after all that Imam Ali would cave into the request of this opportunist Abu Bakr, whom the prophet had commanded to be in battle with Usama at the time of his death?

Would there not have been absolute pain in Imam Ali's heart! My friend. It was the patience of our great Imam that prevented him from waging war there and then, upon the people who killed his own wife.

Had he been anything in mentality, like the scheming Ayesha and that trickster Muawiah, then certainly he had a case for war, as the aforementioned felt THEY had, on the pretext of 'vengeance for the blood of Uthman'.

But patience my friend was his virtue.

After Fatema tu Zahra ceased to exist upon this earth, so did Imam Ali cease to fight over his rightful position as leader of the Muslim Ummah.

For the sake of peace. He told his Shi'as to remain quiet as well.

And for THAT Abu Bakr was thankful.

So you see my friend Seyyidinna, as Ali was unable to accept the leadership of a USURPER so was his son Hussain unable to do the same for The villainous Caliph of the Muawiah lovers, YAZID.

Hussain & Ali.
Like father like son.
Like father like son.

If you care for your dream more than you care for the historical facts my friend, then I shall remind you this, That the Prophet Mohammed himself did not validify for you that which you suggest in the case of Ali.

And which Arab on the night after the event of Ghadir, would not have dreamt about the epic scene they witnessed, when the Prophet Mohammed himself had said "Of whomever I am Leader, Ali IS Leader".

Wassalam.

Dear Seyyedinna

In relation to the comment;

'so are your allowed to take your mrs in tha ass? yes or no?
sunnis say your not allowed to'.

Once again, Tods references are worth pondering over.

The Ayatollah's have passed a verdict
that anal sex with your wife is REPREHENSIBLE even WITH her permission.

Infact, without her permission it is COMPLETELY HARAM.

NAAZLA, are you listening to this?!

Whilst the Sunni's may pride themselves in saying the same, their own prided Sahabah of exemption outrightly contradicts them.

Or should we say according to their OWN standards UMAR COMMITED A SEXUALLY HARAM ACT.

Whilst the least we can say is that none of our Infallible Imams even dared to go down this route and, it is NOT part of THEIR 'sunnah'.

Finally, Tod has confirmed what the Shia have known about this man all along.

For me now there is no doubt.

Not only did Umar ban Mutah but according to the Sunni tradition he gave it up his wife's backside.

Now what does THAT say about him to you?

YUK!

Wassalaam

( I'm sorry. The subject is disgusting but I had to broach it)

sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni!!
your quote "Bro does No 1 know where aisha RA tomb is...holy shuckkz thats weird........"

I did not get it...can you explain? please
I am asking if someone can tell me where aisha's tomb (grave) is?

hahahahaha....nicely said "allah would forgive the murderers of uthman..."
Seems to me that you it all....LOL...I guess you knew who the murderers of Uthman were.

Allah (swt) says in Quran that if someone kills a brother muslim without any reason then He (swt) will put him in hell. It does not make sense when you say Allah will fogive them.
What do you say about that?

btw... Aisah, Talha and Zubair were involved in Uthman's murder and Muawiah later murdered Aisah. My question remain...Where is the grave of Aisha?

Oh brother Tod!

I went to Syria and saw the the grave of Muawiah!
It was not a sightly place. It is possible that the spirit of Umar had visted it. People were actually using it as a toilet, It was a proper shack my friend. A hut with a broom cupboard next to it.

Yeah Aisha had it in for Uthman because he tried to do the same thing to her that Abu bakr did to Fatema, deny her, her (supposed) inheritence.

Now obviously, where was the patience in her to stand for THAT.

This is what I've heard. Please correct me if you know any different.

Muawiah invites Ayesha as honorary guest. A position is granted for her upon a seat that is supported by a tightly stretched cloth, beneath which is a gaping hole, at the bottom of which are spears implanted upwards.

Ayesha sits upon it, falls through into the pit, and is impaled upon the spears immediately.

The hole is covered up with earth, straight away, and to this day lies Ayesha, with no one to testify where she is buried.

Margayya Mardood. Nah Fatehah Nah Durood.

Very clever man Muawiah. A true politician to the last drop.

Obviously he knew Ayesha was, no.1 clever enough to Guage popular support against even The Greatest of Sahabah, as was the case with Ali, and no.2 that she was instrumental in the actual murder of the unpopular Uthman.

Not that Muawiah actually cared for Uthman's vengeance. One more man out of the way for him. He was just out for power. And Ayesha was obvious competition.

It certanly isn't happy families is it?!

It's like my friend mentioned to me, about the succession to Mohammed, prior to his conversion from Sunni to Shia.

" It was like The Romans Ali. It was like The Romans ".

Wassalaam

what shia's dont understand..... is that abu bakr (may allah bless him in 10folds) didnt ask to be caliph he was elected....
at first he said no... and he kept persisting to be say no....
but the people pleaded him to be...
and he couldnt disappoint the ummah....
may allah bless the grave of MUAWIYA ra...
i bet inside his grave is palaces among palaces INSHA ALLAH....

ali ameem.... if ali said he gave abu bakr may allah be pleased with these men his bai'te then who are we, me and u to say he didnt... we are of now they are of then... the time it actually happend... the real witnesses....
sometimes history is incorrect....
if you think not think about jesus... is his history incorrect... yes

laterz salams from new zealand

you know tod, sum sunni's say
the shia killed uthman....
blamed it on muawiya and ayeesha RAhuma
to gain political power...
they tried to brainwasher sheer e khuda ALI...
but they didnt realise that he was a man of the sunni a member of the ahlul bayt and there plans were ruined...
so after his death they started there conquest with him out of the way...
and the mehdi RA will come to stop them before the kaffir cause they are the mushrik.....
and his blade will touch there necks.....

well if you put it that way then i guess some sunni's do know who the killers of Uthman RA was and also Ali RA... HAHAHAHAHA but thats what some sunni's say....
i am yet to be convinced by it....

hahaha.....

ALLAH WOULD FORGIVE ANYTHING AND ANYONE.... TO SAY HE WONT IS DOUBTING HIS POWER.....
REMEMBER HE IS MOST RAHMAN.......
the first thing allah wrote in the book he has beside him in heaven is......"my mercy is greater than my anger.".....

hey ali ameem... i have a question who is incharge of the area of muawiyaz grave.... i mean like wat division of islam... sunni or shia

thanks mate.....
salams from new zealand

Salaam Seyyidina

No offence to you,

but let me start by praying for Allah to curse Muawiah the sworn enemy of Aale Mohammed, in the same way He cursed The Lowest Form of Humanity which is 'The Hypocryte Muslim' SHIMR who cut the head of my forefather Hussain Shaheed of Karbala.

May Allah curse his leader in command further, that is Yazid ibne Muawiah the illigetimate grandchild of HINDA the liver eater.

May Allah also open the eyes of the blind who are under the naive impression that the Christians and Jews hold a higher place in Hell than the above mentioned LEADERS OF THE DAMNED.

Unfortunately it seems that the grave I visited is not Authenticaly deemed to be the grave of Muawiah.(I found this out just recently) It had indeed been set up as a decoy and has been standing there for many centuries as such, with the full knowledge that the Shia would vandalise it and use it as a mere lavatory or a place to light bonfires (I saw petrol cans there).

So, you can be rest assured that the grave of your leader is in a secret location - although most certainly he is not protected from the anger of Fatema tu Zahrah's spirit.

May the devils continue to be pleased with him.

The graveyard that I visited was the same as in which Hazrat Bilal Habashi was buried in.

Respected as it is (the graveyard) he (Muawiah) just wouldn't have survived it brother, he wouldn't of survived it.

I feel sorry for you Seyyidina. The Jihad of Imam Ali was a Jihad on Allah's behalf.

Muawiah and Ayesha in their own twisted logic were unable to forgive Imam Ali on the unfounded accusation that he was responsible for protecting the murderers of Uthman (what a preciously weak excuse)!

Had they been aware that 'ALLAH WOULD FORGIVE ANYTHING AND ANYONE' as you say then there would have been no need to shed the innocent blood of Imam Ali's Shia's on the pretext of revenge.

What you're saying just doesn't make sense.

Stop making excuses for these exposed collaborators of FITNA and FASAAD.

The texbook difference between the Sunni and the Shia is that you believe in the 4 rightly guided Caliphs and we believe in the 12 Imams.

You are unaware of the astounding contradition you make when you say that Imam Ali was a Sunni member of the Ahle Bayt - then what the hell was Muawiah of he was fighting his own 4th Caliph?!

Once again, it is NOT happy families, you have your feet in at least three different boats here and if you don't decide which one your sailing in you're gonna fall downwards into the deep blue sea.

The dream is over, wake up and see the bloodshed this ISLAMIC UNITY is heir to.

Wassalaam

Salaam Brothers and sisters

A NOTE ABOUT IMAM ALI IN THE QURAN

Next time you read it, think about this:

It is a well known fact, unanimously agreed by almost all the Muslim scholars, that Ali was the first and foremost among the party of Allah, so he who was his OPPONENT should belong to the party of FALSEHOOD. On this basis the famed Hadith Narrator ibn Abbas said, that as the first and foremost leader as those who have been addressed as 'BELIEVERS' in The Quran, ALI is the main person who is referred to as the CHIEF OF THEM in all such verses.

Aqa Mehdi Puya.

Wassalaam

PS ( SEYYIDINNA)

It didn't matter what 'The People' wanted Abu Bakr to be - his 'pleading' was just the pleading of a lamb braying in the fields, AND IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE, when The Prophet Mohammed had APPOINTED Imam Ali infront of OVER A HUNDRED THOUSAND WITNESSES as his successor in his own lifetime!

You can forget the elections mate. I'm not voting.

Wassalaam

o ali ameem my blood cousin...........

tell me which great aulia the shia has made and he has done to show them what power from allahs mercy has bestowed them with....
just tell me... who and what...

how can you put the first man promised heaven down like that.... was it cause he was the father of your sworn enemy aisha RA..... you know when he was buried beside the prophet SAS...
the people asked the grave of the prophet SAS..... " YA HABIBI ALLAH MAY THIS MAN BE LAYED TO REST BESIDE YOU" a voice was heard from the sky and it said "HE MAY".....
tell me would the prophet SAS want him next to him if he was a bad man... i presume and am assure not....
the dream indeed is over brother but "the words are still there"....
why would he be.... & ali then said "who can hate the man first promised heaven"...
&
" o grandchild i gave my allegiance to abu bakr why dont they"....
o ali ameem why dont you.... your mola is asking you ali ameem why dont you??

salams from nz

PS "ALI AMEEM"

Prophet SAS said that ali was the leader,, right....

but did he say specifically say aliRA is to be khalif after my death and not abu bakr RA....NO
and dont bring your shia hadiths because that means as much to me as my hadith means to you... like oil and water brother...

like a great man, a choosen man from the ahlul bayt once said to me " i gave my allegience to abu bakr why dont they"....

just a quik note.... what division of islam doesnt accept abu bakrs baite....hmmmmm i wonder who he was talking about.hmmmm wonder.. o nah nah dont worry about it brother ali ameem dont worry cause it was just a dream, just a dream....
you go to bed tonight and make aliRA and rasoul allah SAS come into your dream ....
go------------------->
go------------------->
go------------------->
do it for many days, many months, many years, and see if he comes on your demand... go and tell me the answer i will be waiting for your answer brother

salam from new zealand

In the shelters of Sakifah there was once an election. An appointement was made to be a ruller. the kind and freind of the Prophet as they say was made a ruller. But much to my surprise this freind was not present as a pious companion at the shrowding of his freinds death. power was his true freind as leadership was the key to hang around with the prophet. He gaind leadership and then rulled.

At Dawate Dhul Ashira which was an invitation for that person who will accept the right religion would become the successor and brother and Vazeer after the prophet. Ali was proclaimed on that day to take the role, but this fact in history was then watered down, and democracy had taken the new modern role.

Ghadeer is a point that was a fact and it was Ummar who congratulated the Moula first but then had democratically contradicted his actions a had taken the second stance.

Then to complete the trinity came along Osmaan who accepted the book of Allah and the Sunnah and also the traditions of the two sheikhs.

It became a time that people went to the door of Ali and said. Enough of this democracy please we beg you "lead us".

Justice then prevailed and the trinity was shattered.

sallam bro/sis

Dear brother Ali Ammem you still havent answerd my question,how did the Immams know they were appointed by ALLAH,and please dont tell me by a wahi or revelation because that is kaffir.
Why is the nature of shia excatly like NAZI hating people and always blaming people,get over it,when you get judged you get judgeD by yourself,not with IMMAM ALI AND ANY AHALBAYT .r.a.
always hating,and shia wonder why they are small in numbers and havent got a say in islam.
Shia talk like they were their and the actual events.GET OVER IT AND SMELL THE COFFE IT DOES NOT BENIFET YOUS TO HATE PEOPLE THAT THE PROPHET (PBUH)SPOKE GOOD OF,IT ONLY GETS YOU WHERE YOUS ARE KNOW,KNOW WHERE.

WHY IS THE MOSQUE IN IRAQ A "HOLLY SHRINE" IS THIS SHRINE METIONED IN THE HOLY QURAN.

YOUS CLAIM THAT ALI .R.A DIDNT give alligece to ABU bakr R.A so why didnt he do anythig about it?why did he wait nearly 30 yrs why ????????????????
Immam hussein didt give allegince to yazid so he declared war against him,is the shia trying to say Immam ali was scared or feard death, or could it be you shia have all these events wrong???????
TOD how old are you dude,10 yrs old, you talk about stupid and discusting issue,mutha is haram and disccustig in the real islamic world its called adultry!if any one finds it ok YOUR MUST BE A DEVIATE OR JUST SICK.
tHE HADITH tOD METIONED ABOUT UMAR ASKING THE HOLY PROPHET(PBUH) ABOUT THE REA SIDE that must be another of the millions fabricted ahadith that shia make up.

Where is IMMAM alis r.a name or any of they so called sinless immam,meNtioned in the quran,i know iam mentioned in the quran to
O YE WHO BELIVE FEAR ALLAH,AND DONT JUDGE,I ALLAH AM THE JUDGE.
SO I BELIVE AND FEAR ALLAH AND DONT JUDGE.

STOP CURSING MUSLIMS,THIS IS NOT ISLAMIC,THEY SHAYTAN CURSES

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

sydney austarlia

Assalaam un Alaykum Seyyyedina

The Hadith collection that you refer to to validate your dream, Sahih al Bukhari, is the same one that derogatises Mohammed ur Rasoolullah and other prophets such as Hazrat Musa, by proclaiming that they had been seen fully in the nude by one person or the other. You yourself have mistakenly given evidence to this via the incident described where Ayesha saw The Prophet of God FULLY naked ( Astaghfirullah)!

Yes. The Shia scholars do refer to circumstances whereby Mohammed ur Rasoolullah can be been seen in dreams but their are CONDITIONS that must validate whether or not it is TRULY The Last Prophet of God.

For instance, if he is implying something that goes against the The Ahlul Bayt, such as love for Yazid or his father, then the dream would most certainly come into the QUESTIONABLE bracket to say the very least.

The Prophet Mohammed in YOUR dream implies very strongly that if you convert to SHIA it will be tantamount to you leaving him.

Well then why is it that Mohammed ur Russolallah has also visited Shia's in their dreams as well -

especially if you say that the Blade of Imam al Mehdi will be at their necks !

For instance, my own mother who also happens to be SHIA had seen the Prophet Mohammed in her dream.

So How is it that the Prophet Mohammed would have deserted YOU should you have decided to be a follower of the 12 Imams.

Also, my friend was telling me, through discussion and debate he managed to convince an Egyptian woman that the Fique Ja'afariyyah ie The Shia Madhhab was indeed the CORRECT school of thought. She changed completely, her allegiance to Imam Ali, her rejection of Abu Bakr, the way she prayed, the prayer times, the way she did wudhoo, EVERYTHING.

Some time later the Prophet Mohammed DID visit her in her dream AND this was an experience she had never had before. He instructed her to tell the Gentleman who had helped her convert, that he should always ask Allah to send blessings upon himself (The Prophet) and his family.

Now. Although this dream is not as detailed as yours and is very simple at that there is NOTHING within it that contradicts the belief in Love and Loyalty toward The Prophet Mohammed and his Family.

Furthermore it proves that one IS able to reject the complete leadership of Abu Bakr, Umar,Uthman ie convert FULLY to the 12er Shia Faith and STILL see the Prophet Mohammed in a dream.

It proves that she became CLOSER to the Prophet of God Through her newly founded beliefs.According to the standard of The Sunni interpretation-her dream is validated.

This is only ONE example and there are must be countless other ones from the SHIA, who will have not have only seen The Prophet of Allah but also Imam Ali (FOR SURE) and The Imam Al Mehdi - without a doubt.

Furthermore it is not true that Abu Bakr was the first person promised Heaven - Imam Ali testified to The Shahadah prior to ANY other Male, and this accolade goes to The First Imam, not to the man who is responsible for illegally usurping his Khilafat.

In short one cannot change the their loyalty toward prioritising the Love of the Prophet Mohammed and his family on the basis of YOUR dream, especially if it holds the contradiction that implies THE SHIA are far away from The Prophet of God whilst Yazid's father is not.

It only sensible therefore to rely upon the facts of history and, if one is to become impassioned as it were (ie HAVE HEART) then your HEART should be towards the love of the Prophet Mohammed's family, for the oppression that they unduly experienced, through the likes of those who snatched The Khilafat from the House of Fatema tu Zahra - in broad daylight!

Wassalaam

sallam bro/sis
sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni
be very careful of what you take from your dreams brother it is not joke or a game,be careful seeing the greatest man mohammad(pbuh)is a blessing only samll amount of people get this mercy.
Q.did the Prophet (S) mention them, if he did where?

The Prophet said there will be revivors (Imams) in every age, who will kill bid'ah (like the shi'a beliefs of the different shi'a groups such as ismaili, ithna ashri, bohra etc)

The Ahl al Bayt will lead in the Killing of bid'ah, like shi'a beliefs, in every age.

Q. For the benefit of other readers please answer this as well " did the Prophet (S) command us to follow the 12 Immaculate Imams of Ahlul Bayt (A.S) or not, if he did which aspect did he ask us to follow?

The Prophet ordered Muslims to follow him and his companions

After the Prophets we follow Hadzrat Abu Bakar

then Hadzrat 'Umar

then Hadzrat 'Uthman
.
then Hadzrat 'Ali

There is no such thing as 12 Imams. The Wilayah of Imam 'Ali has been given to hundreds of Imams in the Ahl al Bayt and outside the Ahl al Bayt, after the first Noble 11 Imams of the Ahl al Bayt .....

the Imam of the Ahl al Bayt who you label as the 12th Imam is Imam Mehdi who will be the Caliph.

please refer to Tarikh al Khulafa by Sheikh Jalal ud Din as Suyuti all the details are there, I dont want to waste my time copying them here, thankyou

4. Also tell me what would happen if one does not follow the "4 Imams" of Fiqh.

This shows how much you know about the issue you are trying to discuss. Why do you say that I should not give any references?...Do you think talking without references is allowed?

Infact, it is Fisq in the Hanafi math-hab for a laymen like me to be discussing with another laymen like you without support or references.

You are an Ithna 'ashri shi'a (ja'fari shi'a) who is your marji'a?...is it Khamenei? ....or is it Sistani?

what would happen if you do not follow a marji'a?

-------------------------
Ya Abu Bakar...Ya 'Umar.....Ya 'Uthman....Ya 'Ali

as salam 'alaykom wa rehmatuAllahi wa barakatuHu
by Ali Ahmed Sistani
this was from the website forum www.yanabi.com

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

To both Amer and Seyyedina.

Refer once again to the tradition of Ghadir e Khum as Tod has given the references for this, from the authenticated Sunni traditions: Not the Shia.

It is VERY clear from this event that Mohammed appointed Imam Ali as his immediate political and spiritual successor within his own lifetime.

There is no such incident whereby Mohammed indicated the same for Abu Bakr.

Proof of this is that Abu Bakr had to depend upon elections to get the Caliphate whilst the majority of the Muslim Ummah were already aware of Imam Ali's superiority via the event of Ghadire Khum which they themselves had witnessed.

That's why Abu bakr had difficulty in collecting the Islamic Zakat and taxes initially because the people hadn't fallen for it.

Abu Sufyan, Yazid's grandad was the first person to approach Imam Ali in defence of his Caliphate, stating to him that war should be waged - and Imam Ali refused him, knowing that all he wanted was fitna and fasaad and for the muslim ummah to fall into civil conflict straight away.

Even Imam Hussain refused to fight Yazid initially, giving Yazid the gentleman's chance to avoid inciting civil conflict.

But when you get people like Muawiah and Ayesha IMPOSING irreligious righteiousness upon the likes of Imam Ali - then there is no choice but to rise up in battle.

The Prophet Mohammed Appointed Imam Ali.
Imam Ali Appointed Imam Hassan.
Imam Hassan Appointed Imam Hussain.
Imam Hussain Appointed Imam Zayn ul Aabedeen.
Imam Zaynul Aabedeen Appointed Imam Baqir.
Imam Baqir Appointed Imam Ja'afer us Saadiq.
Imam Ja'afer us Sadiq Appointed Imam Musa e Kaazim.
Imam Musa e Kaazim Appointed Imam Ali Reza.
Imam Ali Reza Appointed Imam Mohammed Taqi.
Imam Mohammed Taqi Appointed Imam Ali un Naqi
Imam Ali un Naqi Appointed Imam Hassan al Askari.
Imam Hassan Al Askari Appointed Imam Mohammed Mehdi.

Mohammed ul Rusoolullah Prophesised them as The Twelve Caliphs after him - as can be noted from authenticated SUNNI traditions (refer to previous messages for reference).

The above mentioned ARE the AWLIAH of the SHIA surpassing the likes of Abdul Qaadir al Jilaani TENFOLD, whose specific reference in The Holy Quran as such is non existent.

The Sunni's infact have got a very tenuous view of what it means to be an AWLIAH, especially when the Quran is Saying ' Only Allah is your Wali, and His Apostle, and those who keep up prayers and pay the poor rate while they bow '.

So The AWLIAH (plural of Wali) are ALLAH, MOHAMMED AND ALI (who is the ONLY person to have ever physicaly given Zakat whilst in Rukoo), and in this, the Quranic context Qaadir Al jilaani is not coming any where near the position of Imam Ali OR the lineage of Imams that came IMMEDIATELY after him.

Wassalaam.

PS

Salaam Amer

My complaint was not that you used references, it was that you pasted a HUGE amount of material from another website, reflecting essentially somebody elses opinions.

PPS

I am sure you will agree that one does not fall outside the Madhhab of Islam Just because they do not follow the Hanaf, Hanbali, Maliki and Shaafi Jurists. It is obvious to note this as Imam Ja'afer us Saadiq followed NONE of these schools of thought.

Also The Imams as to whom the Sunni accede to are not IMAMS in the same way that ALI or Hussein were and they bear no comparison.

Imam Jaafer us Saadiq's teacher was Imam Baqir, his father, who was present at the Battle of Karbala, having contended with Muawiah's dad Yazid through his being a part of the Ahlul Bayt.

His teacher was Imam Zayn ul Aabedeen who spoke bravely in the Court of Muawiah's father at Damascus whilst his own father's head was raised on a lance.

His teacher was Imam Hussain The Leader of The Shia's who sided in the battle with him against the Illegitimate son of Muawiah, Yazid.

His teachers were none other than his elder brother The 2nd Imam Hassan Alayhissalaam,

His own Father the 1st Imam Ali alayhissalaam

And The PROPHET of ALLAH who had taught him through his own father (IMAM ALI) and himself.

None of the Four Sunni jurists can possibly lay claim to this heritage of learning as their spiritual doctrine extends from the Ghair Seyyed lineages leading back to Abu Bakr the Usurper of Imam Ali's khilaafat.

Had they TRULY followed Imam Jaafer us Sadiq then they would not have permitted for themselves to be refered to as Imams, furthering a seperately DOCTRINATED Madhhab aside from the true HUSSAYNI Islam.

Wassalaam

Bravo Ali Ameem!! You have answered all what they wanted to hear...so I will not have further comments on Kailafah issue.

But I would say one thing... Allah (swt) says in Quran that all will be raised with their Imams.
My question to my Sunni brothers is this...
Based on Quran who is their Imam now in this age and at this time so they can be raised with their Imam after Qayanmat?

Going back to Mutah issue, I did not started it…I was just answering with some facts…...hahahahaha
I quoted all the hadiths from Sunni sahah...so don't blame me for that... if those hadiths were fabricated then it's not me who did it.

If you want to argue something else than argue on Zina. Is zina any good?....I don't think so... Zina is haram and a great sin.
It says in Quran that a person born out of zina will not even smell the Paradise. What does it mean? He will never ever go to heaven. Now look at the history and you will find that Mauwiah was the illegitimate (born from zina) son of Abu Sufyan, yet you people think he was your Kahifah.

I feel sorry for a person who will appear on the day of judgement with Mauwiah as his Imam.

“Eat your heart out Munafiqs” will be the word of that day….. I pray.

Cheers

Furthermore... if you say leave all to Allah (swt) and He will be the judge...my question to you... What will he judge? If He forgives everyone as you say, then what will be the purpose of the day of Judgement where an Atom's worth of good and an Atom's worth of bad will be judged? (one of the Ayah of Quran mentions this)

Do you know anything about "haqook-un-naas" (rights of humans) and "haqook-ul-ibad"? (right of Allah) Allah (swt) may forgive all wrong doings for "haqook-ul-Ibad"... but He said you have to settle "haqook-un-naas" among yourself and if you come without He will not forgive you.

086.009 The Day that (all) things secret will be tested,

086.010 (Man) will have no power, and no helper.

086.011 By the Firmament which returns (in its round),

086.012 And by the Earth which opens out (for the gushing of springs or the sprouting of vegetation),-

086.013 Behold this is the Word that distinguishes (Good from Evil):

086.014 It is not a thing for amusement.

086.015 As for them, they are but plotting a scheme,

086.016 And I am planning a scheme.

086.017 Therefore grant a delay to the Unbelievers: Give respite to them gently (for awhile).

it was clear that abu bakr should be first khalif... for the fact that he was the only man allowed to lead prayers in hajj salat whilst the prophet was alive.........
tell me shia brothers, what type of man is able to take and lead a prayer whilst the most perfect example of man the most beautiful man the most loved man by allah is right there with him instead of him..... A GREAT MAN, ABU BAKR US SIDDIQI ra......
what man is allowed to take prayers whilst the man who will be given anything (prophet SAS) in his prayers is standing there next to him instead of him.... A GREAT MAN, ABU BAKR US SIDDIQI ra.....
he was the only man fit for the job to lead the prayers after him on the order of the prophet SAS...

SO THIS IS YOUR ANSWER TO YOUR DAY OF GHADIR

YA NABI SALAMUALAIKA YA KHALIFA-e ABU, UMAR UTHMAN, ALI SALAMUALAIKA............

salams from NEW ZEALAND

1 to sunnites : 0 to shiates
LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO

real mature bro real mature.........

SALLAM BRO/SIS

Ali AMMEM can you please answer how did the Immams know they were appointed from ALLAH???
ALLAH IS ONE,MOHAMMAD(PBUH)IS THE MESSENGER AND LAST MAN TO EVER REICVE ANY WAHI OR MESSAGE
THATS ALL MUSLIMS THAT FEAR ALLAH

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Sahih Muslim:
Book 31, Number 5915:
This hadith has been narrated.on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said : It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: "Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

I wonder why Muawiyah wanted to abuse Ali(as)?

Sahih Muslim:
Book 31, Number 5918:
Sahl b. Sa'd reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said on the Day of Khaibar : I would certainly give this standard to a person at whose hand Allah would grant victory and who loves Allah and His Messenger and Allah and His Messenger love him also. The people spent the night thinking as to whom it would be given. When it was morning the people hastened to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) all of them hoping that that would be given to him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Where is 'Ali b. Abu Talib? They said: Allah's Messenger, his eyes are sore. He then sent for him and he was brought and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) applied saliva to his eyes and invoked blessings and he was all right, as if he had no ailment at all, and coraferred upon him the standard. 'Ali said: Allah's Messenger, I will fight them until they are like us. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Advance cautiously until you reach their open places, thereafter invite them to Islam and inform them what is obligatory for them from the rights of Allah, for, by Allah, if Allah guides aright even one person through you that is better for you than to possess the most valuable of the camels.

Ohhhh.... where was Abu Bakr "the most perfect example of man the most beautiful man the most loved man by allah is right there with him instead of him..... A GREAT MAN, ABU BAKR US SIDDIQI ra......"
Why the standard was given to Ali (as) and not given to Abu Bakr.... that most beloved man of Prophet (pbuh) if he was what you say.

hahahahaha Cheers

Sahih Muslim:
Book 31, Number 5920:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

Ohhhh noooo...He(pbuh) did not take Abu Bakr's name. Oh well! may be father-in-law is not part of the family. hahahahahaha

my friends im off on holiday.... to visit the great sheik ghous e azam abdul kadir al jelaani RA............ may allah bless you all and giv you all hediat......
il be back n like 2 weeks INSHA ALLAH

salamz from new zealand ........

PS....
before i go the great aulia line of naqshabandiat comes from the blood line of abu bakr us siddiq RA....
tell me why would allahSWT make these men aulia if they loved abu bakr us siddiq RA and followed the direct sunnah and 4 schools of thought....
tell me why would allahSWT make these men aulia if these men are loving a bad man.....

HAHAHA ..........
laters tod........

Dear Amer

In relation to your question

Ali AMMEM can you please answer how did the Immams know they were appointed from ALLAH???

They knew this through The Prophet Mohammed having foretold the first of them of their appointment, and this narrative was passed down unto each of them, up until the twelfth, whose name was PROPHESISED as being Mohammed Al MAHDI.

There are many verses in the Quran, not just about YOURSELF as you seem to want to suggest, but that are in direct relation to this 12th awaited Imam.

Wassalaam

Salaam Seyyedina

As I said before,

Al Jilani bears no correlation in status to any one of the Twelve Imams of The Ahlul Bayt.

Go to Iraq Alhamdolillah - but miss the visitation of the shrines of the first, third, seventh, ninth and tenth Imams at your own spiritual recession.

Certainly, if you wish to avoid Shias then the visitation of the shrines of Imam Ali and Imam Hussain will never be in your Kismet.

May Allah guide you to

'The path of those whom YOU have FAVOURED
NOT of those who have gone astray
NOR of those who have INCURRED YOUR WRATH'

Quran - Al Hamd.

May Allah return the seat of JUSTICE, back into the hands of the progeny of FATEMA tu ZAHRA.

Ya Illah hal Aalemeen

PS

" Of Whomever I am Leader, Ali IS leader ".

No matter what YOU say NOBODY can contend with these words of our Final Prophet of God, no matter how many times Abu Bakr leads the prayers - there just isn't any comparison between the clear proof and the insinuated suggestion.

As I said before, no elections needed.

Wassalaam

sallam bro/sis

lets stop beig NAZI and accept what the prophet(pbuh) said
Volume 1, Book 8, Number 456:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

"Allah's Apostle in his fatal illness came out with a piece of cloth tied round his head and sat on the pulpit. After thanking and praising Allah he said, "There is no one who had done more favor to me with life and property than Abu Bakr bin Abi Quhafa. If I were to take a Khalil, I would certainly have taken Abu- Bakr but the Islamic brotherhood is superior. Close all the small doors in this mosque except that of Abu Bakr."
Allah Ta’ala says:
"If you do not help Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam), then Allah Ta’ala assisted him when the unbelievers drove him out, he was one of the two when the two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, " Do not grieve for indeed Allah is with us." Then Allah sent down his Sakeenah (peace) on him."

Commenting on this verse, Hadhrath Ali (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) states, " In this Ayah, Allah Ta’ala reprimanded the entire world besides Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) for not Assisting Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam). Moreover Allah has praised and commended Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu)." Allah Ta’ala refers to Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) as "Thaniyathnain" (the second of the two). Imaam Qurtubi states, "It is evident from this term that Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) is the automatic Khalifa after Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam). The "second" of a leader is his successor." (Qurtubi v8 , p147). Further, Allah Ta’ala refers to Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) as "Sahib" which signifies companion. Hence his "Sahabiyat" (companionship with Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) has been evident and established in the Qur’aan. He enjoys the virtue of bieng the only sahabi whose companionship with Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) is mentioned in the Qur’aan. Allah Ta’ala relates the words of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam), " for indeed Allah is with us." Allah will only be with the true believers. Hence the Ayah firmly establishes the strong imaan of Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu). In Sura Ash Shams Allah refers to Hadhrath Abu Bakr as "Atqa" (The most righteous). Allah Ta’ala declares, "The most honoured in the eyes of Allah is the most righteous among you." From this it is ascertained that Hadhrath Abu Bakr (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) was the most superior personality among the Sahabah.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

sallam
brother Ali Ammem can you please verify your hadith about the Immams

many thanks
ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Lier..lier..pants on fire...

The truth is as follows:

The following sources have narrated that the Prophet ordered that all the doors of the houses opening toward the mosque be closed except the door of Ali's house: Ahmad bin Hanbal in Musnad. Volume I, page 175, Volume II, page 26 and Volume IV, page 369; Imam Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i in Sunan and in Khasa'isi'l-Alawi, pages 13-14; Hakim Nishapuri in Mustadrak, Volume III, pages 117-125 and Sibt Ibn Jauzi in Tadhkira, pages 24-25 have testified to the reliability of this hadith on the basis of chains of narrators of Tirmidhi and Ahmad. Again, Ibn Athir Jazri in Athna'l-Matalib, page 12, Ibn Hajar Makki in Sawa'iq Muhriqa, page 76, Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Fathu'l-Bari, Volume VII, page 12, Tibrani in Ausat, Khatib Baghdadi in his Ta'rikh (History), Volume VII, page, 205, ibn Kathir in Ta'rikh, Volume 7, page 342, Muttaqi Hindi in Kanzu'l-Ummal, Volume VI, page 408, Haithami in Majma'u'z-Zawa'id, Volume IX;, page 65, Muhibu'd-Din Tabari in Riyadh, Volume II, page 451, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim in Faza'ilu's-Sahaba and in Hilyatu'l-Auliya, Volume IV, page 183, Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa', page 116, in Jamu'l-Jawami', in Khasa'isu'l-Kubra, and in La'aliu'l-Masnu'a, Volume I, page 181, Khatib Khawarizmi in Manaqib, Hamwaini in Fara'id, Ibn Maghazili in Manaqib, Munawi Misri in Kunuzu'd-Daqa'iq, Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, page 87, devoting the whole of Chapter 17 to this very issue, Shahabu'd-Din Qastalani in Irshad-e-Bari. Volume VI, page 81, Halabi in Siratu'l-Halabiyya, Volume III, page 374 and Muhammad bin Talha Shafi'i in Matalibu's-Su'ul

and many others, particularly from among the prominent companions of the Holy Prophet, have narrated the same thing. For instance, Caliph UMAR BIN KHATTAB, Abdullah Ibn Abbas, Abdullah Bin Umar, Zaid Bin Arqam, and Jabir Bin Abdullah Ansari have confirmed the reliability of this hadith.

Some of your prominent ulema, in order to save the people from being misled by the Bani Umayya, have emphasized the truth of this hadith. Muhammad Bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, in his book Kifayatu't-Talib, chapter 50, has dealt with this hadith under a special heading. Quoting from authentic sources, he says that since a number of doors of the companions of the Prophet opened towards the mosque, and since the Prophet had forbidden everyone to enter the mosque in the state of janaba or haiz (pollution making the ritual bath essential), he ordered that all doors of the houses be closed excepting the door of Hazrat Ali's house. He said, "Close all the doors; but let the door of Ali's house remain open." Muhammad Bin Yusuf Shafi'i says that it is peculiar to Ali that he was permitted to enter and stay in the mosque in the state of janaba.
He goes on to say: "In short, the Holy Prophet's conferring this privilege exclusively on Ali was a great honor. It shows that the Prophet knew that Ali, Fatima, and their descendants were entirely free from impurity, as is clearly shown by the 'verse of purity' in the Holy Qur'an." These remarks of a Shafi'i scholar may be compared to the hadith mentioned by Hafiz Sahib.

Leaving aside all the authentic sources we have quoted, if you have any proof of Abu Bakr's purity, please present it. The fact is that even Bukhari and Muslim in their collections of traditions have pointed out this fact that a polluted person cannot stay in the mosque. The Prophet said, "It is not permitted for anyone who is polluted to stay in the mosque except for me and Ali."
Perhaps I may be allowed here to quote a hadith from the second Caliph, Umar Ibn Khattab, which has been reported by Hakim in Mustadrak, page 125, by Sulayman Balkhi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda chapter 56, page 210, and by others, like Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Khatib Khawarizmi, Ibn Hajar, Suyuti, and Ibn Athir Jazri.
He said: "Verily, Ali Ibn Abi Talib possessed three outstanding merits. If I possessed any one of them, it would have been better for me than red-haired animals (camels): (1) The Prophet gave his daughter in marriage to him; (2) The Prophet ordered that all the doors of the houses opening towards the mosque be closed except the door of Ali's house; (3) The Prophet bestowed upon him the flag (of Islam) on the day of the Battle of Khaibar."

From these remarks, it is now clear that Ali was similar to the Holy Prophet in all respects, just as Aaron was to Moses. So when Moses found Aaron fittest for this office, he asked Allah to make him his associate in his mission, so that he might be his wazir (minister or assistant). Similarly, when the Holy Prophet saw that there was no one among all of his followers as deserving as Ali, he asked Allah Almighty to make Ali his minister and associate.

Cheers

How can you deny this?

The Prophet's successor should, according to common sense, be the model of the Prophet. Even your own great ulema have expressed similar beliefs. Imam Tha'labi, in his commentary, confirmed this point. And the great Sunni scholar, Alim Fazil Seyyed Ahmad Shahabu'd-Din, in his Tauzihu'd-Dala'il, has referred to this point as follows: "It is not a secret that the Commander of the Faithful resembled the Prophet of Allah in most good qualities, selfless actions, habits, prayers to Allah, and all other exalted ways of life. This has been proved by authentic reports and reliable sources and does not require any proof or argument. Some ulema have counted some of those qualities which Ali and the Holy Prophet possessed equally."

Among the qualities shared by both is their lineal descent. And arguing from the verse of purity, we see that Ali is similar to the Holy Prophet in purity. (This verse was revealed in reference to five people: Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain.) Ali, like the Prophet, was the Vicegerent of Allah. According to both sects, the following verse was revealed in reference to Ali: "Only Allah is your Friend and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow." (5:55)

Ali was similar to the Holy Prophet in the performance of the duties of prophethood and preaching, as the affair of the Sura of Immunity (Bara'a) shows. The Prophet gave certain verses of the Sura to Abu Bakr and instructed him to recite them to the people during the Hajj. The angel Gabriel soon appeared before the Prophet and told him that it was Allah's will that the matter of the Holy Qur'an should be conveyed either by the Prophet himself, or by one who was of him. Ali was identical with the Prophet in his role as Vicegerent of Allah. The Prophet himself said: "I have been commanded by Allah to announce this to you." Then he grasped the hand of Ali and said, "Know you all, of whomsoever I am the Maula (Master), Ali is also his Maula (Master)." Moreover, the self of Ali is declared to be the self of the Prophet. The 'Verse of Imprecation' (Mubahala) says: "But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: 'Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our selves and your selves; then let us be earnest in prayer and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.'" (3:61)

To return to the time in the mosque when Ali gave the beggar his ring and the Prophet invoked Allah, asking Him to make Ali his associate in his prophethood. Then the Holy Prophet prayed: "O Allah! I am Muhammad, Your chosen one and Your Prophet. Expand for me my breast. And make easy for me my task and appoint for me a helper from my family, Ali. Strengthen my back through him."

Abu Dharr related, "By Allah! The prayer of the Prophet had not ended when the angel Gabriel appeared and revealed this verse to him: 'Only Allah is your Friend and His Apostle and those who believe, those who maintain prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.'" (5:55)

The Prophet's prayer was granted, and Ali was appointed his vizier. Muhammad bin Talha Shafi'i, in Matalibu's-Su'ul, page 19, has dealt with this issue in detail. Furthermore, Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Isfahani in Manaqatu'l-Mutaharin, Sheikh Ali Ja'fari in Kanzu'l-Barahin, Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal in Musnad, Seyyed Shahabu'd-din in Tauzihu'd-Dala'il, Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in Durr-e-Mansur, and other prominent scholars of your sect have narrated this in their works. Some of them have narrated from Asma Bint Umais (the wife of Abu Bakr) and some from other companions.
The following was narrated by Abdullah bin Abbas: "The Prophet took me and Ali by the hand. He offered four rak'ats of prayer, and raising his hands toward the sky, said, 'O Allah! Moses, son of Imran, begged of you to appoint for him a helper and to make easy for him his task. I am Muhammad. I beg of you to expand for me my breast and make easy for me my task. Keep my tongue fluent so that the people may understand my speech. Appoint for me a helper from my family, Ali. Strengthen my back through him, and associate him with me in my affair.' I heard a voice saying, 'O Ahmad! I have granted your request.' Then the Prophet took Ali by the hand and said, 'Raise your hands towards the sky and pray to Allah so that He may bestow something upon you.' Then Ali raised his hands and said, 'O Allah, promise me on Your part that you will hold me in Your affection.' Immediately the angel Gabriel appeared and brought this verse of the chapter 'Mary': 'Surely (as for) those who believe and do good deeds upon them will Allah bestow love.' (19:96)

When the companions of the Prophet were surprised at this, the Prophet said, 'Why are you astonished? The Holy Qur'an has four parts: One-fourth concerns us (the Ahle Bait); one-fourth concerns lawful matters; one-fourth is for unlawful matters; and one-fourth concerns commandments and ordinances. I swear by Allah that there are many verses in the Holy Qur'an which have been revealed in praise of Ali.'"

more cheers

The last nail....hahahahaha

Of all the hadith concerning the vicegerency of Ali, the hadith of Invitation is the most important. On the day the Prophet proclaimed his prophethood, he also proclaimed that Ali was his successor. The ulema of your sect, including Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Muwaffaq Bin Ahmad Khawarizmi, Abu Ja'far Muhammad Bin Jarir Tabari, Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali and a host of others have reported that when verse 214 of the Chapter Shu'ara: "And warn your nearest relations," (26:214) was revealed, the Prophet invited forty of the Quraish, to Abu Talib's house. He put before them a leg of goat, some bread, and a cup of milk. They laughed and said: "O Muhammad! you have not served enough food for even one man." The holy Prophet said: "Begin eating in the name of Allah." When they had eaten and were fully satisfied, they said to each other: "Muhammad has bewitched you with this food." The Prophet stood up among them and said: "O descendants of Abdu'l-Muttalib! Allah Almighty has sent me as a messenger to the whole of creation in general and to you in particular. I invite you to make two statements which are light and easy for the tongue, but on the scale of action they are heavy. If you make the two statements, you will be masters of the lands of the Arabs and the non-Arabs. Through them you will go to Paradise and will obtain immunity from Hell. These two expressions are: first, to bear witness to Allah's Oneness, and second, to bear witness to my prophethood. The one who first of all acknowledges my call and helps me in my mission is my brother, my helper, my heir, and my successor after me."

The Prophet repeated the last sentence three times, and each time none except Ali responded to him, saying, "I will aid and help you, O Prophet of Allah!" So the Prophet declared: "This Ali is my brother, and he is my successor and Caliph among you."

too many cheers....

What can you say?...LOL

It is also recorded in the books of your ulema that Ali was the mirror of the high qualities of all the prophets. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali in his Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume XI, page 449, Hafiz Abu Bakr Faqih Shafi'i, Ahmad Bin Husain Baihaqi in Manaqib, Imam Ahmad Bin Hanbal in Musnad, Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi in Tafsir-e-Kabir in connection with the verse of Mubahala, Muhyi'd-Din Ibn Arabi in Yawaqit-o-Jawahir, Issue 32, page 172; Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, the beginning of Chapter 40 on the authority of Musnad of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, Sahih of Baihaqi, and Sharhi'l-Mawaqif wa't-Tariqati'l-Muhammadiyya, Nuru'd-Din Maliki in Fusuli'l-Muhimma, page 120; from Baihaqi; Muhammad bin Talha Shafi'i in Matalibu's-Su'ul, page 22; and Muhammad bin Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in Kifayatu't-Talib, Chapter 23, have narrated from the holy Prophet with slight differences of words here and there, saying: "Whoever wishes to see the knowledge of Adam, the piety of Noah, the submission of Abraham, the sublimity of Moses, or the devotion of Jesus, may look upon Ali Bin Abu Talib."

Ali..Ali...Ali..Ali

salam........... every1 just a stop over in australia... found a computer so i couldnt leave you guyz hanging lol........
anyways sorry "tod" your hadith is hadith......
and amerislam clearly presented you with AL QURAN... evidence.....
as you can see there was a difference in hadith of the same narration...
so you look to the better of it, which is Al quran.. the book of no doubts, and lies...
Amerislam facts are true i have looked them up myself...Masha ALLAH amerislam may allah bless now and in the hereafter......
No matter how many hadith you put forward the words of the QURAN are stronger......
ameen summah ameen

salam ali ameem....
PS i will visit the shrines of Ali RA....
why is it shia's make it soundlike we dont like Ali when we love him more then our lives....

PSS again tod if Ali RA resembled the prophet SAS it was for his own good, he was simply following the sunnat......
again people make misconceived interpretations....

stay strong amerislam

salamz

another quicky before my plane comes in like 5 hours..........

i am so excited by the way lol....anyways

indeed ali is the leader no1 said he wasnt ali ameem.......
but if imam al ambia told abu bakrRA to lead the prayers and be the imam then obviously he must be the next khalif....

imam al ambia told abu bakrRA to lead the prayers... imam al ambia to him...
not ali not uthman not umar but abu bakr.... RAhuma....

and no1 can deny this also.... this is the orders of imam al ambia.....

salams every1

hahahahaha... sayedinna! so you deny your own scholars and Ulema's and your own books...I have not given you any reference of what Shai thinks or from their books since you will never accept their books...lot's of people don't even accept Quran and interpret it the way they want...so it's not Allah's fault....Allah has said learn Quran from "Rasikhoon"...find me one from Sunni jammat?...

sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni may Alah(swt) give you guidance the minute you see the Holy Shriane of Imam Ali(as).

I can laugh all the way to the Paradise and say to you to read the following by resting my case;

THE CLEAR PROOF, EVIDENCE, CHAPTER NO. 098

With the Name of Allah, the Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer

098.001 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,-

098.002 An apostle from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:

098.003 Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.

098.004 Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them

Clear Evidence.

098.005 And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

098.006 Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the

Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

098.007 Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.

098.008 Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

sorry tod, thats not as specific as amerislam's facts .....i dont see why youll be laughing HAHAHAHA.....

sorry mate
SALAMS FROM NEW ZEALAND

sallam bro/sis

brother,sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni gives my sallams the great Immam Ali May ALLAH BE PLEASED WITH HIM BESTOW HIS MERCY UPON HIM.
do you think immam ALI would be happy that ignorant people are saying that YOU ali .ra has been compared to the prophet(pbuh).I DONT THINK SO,I THINK HE WILL BURN THEM ALIVE LIKE HE DID TO OTHER TWO HUNDRED HE BURNT.
Tod Grow up dude,its not a game maybe your thoughts on your own school of thought might be funny,but some people take our deen seriously.
seriously why dont you just say the Immam Ali is better than prophet(pbuh) and also a prophet.
Mohammad(pbuh)sent abu bakr r.a to preform hajj on his behalf,Mohammad(pbuh)chose abu bakr r.a to go the the greatest event in islam to Medina,Mohammad(pbuh)chose abubakr r.a to lead prayers while the holy prophet(pbuh)was Ill.
Abu bakr was a freind of the prophet(pbuh)befor he was a prophet(pbuh).
Abubakr was elected by the muslims of mecca.
Abubakr was with the holy prophet(pbuh)in the cave pretecting the holy prophet(pbuh),i dont say that ABU bakr was scared its just a another (NAZISHIA)denial that abubakr was a true copmanion of mohammad(pbuh).
Atleast some people on this post Love and honour the great copmapnions and ahalbayt R.A,how can you go wrong.
OH YE did The GREAT IMMAM ALI PREFORM ADULTRY sorry i mean mutha(istafrallah)he was a muslim not a deviate like some muslims these days

May ALLAH FORGIVE US AND THE ONE BEFORE US INSHALLAH,FOLLOW ANY PIOUS MUSLIM IS GOOD BUT MAKING LIES AND FABRICATED AHADITH AND SO ONE IS A DISGRACE AGAINST ISLAM.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salaam Amer Islam.

First of all let me thank Tod for his extensive use of reference material which is no doubt always worth harking back to for analysis and proofs of what actually lie in the books of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jam'aat.

Amer & Seyyidinna

Once again it is of no consequence that Abu Bakr MAY have led the prayers at whichever and whatever point you imply that he did.

The Prophet Mohammed CLEARLY pronounced IMAM ALI to be his successor at the valley of GHADIR and it was infact UMAR who was the first to congratulate him on his becoming the leader of the Muslims within the very lifetime of MOHAMMED; consider the ONE SENTENCE that he gave an ponder at it's outstanding clarity

'OF WHOMEVER I AM LEADER ALI IS LEADER'.

Also, you argue Seyyidinna on the basis of the purity of Al Quran as opposed to hadith, well there is nothing clearer than the verse indicating that only ALLAH, MOHAMMED and ALI (those who bow and give charity)are your LEADERS.(Ref HOLY QURAN 5:55)

Sunnis continue to argue that Fatema, Imam Ali, Imam Hassan & Imam Hussayn's NAMES are not mentioned in The Quran.

Well, no where in the Quran is Abu Bakr's name mentioned either.

And there are some hadith's which shed doubt as to whether it actually WAS Abu Bakr in the cave or not.(ch 9 vs 40)

Should we suppose however, that it is then certainly, as a complete verse it is worth analysing.

Let us read it together, using brackets to help us understand exactly who is who.

' If you will not aid him (Mohammed) Allah certainly aided him (Mohammed) when those who disbelieved expelled him (Mohammed), he (Abu Bakr) being the second of the two, when they were both in the cave, when he (Mohammed) said to his Sahabah (Abu Bakr) GRIEVE NOT!,surely Allah is with us (Mohammed).So Allah sent down His tranquility upon him (Mohammed) and strengthened him (Mohammed) with hosts which you (Abu Bakr) did not see, and made lowest the words of those who disbelieved : and the word of Allah, that is the highest; and Allah is Mighty, Wise'.

You will criticise first of all that I have used a bracket with Mohammed's name only in reference to Allah being with 'us'. Well, in Arabic Grammar the use of Plural Pronoun is used for oneself as a sign of elevated status.

We may note that according to Quranic evidence Hazrat Yusuf also had Sahabi with him in the Jail.The Quranic term Sahabah is used for a companion in this circumstance who happened also to be KAAFIR.

We cannot therefore implicate that just because Abu Bakr was 'the second of the two' he is also Mohammed's spiritual and political successor - otherwise the same might be applied for The Companions of Yusuf.

Furthermore it is clear to note that the TRANQUILITY that was sent down was sent for MOHAMMAD ONLY, and in this circumstance it was ONLY Mohammed who was 'strengthened with hosts', NOT Abu Bakr.

Where as initially one might deem this to be a verse that unifies the two, through further inspection and FURTHER READING it becomes clear to note; there is seemingly a world of diferrence in the spiritual experiences of these two COMPANIONS, who are joined essentially only by their physical proximity.

On the Quranic evidence we may compare once again the above verse 9:40 with The Holy Quran 5:55 whereby Imam Ali's UNION is not only with Mohammed but is with ALLAH also at the level of LEADER and this can once again CLEARLY be interpreted in the spiritual AND political context.

Wassalaam

Salaam Seyyidinna

Your previous question

salam ali ameem....
PS i will visit the shrine of Ali RA....
why is it shia's make it soundlike we dont like Ali when we love him more then our lives....

Answer

It's because you contradict yourselves by defending Mu'awiah at the same time.

Congratulations and may Allah give you Hidaayat.
Do you have to stop off in the UK on the way there? If you do please let me know I would like to meet you at the airport if it is possible.

I have recently returned from Iraq as you know and the security is VERY HEAVY.

I hope you're not going alone - it maybe far from safe.

Anyway I went during the end of the annual mourning ceremonies for Imam Hussayn, so things may have calmed down a little.

If you decide to join the Namaze Jamaat at these places you WILL note that every body will be praying with their hands unfolded and with earth tablets to do sajda on.

ie there is a very, undeniably strong, Shia prescence there which should certainly be something for you to ponder over, if you have an open heart.

However, I am saying this for your own safety, you will be ok in Baghdad as this is a fifty/fifty area Shia Sunni mix, but Karbala and Najaf are PREDOMINANTLY SHIA, and, you are likely to be quizzed as to which sect you belong to (IMPORTANT ISSUE OUT THERE), and WHY you are visiting what is essentialy considered to be a Shia Site.

Like I say, if you are going via UK please let us know and we can have a cup of tea at the airport together. One or two things I would like to gift to you as well.

May Allah bless your Journey and open your mind to the history of the oppression that Aale Mohammed suffered, at the hands of Yazid ibne Muawiah's government.

I'll leave you with one thought.

I was brought up speaking English initially although both my parents were Punjabi speakers. When I was old enough I was expected to LEARN my OWN language. This ended up having to be Urdu as it is the national language of Pakistan - my Mother/Fatherland.

When I quizzed my father later on as to WHY he hadn't taught me Punjabi he said 'You speak Punjabi you LEARN Urdu. If you want to LEARN Punjabi then go to The Sikh priests, because they know it better than anybody else'.

Well everybody knows that the Holy Book of The Sikhs is in their own SACRED Punjabi tongue.

With the same view my brother, if you wish to find out about the history of Karbala, of Imam Hussein and what REALLY happened to the Prophet Mohammed's family, then you will not find that information in the books of the Banni Umayyah - but it will be in the narrations of the Prophet Mohammed's Family themselves, collected by none other than their devoted Shia.

Go and see Iraq brother,
and ask yourself why, ask yourself why.

I pray that we shall meet.

Wassalaam

sallam to muslims
Dear brother Ali,isnt very upseting to see that the so called shia and sunni cant get along in iraq,and they wonder why america invaded and succeded.
Inshallah ALLAH will have mercy on us and unite the true peacful loving glourios religon ISLAM.
TO brother Seyyidinna,IF ANY uneducated muslim askes you,which sect are you,say i follow the religon that mohammad(pbuh)followed and that of ibrahim(pbuh) and that of moses(pbuh) and that of issa(pbuh)and that of Ali r.a and that of abubakr r.a ISLAM,bida sect of shia and sunni ect
ISLAM IS THE ONLY NAME THAT WAS GIVEN TO THE MUSLIMS AS THE HOLY QURAN STATES.
Brother Ali,does the "shia sect" see au akr or uthman or umar as muslims?

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

sallam bro/sis

Ali ammem i ave noticed you havent commeted of the subject if(MUTHa)whats you view as a muslim.
I tod loves that subject,but i feel he very young and on heat as they say in the western world,trying to find a loop hole in islam.
i dot mean to offend you TOD,any way are you muslim TOD,were does your name come from.

ALLAH KOWS BEST
amerislam

sallam
shia website:
Misconception #6: Shias slander and ridicule the first three caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman) and Prophet Muhammad's wife, Ayisha.
Response: Shia considers the first three caliphs as companions and administrators, but not spiritual leaders (Imams). Imam Jafar Sadiq, whose mother and grandmother came from the line of Abu Bakr, said of Abu Bakr, "He gave me birth twice." Ayisha is respected by Shias as the"Mother of Believers," as Ali respected her when he sent her back from Basra to Madinah after the Battle of the Camel. If some Shia do slander the three caliphs and Ayisha, they do it out of ignorance and should ask God's forgiveness. (As we have witnessed how Imam Khomeini The Shia bravely declared death of Salman Rushdie -The author of Satanic Verses who abused the wife of Prophet Ayesha and Shia Leader declared blasphemy, just for his Fatwa the whole western countries became against Iran. See how much price did Shia pay to defend Ayesha - while Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE etc. etc. as the Sunni government were silent they did not defend Ayesha. Now who loves Ayesha?)

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
sydney australia

AmerIslam!!
There is a hadith from Prophet (pbuh) of Islam that " Ali! Only that person would love you who's birth was pure" means the person's mother would be "pakdaman" and Shaitan was had not entered in that person's creation.
Judge yourself AmerIslam where you stand by not loving Imam Ali. (Loving Imam Ali means hating (tabarra, disassociating) Imam Ali's enemies as well, you can not love Imam Ali and still love his enemies)

Secondly answer all my questions since I have written enough in stead of calling names like "NAZISHIA". This is typical of Sunnis when they can't answer and bring forth an argument then they start calling names...

Now, having qualities of a Prophet does not make you a prophet. For example if you follow Prophet’s (pbuh) Sunnah, you don’t consider yourself a prophet? Or do you?
Similarly when Prophet (pbuh) said “Whoever wishes to see the knowledge of Adam, the piety of Noah, the submission of Abraham, the sublimity of Moses, or the devotion of Jesus, may look upon Ali Bin Abu Talib" does not mean that Imam Ali was a Prophet.
Also when Prophet said “O Ali, you are to me as Aaron was to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me."

Your quote “do you think immam ALI would be happy that ignorant people are saying that YOU ali .ra has been compared to the prophet(pbuh).I DONT THINK SO,I THINK HE WILL BURN THEM ALIVE LIKE HE DID TO OTHER TWO HUNDRED HE BURNT.” Now tell me who is ignorant here when Prophet (pbuh) himself comparing Ali (as) with Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus? Or should I assume you are calling Holy Prophet (pbuh) as an ignorant? (nauzo billah)
Btw…I am not aware who was burnt alive by Imam Ali… can you tell me? I know there were people who called him God and they were punished.
Funny thing is that you are talking about Ali’s comparison with Prophets but if you don’t know Ali was called “Wajhullah”, “Aineullah” and “Yadullah”. If you know the meaning of those words then you will know that he was called “face of Allah”, “eyes of Allah” and “hands of Allah”.
So tell me, was he Allah? (nauzo billah)

One time a person came to Umar (when he was so called caliph) and complained about Imam Ali that he had hit a slap on his face while he was doing Tawaf of the Holy Kaaba.
Umar ask him why did he do that. He said I was doing Tawaf and same time looking at a woman.
Umar ask him which side of your face did he hit. He said right side, Umar right away slap him on the left and said to him “Allah’s Eye saw you doing wrong and Allah’s Hand hit you in punishment so why you have come here.” I wonder if Umar was calling Imam Ali(as) as Allah. (nauzo billah)

Cheers my friends and accept the facts…LOL

AmerIslam, your quote "I tod loves that subject,but i feel he very young and on heat as they say in the western world,trying to find a loop hole in islam.
i dot mean to offend you TOD,any way are you muslim TOD,were does your name come from."
My quote" hahahahahahahahahahahaha"

Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman did not change their names when they accepted Islam. So why should I change mine. Whats in the name?...hahahaha

Well I am not a muslim but I am "The Muslim". You happy now...LOL

Look I have written all about Mutah and Zina, if you want you can chose one....hahahahaha
If at heat I am given the choice I would never go for zina.

Btw...You did not say anything to me about Asma's (daughter of Abu Bakr) committing mutah and giving birth to two sons? I was expecting a wrath on me by you. LOL
I hope she being the daughter of the "most important man" did not commit adultery as you suggest. (nauzo billah)

Salaam Amer

Well I guess you can say here that Imam Ali did show respect to Ayesha, even in battle, but little can be said of the same for Ayesha toward Imam Ali as she was the one on a revenge trip for Uthman's blood, who in honesty she didn't really care for any way (well if she didn't care for the 4th Caliph then why should she care for the third)?

As far as Imam Ja'afer us Saadiq tracing his bloodline back through his mother's side to Abu Bakr, I have heard from a prominent Shi'a scholar that this is infact not the case.

However, should we assume that it is the case then it is likely to be through Abu Bakr's son, who was adopted by Imam Ali AFTER the death of Abu Bakr. His mother, Abu Bakr's ex wife married the Imam Ali and his son, Mohammed bin Abu Bakr was a STAUNCHLY devoted SHIAH.

This can be proven through his loyalty to Imam Ali at the Battle of The Camel whereby he famously fought against the side of his own sister Ayesha.

Shi'ah sources narrate that he used to curse his own biological father.

He also fought against Mu'awiah in the battle of Siffeen, whereby Mua'wiah cursed him in one of his letters, for having gone full swing against his own father's conception of an elective system of Khilaafat.

He was later murdered cruelly at the instigation of Muawi'ah in Egypt, whereby his body was left to rot within the the belly of a camel whose guts had been ripped out.

I am not sure if the marraige between Abu Bakr's ex wife and Imam Ali was a Mut'ah marraige or a permanent marraige but it is worth looking into

as TOD has verified that Abu Bakr's daughter herself contracted a TEMPORARY marraige and bore two children from it.

If one looks at the historical details of these battles any person on the verge of converting to Islam would most certainly be shocked, at what kind of violence and cruelty the Muslim Ummah were capable of doing unto each other.

In the light of all this we MUST assume leadership under Imam Ali ibne abi Taalib as he WAS the GENUINE defender of The Faith in all these circumstances.

Muawiah, Ayesha or Ali? It cannot be all three of them Amer, that is contradictory to every thing we believe in. Surely within this most Adhock of unions you must smell the WHIFF of hypocrisy.

It is time to decide my friend. It is time to decide. If not now then later, but one day you will HAVE yo decide.

Aakhiyya Malanga Sache appe Mann lainge
Ajj Nain te Kall Saare ALI ALI Kainge.

Wassalaam

Sallam bro Ali Ammem AND TOD
After all these sharing of opnions,what is the solution to the tension between shia and sunni,both claim their own strories and both claim they are on the wright track.
The reason for this disunity between muslim around the world is because,they have abondand the Holy Quran which is in perfect order,i belive if we return to The Holy Quran and practise what the holy quran says,inshallah ALLAH will bestow is mercy upon us and guide us.
All these issue and dissapointing and unknown political issue does not help us worshipp ALLAH daily,only the few can alhamdolliah.
I as a muslim pray both like the sunnis and like the shia.I pray in my favorite mosque in my area which is named Ali ibnABU TALIB r.a sunni mosque,and also i pray at a shia mosque reguarly,which is named fatma ALZAHRA r.a.
The reason i do this is so i can follow islam the best as i can,and not get caught up in the political problem.I once lost a customer(i own my own bussiness)because a uneducated muslim said "that shia a kaffir" and said,How dare you call another muslim a kaffir,the muslim stormend out of my office and said he and his companions will never travel from again(iam a travel agent).
I am both sunni and shia which equals ISLAM but just a few things that i dont accept from shia just i a few thinks that i dont accept from sunnah wajuma like ALLAH has hands and etc,but i dont hate people and dont care about politics,i care about The holy quran and what is mentioned in it, and the Prophet
pbuh)whom he spoke of good and so i think of them good.
I hate people that hate people and curse,this is not islam.
last year i whent to ashour and all you see people crying and yelling,how can they when they even dont know this person

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam
islam

salam every1 from iraq.....

i am so sorry i cannot make it to the U.K to speak to you... but insha allah i will be there in december or march this or next year....

if allah wills i will see you then...INSHA ALLAH...

man the people here are awesome.... a man approached me here in baghdad....
a old man like really old.... dont know if shia or sunni.... but he said and son what are you... i said what amerislam told me to say "a muslim" he kissed me and said how long have a earned to hear that...
then he said "have you ever seen the prophet SAS" and i said "yes by allah swt yes"
and he said "if you say is the truth what feature of his stands out the most"
i then replied " well he is a beautiful man"
he said "yes but what feature sayed"
immediately i noticed he called me sayed i was shit sacered at this time about how he knew i was a sayed
then i said "honestly to me the most broad feature that took my eye was his eyelashes" he kissed me again and said "HAQUE ALLAH HAQUE ya rasoul sallam ya ali salam".......
then like 25 mins he was gone.....i couldnt find him again...
ali ameem did you meet him he looks:
built well
fair
long white beard
blue eyes..????
i really wanna find this guy again...
anyways tomorrow imma explore the markets it looks so beautiful here...
its funny every1 knows your new hahah...
hey ali ameem why do shias put a rock by there head when they sajda???

Salaam Amer

This is by far the most promising letter you have written upto date.

May Allah bless your efforts in attempting to associate yourself with both communities.
The political issues are disheartening, but they should be faced in one form or another.
We should not leave our children ignorant of the facts, ready for the others to criticise, without our knowledge.

Yes, our foundation is the Quran, and yes openely cursing can sometimes be untactful and offensive;
well, maybe it is better to leave it up to Allah to do that.

For somebody who is not in the HABIT of attending the mouning rites for The King of Martyrs Imam Hussein, yes, the Day of Ashura will always seem shocking.The Psychology and the purpose of weeping is a whole separate concept which may take time to discuss.

Let us say however, that this crying, which has been going on for over a 1400yrs is the weapon that Hezbollah had used to kick Isreal out of Lebonon and, it is the same weapon that Khomeini used to topple thousands of years of a consecutive monarchy in what is now known as Iran.
May Allah continue to bless you with the opportunities in attending the mourning ceremonies for Imam Hussein.

I pray with all my heart, that as well as doing your Hajj and Umrah, and visiting the shrine in Medina of Our Prophet Mohammed, and his grandchild Imam Hassan in the Jannatul Baqi, you will one day pay your condolences to his brother Imam Hussayn, on the day of Ashura, in the troubled and pained land that is Karbala.

May Allah increase your love of our Holy Prophet, through the love of his family, and their devoted companions.

Wassalaam

Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi

Salaam All,
Wooo...nice brothers AmerIslam and Ali Ameem!!
That's the spirit we all should have...masha-Allah.

(who is calling "NAZISHIA"...hahahaha...just kidding)

sayedinna, who do you think that old person was who met you in Bagdad? Does Hazrat Khizr's name ring the bell in your mind?

Talking about "rock" as you call it.... it is the piece of dirt from Karbala used by Shias to do sajdah during the prayer. The idea is that since Allah (swt) likes mankind to do sajdah on the soil or earth so it is important to do it the way He (swt) wants. Sometime it is hard to find a place where you can have clean dirt or soil, so shias have taken dirt from Karbala (considered Pak since Imam Husain's shrine is there)developped this thing as easy to carry it with them and use it for prayers.
Alos there are hadiths that Prophet (pbuh) did the same and sometime used a datepalm leaf or dirt for sijudah during the prayers.

salaam all,

i have been a muslim for many years and have always pondered on one historical insident that had taken place. This was about a great companion by the name of Amar ibne Yasir.

He was killed and biheaded by Muawiya father of Yazeed who was the killer of Hussein who is refered in the Quran 3:61 as a son of the Prophet and in Hadith as the one of the masters of youth in paradise.

Anyway, when Hussein's killers father who was Muawiya went towards Hajj he saw Hussein the son of the Prophet and stated in a taunt that "We killed Amar and others and after we killed them we shrowded them and then prayed the prayer for them and then burried them" This was a taunt as a great companion like Amaar ibne Yaseer was loved by all the pious.

Having heard what Muawiya had to say and as Muawiya awaited the retaliation, Hussein smilled and stated "If WE was to kill any of YOU then we would not shrowd you, nor would we pray the burial prayer for you and nor would we burry you".

Anyway, the moral of this factful insident is where i have been pondering over for many years, as Hussein the son of the Prophet and as a master of youth in paradise stated his retaliation, it goes to show that the on the death of a Muslim shrowding and the salaat and buryal is compalsary in all MAZHAB Fiqh that this was not going to be the case for Muawiya and therfore was Muawiya a Muslim???

Was salam

salams again,

Sayaduna

the english meaning of your name is our master which in fact is not a name that normal humans have as a real name. it is found to be refered to Allah (swt) as He is the almighty. Please refere to the nature of your name to your scholars.

I was wandering that in Iraq have they got broadband internet there yet or is it still dial up?

Anyway, again for clarification please refere to your scholars for this but when seeing a Prophet in your dream the most distinctive thing you would remember is the smell and not eye lashes. Secondly when you went to sleep and woke up is also a condition and on how you went to sleep. You cant just state things and expect me to beleive as having had a look into islam it has an answer for everything.

I finally ask again to refere to your scholars as what i say is true..

Finally, please may Allah Guide you and that you become a bit more honest with yourself about facts and life as dreams is not evident enough for the guidence to the true sect within Islam. As Islam is based on logic and that is not logic enough.

Was salams

salam.... hajji...

the history of my name goes.... i was a premature baby 2 months to early.... i was on the verge of death ALLAH HU AKBAR...
my mother went to bed that night and was so depressed she forgot to pray, eat, or say wailakum assalam to anyone who said it first to her... that night in her dream fatima RA went to her and said your son will survive if you name him sayedinna ilallahi alzaan ali al hassana al hussayni..........
so after that night she went to the hospital named me and within a few weeks i was back to stable condition... ALLAH HU AKBAR

so i dont think i need to go to a scholar for this one....

anyways the man asked me wat feature of his stood out the most..... and to me was his eyelashes.... brother or sister or watever you are lol (just kidding) if you see him as close as i did and hold him as much as i did then you will no its his eye lashes......
p.s i was a model before hand and its a fact that longer eyelashes change the whole image of your face.... longer eyelashes give you a sense of calmness around others and makes the foto more gentle on the eye.....
and wasnt he the most best man to be in the company of...
haji a lil more research before your questions please....
i wouldnt know if there was broadband or dial up here... probably is its pretty upto date even though i thought it wouldnt be.........im using my brother inlaws international satellite card and running it off my laptop while im in iraq .........
thankz for the info tod really appreciate it...
ali ameem and amerislam why cant other muslims be as honest as you guyz.......
anywayz peace
salams from iraq

was salams

i would still take that to the scholar as a person who never answered to a compulsory action of salaam and who also never prayed the daughter of the Prophet came to her!! look i'm too honest at times but i think your mom does meet the islamic conditions to accept that, that was Lady Fatima that came to her.. So please ask your scholars as they will clarify to you. Being nice and buying what you are saying from others does not nesiserily mean that it is a form of honesty.

So your a model too!! what next hey!! we will see!!

About your point in research, well i never write without an islamic point and you will find as mentioned before that one that sees the Prophet will distingtifully have only the smell to remember. Or is it that you are now trying to make a buck hear or there and want to make the Prophet into a best seller picture by using your modeling skills... (Astagfirula) You should ask your scholars that what is the punishment for mentally or physically drawing your Prophet and the truth will hurt my friend!!!

Anyway, i wanted to chat about Islam... I wanted to clarify at this point that i am a Shia Muslim and have been a student for a number of years. I wanted to chat about many things but using Hadith or the Holy Quran and not dreams. People call me Kafir but that i will say is through their ignorance. People state that we are miss guided and again through ignorance. I mean the whole islamic sunni school of thought should sit down for a moment and just see where their thought comes from and they will find that it was from the 6th Shia Imam Sadiq (as). What contradicts the matter is the fact that from 1 teacher they have 4 thoughts. They also accept the Jaffery school of thought as being a 5th but again call us kafir!! Am i missing a ppoint hear or something?? That makes no sence to me. It's like 4 of us going to school and getting tought by our teacher while we are ignorant. After getting taught we pass the same exam. Then we go off and have 4 different thoughts that contradict one another and then to top it off we turn around to our teacher and say "ok sir, we have thought hard and feel that you just make it into our gang but be carefull as there are some of us who feel its not good enough"!!!!!!!!!

What a laugh!! How ignorant.

I want to start and want to show you though the teachings of your original teacher Imam Sadiq (as) to what is the true Islam and fade out any small difrences that are there. If i need to prove from Imam Bukhari (the Persian) or any other sourse than that even the better as it will be no argument for you as then you will not be accepting your own traditions.

Anyway, I pray 5 times a day. Its better to pray after a gap but there is no diference or objection in combining my prayers that are the Zohr and Asr and Magrib and Isha. I hope you agree. As the following will help.

It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Abbas, that he said that the Messenger of Allah prayed Zuhr and Asr together, and also Maghrib and Isha, although he was neither in a state of fear nor on a journey.
Saheeh Muslim, Vol. I, p.264

Ibn Abbas narrates that the Messenger of Allah recited Zuhr and Asr prayers together, and also said Maghrib and Isha prayers, although he was neither in a state of fear, nor was there any other cause, e.g. rain. It is related from Waki that he asked Ibn Abbas the reason (for the joint prayers). Ibn Abbas replied: So that the followers (of the Prophet) may not experience inconvenience and difficulty.
(1) Saheeh Muslim, Vol. I, p.265
(2) Jami Tirmizee, p. 54

Abdullah Bin Shaqeeq narrates that one day after Asr prayer, Ibn Abbas began delivering a sermon which was so long that the sun set and the stars appeared. People began to shout: Salat! Salat! (as it was time for Maghrib prayer). Ibn Abbas paid no heed to them until someone from Bani Tameem stood up and shouted continuously: Salat! Salat! Ibn Abbas responded: Woe unto you! You wish to teach me the Sunnat? He said: I have personally seen the Messenger of Allah pray Zuhr and Asr prayers together, and likewise, the Maghrib and Isha prayers.

The narrator says: This statement of Ibn Abbas kept disturbing my conscience until I went and asked Abu Huraira about it, and he attested to what Ibn Abbas had said.
Saheeh Muslim, Vol. 1 p. 265

It is related from Ibn Abbas that the Prophet at one time recited seven rakats of prayers, and at another time eight rakats, i.e. he recited Maghrib and Isha prayers together, and Zuhr and Asr prayers together.
Saheeh Bukhari, Part I, p.72

It is narrated by Ibn Abbas that in Medina the Prophet used to recite two prayers together (Zuhr and Asr, and Maghrib and Isha), without there being any fear or rainfall. When asked about the reason for this, he said: The Prophet desired that his followers may not suffer inconvenience, and therefore the two prayers may be recited together.
Sunan Nasaee, p. 290

Mind you that in Sahih Bukhari is classed as the most sahih book after the Quran. Imam Bukhari states in the opening of his 9 volumes that from all the Hadith that i have memorised the most authenticated hadith are compiled in these 9 volumes. Therfore, there is no room hear for any muslim to state that "this is weak and this is strong" as you just therfore dont accept Bukhari.

So my combination of prayer like all the muslim empire do in their return from Araf'at to Mina in the Hajj actions do only to say that i do it more often is ok in accordance to many sourses unless you can state that what i say i wrong.

Was salams
Hajji

salam every1......
man just wen we thought unity was found hajji comes in and messes it all up.....
anyways thats life...
what i have seen i have seen whys it itching you.... and i have met a scholar and he did say that his eyelashes if not his smell is a extremely prominent feature....
i mean a guy with long eyelashes is bound to catch your eye...
anyways...
me buck hearing here and there my ass.... i saw wat i saw... and it was it....
you know its sad to see people who donot see the prophet SAS not believing the people that do... is this jealousy.....hmmmmmm i think so...by the way thats why shaitaan was banished from allahs heavens....
well me being polite and nice is me being a muslim.... its fard and sunnat....
o and quick note.... i didnt take a pik or draw one of the prophet SAS i was simply putting it into reality.... but it seems like you dont know what that is...
you will see the prophet SAS face on judgement day and you will see his eyelashes...ALLAH HU AKBAR....
dont be jealous hes got better eyelashes than you, theres always mascara.. LOL
yeah and by the way my callin name is alzaan ali... so people here dont call me sayedinna.... that was the bond between my parents and allah...
sayedinna means -master of... right..... so the name was given so that with that name "the master of all creation would be sacrificed in just a title....
so allah is showing his power that by just my name in a child he can be saved... allahs karamat... o wait should i ask a scholar if he has any....LOL
and also the dream was written and directed to brothers TOD AND ALI AMEEM... not you... it was about islam we aint talking about dreams...
you should learn this sunnat... not to but in, in other peoples business....
if you listen or read or watever and it wasnt directed at you do not comment on it....
salams
like i said before hajji...learn some before you speak some......
allah hu akbar
hey ali ameem, tod, and amerislam.....

sallam brother and sisters

give sallam,to every muslims in Irqa
may Iraq be free from these evil doers,we know how

HAJJI,do shia accept bukhari or not getting confused.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

was salams...

Firstly did you all see the way aparant veiwer of the prophet uses foul language after seeing the blessed prophet. Its a shame that you were not blessed by this. What was that shatan was kicked out from the couryard of Allah!! Well that is proof that even persons amongst good things are not nesiserrily good themselves so like the prophet and those amongst him does not mean that they were all good as they can be like satan.

As having an arabic degree i will state the implied meaning of your name through grammer. Your aparant name is split into two. 1. Sayad 2. una. The first that means master or masure and also is refered to in another word which is maula, as more then one person would stae sayad or if we refere master for all of us then we will use the plural second part of your parant name which una and means our so that the combined name would mean 'our master'. This in all suplications if you have any, is such a high status name that no human has got this name and is refered to Allah (swt) but as Bukhari (the Persian) states in his Sahih Allah created Adam in His own reflection of 30 feet tall!!! The sahih has made Allah in a mortal look and i now understand where you get your name and how it has been plased on a mortal.

I did however ask you an islamic question but it seems that you was too indulgded into defence that you forgot to even mention this. Spiritual defects are in the mirror as well if you look.

As for the accusation that the Prophets eyelashes are looking better then mine, well, how do you know? did you see me in a dream? so in refrence to reality i think you should come to terms with truth and falshood.

By the way you said that the word 'right' comes from your parent name but my freind right in arabic is 'haq' so yes, please refere to your scholar as if not other scholars then i myself can educate you.

Not to but into other peoples business may be right but you write on a forum that is open to all and you basically brought your business to me, so i think you should have a rest and a think at the same time before you write. Also when there are those amongst us in the nation of Islam who try to brainwash others it become my 'FARD' in accordance to the Quran to enjoin good and forbid evil....

Anyway i am sorry for being blunt but i thought you wanted to chat about islam so i did make a large refrence to Islam that you want to chat about but you made no refrence back. Lets move on shall we as there is alot to discuss and leave this topic about dreams behind as it is becomming very childish and swaying from the subject.

Brother AmerIslam, I used the Hadith of some of the Sahih e Sita so a sunni can not really not accept my actions as he would be going against his own sunnah. Do i acept the sahih bukhari? Well salaman Rushdie got all his matirial from that book. Have you ever read it? as would not accept that book.

hope we can have a reply to my combining of prayers

was salaams
hajji

bro im pretty sure you cannot combine prayers.....
hold up ill find some info on my break back to baghdad......sweet

(dnt worry the dream will come back to the convo but later)

salam

salam every1,
what i dont get ok not meaning to offend any1 here... is why do the shia cut there body with shafts and swords and chains........
isnt it haram to hurt your body in anyway from alcohol to tattoos... the body belongs to allah and not us........ i mean in memory and mourning for the great ones who lived before is nice but isnt bending the rules alil to far???.......

salams

back again...... salamz

haji--- sayedinna means -master of... right.....
i meant to say sayedinna means: master of.
when i said right, that was me speaking to you in conversational literature...

lol.... dont worry a common misinterpretation

salam

Salaam Seyyedina

From what I'm understanding here is that you're parents named you after one of the names of Allah. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Brother, if I was you and in such an historicaly Islamic important place as Iraq, then I would NOT be on the internet but busying myself with visting the important holy sites, speaking to scholars, both Sunni AND Shia, to get your questions answered AND further your knowledge!

You should put your laptop away, leave the bazaars and get to Abdul Qaadir al Jilaani's shrine as soon as possible. When you've done that you can write back to us and tell us what you saw and experienced.

From this point on, proir to leaving Baghdad at least, it is ESSENTIAL that you visit the shrine of Imam Jaafer us Sadiq's son the 7th Imam Musa e Kazim.You owe it to both me and Tod to say a prayer there for our us at the shrine of our ancestral Imam. We will all be sorely dissapointed if you do not!

In return for this what I can PROMISE you is the next time I am in Baghdad I shall visit the shrine of al Jilani on your behalf.

With ONLY two weeks in Iraq I hope your preparations for Najaf and Karbala are in hand. WITHOUT A DOUBT this has to be the high point of your journey.

You believe in Shifaa right ? Ya Muhammed, Ya Ali and all that? Well THESE are the places to get your prayers answered so PLEASE make use of your time wisely.

Aside from this I WOULD like to say,
personally, I thought your dream was amazing (which it is) but I had not implied that I didn't believe you dreamt it.

It seems to be yourself that is implying other people do not believe you.

Regardless. I typed up 'Dreams about Mohammed' on the internet and found a very interesting article written by our Sunni brothers.

It has been recorded in what I think is an authenticated sunni tradition that somebody had dreamed that Mohammed pbuh had informed him that, it was ok to drink alcohol.

Whilst according to the Sunni standard that, within a dream it is impossible for Mohammed to be impersonated, in this particular circumstance the exception was made, due to the unislamic nature of the dream.

ie it may NOT have been Mohammed that he saw.

From questioning a scholar recently upon the issue, he informed me that, according to the SHIA standard ONE of the prerequisites for the dreamer to affirm he had seen Mohammed is that The Final Prophet, in full and clear wording introduces himself as such, so as to leave no doubt.

We may conclude that IF a person is able to purport that Mohammed has agreed the drinking of alcohol within his own dream, than most certainly, the possibilities lie open for the dreamer to imagine circumstances relating to The Prophet, that contradict the outcome of historicaly factual evidence.

Differrent topic.

Seyyed Mohammed Baqir al Sadr was a great Scholar of profound reputation having written CLASSIC works such as 'Our philosophy' which combats movements such as Socialism, Communism, Capitalism etc in favour of Islamism.

Saddam Hussein had him murered in the 1980's but his legacy lives on, through the revolution in Iran, as he had an instrumental role to play alongside the Irani Clergymen.He lived his life in Baghdad having studied in Najaf.I might decide to paste some information about him should any one care to read it later on.

See what you can find out about him yourself whilst your out there Seyyidina.

PS.the pictures of ulama, and the actual people themselves with black turbans and cloaks; they're our relatives.

Wassalaam

was salams

why do the shia cut there body with shafts and swords and chains........

This is a great topic but it makes me laugh that you never had much to say about the combination prayers. Was that it??

Anyway, your question was put in an ignorant way and shows me that you are after all a joker that wants not to find the truth or discuss islam but want to fire away what is in your head in retaliation to my authenticated sunni hadith that was handed to you.

I on the other hand, am always ready for people like you as i have not squated flies for several years and can use true islam to correct you. the more you quickly flip onto subjects without your point only shows your defeat in the subject.

The answer to your new question is very easy and a test on your self IMAAN if you really are a follower of the Sunnah.

In breif, There was a historical charecter by the name of Oais Karni who was a great follower and lover of the Prophet (saws). He was so much in practise to his religion that he was always at home looking after his sick mother. One day, he heard news that the prophet had lost one of his teeth and had shaken Oais up as he loved the prophet. Due to the love he had Oais in turn hit his mouth and knocked one of his teeth out. He then thought that it might not have been this paticular tooth and then knocked another out. He ended up with no teeth. He did this action through love that he had for the Prophet of Allah.

Another naration will lead you to the battle of Ohad, A battle where a few muslims fled from the prophet due to lack of Imaan, but this was the battle where Hamza who was the uncle of the prophet was martyred. The prophet went to his uncles body and wept and stated that if there was only people to weap for my uncle. A group came and started to beat their thighs and together the prophet had wept.

There are more evidences that will bring me to conclude but in the above two historical facts it shows that the prophet never said it was Haraam. In fact on the first incident you find that the prophet heard of what Oais had done when news came to him but the prophet in turn smilled.

We need to refere to what the Sunnah is now and break up this word. The sunnah in both shia and sunni schools is recognized as a combination of three things. 1. being the FE'EL (action) 2. being the COAL (Words or verbal naration) and 3. Takreer (being something that is done in the presence of the prophet where by if it is wrong he should say it or where by if nothing is said then the action was ok)

What Oais had done went to the prophet and in this time we can observe that TAKREER was done as the Quran even states that Enjoin good and forbid evil is an obligation, so if Oais was self inflicting then are you saying that the prophet never followed the orders of Allah?? Or if you still carry on to say that it was Haraam then you my freind dont accept the Sunnah and makes you a Kafir.

The Prophet (saws) said 'Every action is based on intention'

Water which is mustahab to drink in the daylight can become Makrooh in the same posistion if drank at night and also can become Haraam in the daylight if one is fasting and can become Wajib if one is dying of thirst.

You see brother you need to have logic to understand Islam as circumstances change and can have a diferent law in that situation.

So as for the love of certain companions have had and as shown to you in the above narations that weaping in a different forms and levels like the love it has diferent forms and levels has proved to be ok in accordance to the Sunnah of the prophet and in the same way if the Shia are the only ones who weap for the grandson of the prophet 'a master of youth in paradise' through their love then i have not seen any problem but only see a problem for those who have not the heart and call themselves the followers of prophet but when the prophet went they laugh and taunt his family as if you in reality had loved me it will show that when i die how will you look after my family.

In this case family is Fatima (sa) the dauter and it was her house that was burnt and where she miscaraged her unborn son....

Hussein (sa) the son as well as mentioned in the Quran in 3:61.. the saviour the master of youth of paradise, he was slained and be headed by the son of Muawiya, yazeed (curse on him)...

You see brother you have brought in a very good subject to be honest as the beating that the shias do is from kerballa's happenings and it is from here that you will see the true faces of islam that you have followed... so stay on the subject..

If there is anything you have islamical that you can tell or show me otherwise then accept the sunnah of the prophet and we will move on to Fatima (sa) and also Hassan (as) and Hussein (as) and Ali (as) as i will show you through thr the happenings of history that who were companions and who were not RIGHTFULLY companions..

Was salsams
Hajji

Salaam Hajji!

To note your comment

'You see brother you have brought in a very good subject to be honest as the beating that the shias do is from kerballa's happenings, and it is from here that you will see the true faces of islam that you have followed... so stay on the subject.'

It has been a long time since since I've heard anybody hit the nail on the head like that!

I myself used to wonder, as a child and even teenager why we, the Shia did Matam (chest beating). But it was through my ignorance that I failed to understand.

Prior to leaving for University to do my studies I made a concerted effort to make the decision and find out what the crux of these differences were betwixt the Sunni and Shia.

I attended many lectures in the Sunni mosques travelling also to different counties, spending time with my Sunni brothers, sitting with them, eating with them.

One particularly close friend of mine actually used to have a copy of the Nahjul Balaghah (he was a Sunni)and praised it greatly having it usually on display upon the cabinet.

I think perhaps he was taking an interest in Shi'ism. Perhaps I was taking an interest in Sunni'ism.

But one evening I called around for him and The Nahjul Balaghah was no longer upon the cabinet. I asked him 'Why'? He said brother there are many wrong things in there, I can no longer bear to read it. I questioned him further.

He said, "Muawiah was a close Sahabah of Rasollullah. Allah had promised him heaven. So why on earth is Imam Ali speaking to Muawiah in these letters, in such a harsh tone? No brother. Ali's tongue was not like this".

I became concerned. For the Shi'ah, Nahjul Balagha is second to the Quran. We hear sometimes that the Sunni's do not consider this book to be written by Imam Ali at all. The reply of the Shi'ah to this is that if Imam Ali was not the one who wrote Nahjul Balaghah, then the person who wrote Nahjul Balagha WAS Imam Ali.

Such is the common sense in this book it defy's al Bukhari many times over.

Yet I had not read, or even heard of Muawiah before. A Sahabah? And I left my friends house wondering about him, and who he was.

This time was MY time to figure out who I was. Like Amer, I would sometimes pray with my arms folded at the Sunni Mosques and sometimes with my arms open with the Shi'ahs.

Finally it was my sister who was also at the RESEARCH stage of her life (much more into it than I had been) who answered my question for me - you see, up until that point I hadn't even bothered discussing things like this with her.

It was a short conversation. I asked her "Who was Muawiah"? She answered. "Once I brought a book home from the library about him. Dad saw it, looked at it and started arguing and shouting with me, so I gave the book back to the library".

"Yes", I said, " but who WAS he "?

" He was a man who fought a war against Imam Ali ", she said.

I thought WHAT! AND he was a Sahabah?!

"Oh yeah, that's not all", she said, "HE WAS YAZID'S DAD".

It was only at THAT point when I suddenely, immediately and instantaneiously realised WHY THE SHI'AHS DO MATAM!

Perhaps my naivity of this whole affair may surprise other Shi'ah's but I was genuinely untutored and had cared little for the content of what the maulana's had been preaching from the minbar up until that time.

Now I realise there is a whole sea of knowledge, that is available, there for us, if we but wish to show concern for it.

My request once again to everyone is do not turn away from the blatant truths of history.

For there is a community of mourners out there who have made it their business to remind you, on a YEARLY basis of The HYPOCRISY that targeted Imam Ali and his son Imam Hussein.

May Allah increase your knowledge Hajji.

Let us pray also for Seyyidinna, that he bears in mind the struggles of his holy Imam Ali, as he approaches his Holy Shrine in Najaf.

Wassalaam

was salams

Thank you for your inspiring and determonation in seeking more knoledge brother Ameem. May Allah (swt) increase all our knowledge. There is no better way then to start by going to the door for the Prophet stated 'I am the city of knoledge and Ali is it's gate, so he who desires the city then come through it's gate'...

It's a shame that your freind had to remove that book without any research into the matter.

I had met one perticular brother who spent time and lived with me in the middle east while i was there but was a non shia and during his stay with me, the person that i am, i was always trying to get into his head untill one day all was revealed. He hatted us, he felt we were miss guided, he felt he was commiting a sin by living with me.. When i debated with him and that was through history, it came to a point that i realized that this brother was only pasionate about his habbits that were taught to him from childhood. When history was placed before him, he found it hard to accept as a story was placed into his mind that made a stream to his heart which made it IMAAN for him, but the truth always sparks out more.

I said to him 'Brother there are 2 sourses from which you obtain your Imaan from which is the two things that you say were left by the prophet. one was the Quraan and the other was the Sunnah.. In these two sourses you will find that the Quran mentions the Ahlul Bait and their status and also in the Sunah you will find that their is thousands of refrences to the Ahlul Bait. Brother your daily prayers that are compalsary made by Allah to you, in there you send blessings to the family of the prophet as if you dont your prayer is void.
The main and only sourses that you take your faith from all consist of the Ahlul Bait, do you not think that Allah will not ask you that i placed for you the Ahlul Bait in the Quran and in the Sunnah and also showd you that without you not blessing them in the prayers i will not accept it. Why have you therfore placed these people in the shadows. Why did you not accept them.."

This made him think very hard, he changed towards me and started to respect me through his behaviour and was always asking questions. He changed many of his actions and respected the Ahlul Bait after that. I then moved on with my life and he did too.

Brother Ali Ameen, there is so much refrence to the Ahlul bait.. History shows the faces of persons who state to be humble but show their true colours. It is not to say that the leader of a muslim empire is a humble man as if it did then Sadaam who was a leader should also become humble. The battle of Sifeen, One of the first companions of the Prophet Amaar Ibne Yaseer and others were martyred on that day. This war was between the Imam Ali and Muawiya. Amaar the great companion was on the side of Ali and not Muawiya. Muawiya was the ruller of that time. The Quran states that 'to kill one muslim is like the killing of a whole nation'. What are the sunni going to call Amaar ibne Yaseer a non muslim? Whos parents were the first martyres of Islam!! What would therfore be the status of Muawiya in accordance to the Quran? What is his status?

I take it that some still may say humble as he was a leader but remember he killed a nation, he killed one of the first companions of the prophet who all sunni call a sahaba and it is a evil sin to say anything bad about a sahabah in accordance to the sunni so what would happen to he who killed one?

Was salams
Hajji

salamz every1....
man i never knew there was so many yazidilite sunnis here.....
may allah give them hediat....
i dont understand how they can call yazid a great man...
he was a munky.... i heard a story from this old lady here in iraq who said that yazid slapped upon the lips of the beautiful face of hassayn RA with a iron bar... after he behead him and his head was on a stick, because it kept reciting la illah ha ilallah muhammedur rasoul allah.............
and wen a man said "why do you beat the lips that the prophet SAS kissed " that man that said these words was executed.......ALLAH HU AKBAR.....
people here love the ahlul bait...... masha allah
how can you like yazid...
its impossible.........
theres so many beautiful piks of ali RA here....
ali ameem i will visit the shrine you told me to and give your salams and blessings allah willingly......
salams every1

hussayn TYPO sorry

sallam bro/sis
I think people beating them selves and wailing and or what not is unislamic.I think the hadith about the man ripping his teeth out is about overboard,i dont think the HolyProphet(pbuh) would accept such curelty and self abuse.
In the Holy Quran The prophet(pbuh) "says do not make me like they did to my brother Issa(pbuh)"
what he meant by this is that dont cruxify me,dont make me a son nor a god,dont celibrate my birth or my death(Easter) and give me the same status that the non belivers have given Issa(pbuh).
Christians in philippines cruxify them selves to feel what Jesus went through,they think its an act of worshipp(istrafallah)

About joing prayers,how do they do it at The True holy place MECCA(hajj)
SALLAM BROTHER : sayedinna ilallahi ali al hassana al hussayni i hope you increase your imman,you are very lucky person to be in iraq,i wish i can be their one day inshallah but not as a visitor but as a mujahdeed inshallah

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salam sayedinna!!

You are making me cry for Imam Husain (as)...

This is one of the historic fact the old lady mentioned to you but there are more...Karbala is not only a history but it is the history of Islam's revival. If you are Muslim today (Shia or Sunni does not matter) it is just because of that supreme sacrifice of Imam Husain (as) in Karbala. This sacrifice was promised to Prophet Abraham when the sacrifice of his son Ishmael was accepted by Allah (swt) and he was told that his sacrifice was replaced by a supreme sacrifice.
Ever thought, what that promised supreme sacrifice was? Was the promise to scarify millions of goats, cows and camels each year at Eid Adha by Muslims? No, obviously not since the Ram was already slaughtered instead of Prophet’s Abraham’s son Ishmael. It was the sacrifice of Imam Husain (as) indicated there to Prophet Abraham. Slaughter of Imam Husain (as) and his family was the supreme sacrifice to save Islam.

Imam Husain's head was raised on a spear and his lips were reciting verses from Quran. All other martyrs’ heads were also raised on spears including Imam Husain's 6 months old baby "Ali Ashgar". Can you imagine what kinds of people Imam Husain fighting against? They were not people they were cruel animals and sons of Shaitan.

Think about the women and children who were made prisoner and sent to Kuffa and then to Syria mounted on camels. The speed of camels was such that children were bouncing out from mother’s lap and landing on hot sand and left there to die by Yazid’s army. All women were tied up by their hands to the camels and they could not even try to rescue their children and just yell and cry in desperation. There are still many graves of those children around that area.

Think about Imam Husain’s sister Bibi Zainab. She was Imam Ali’s daughter, no wonder she was so brave. She bluntly gave sermon in Yazid’s palace in the same accent as Imam Ali (as) used to speak. And think of the time when Yazeed tried to kill Bibi Zainab then the old Lady Fizza came in front of Bibi Zainab to protect her. (Lady Fizza was the maid of Bibi Fatima (sa) the daughter of the Prophet (pbuh)) Yazid gave order to kill Lady Fizza but she challenged the Habashi guards and told them that she was from their tribes and how can they stand and watch this without doing anything. History says that 500 swords were pulled out from their sheets by the guards and they demanded from Yazeed that Lady Fizza should be left alone with other ladies. That was the “Jihad” of the Bibi Zainab and other captive women. Indeed that was the part of the supreme sacrifice!!

I can go on and on and tell you more as this has been going on in Majlises for the last 1365 years. I pray to Allah (wst) that keeps the memories of Imam Husian’s sacrifices alive for the guidance of humanity. Ameen

Salaam AmerIslam!!

You are entitled to your opinion. Don’t think in matters of Islam, just show us the proof that it is wrong. Allah (swt) had already thought the religion before He (swt) sent Prophets to guide mankind. So you don’t have to think just do as the Prophets teach you to do. That’s where you will get reward on doing things (A’mal) not thinking things in your mind.
Allah (swt) does not give reward or punishment on your thinking. For example, if you think of giving Zakat but you do not give in reality. Would you get a reward? NO you would not. Similarly, say you think killing someone but don’t kill. Would you get punishment from Allah (swt).No you would not. So here we go…don’t think just do it…get some references and then argue please. LOL

We always give you references and names of the books acceptable to you and your scholars. The hadith Ali Ameem had written is 100% correct and it is also listed in many books acceptable to your scholars. So try to save your thinking for later…LOL

A friendly advice: Keep yourself away from people who beat themselves in mourning of Imam Husain (as).
Imagine if they beat others what will happen to them?

Oh boy…don’t get mad on me now…LOL

Salaam brothers and sisters in Islam.

Boy! The commentaries are coming in hard and fast.

Dear Amer.

There is an issue here with the Shia about what is permissable and non permissable in the way of the behaviour of mourning, many of our sunni scholars MAY also agree with the principal logic that I am about to explain.

When we consider to do something that is not necesserily directed toward spiritual gain, such as competetive boxing, bodybuilding or even plain running what we usually find is that injuries are sustained at one point or another.

From oligatory blisters, to bruises and muscle strain.

The purpose for body building may be to merely have a more shapely physical structure, to seem more powerful or attractive to other people. But in the process of this the muscle fibres are actually torn - the body builder rests during which process the fibres heal through rush of blood and the muscles in turn, become more expansive.

The damage that HAD been done has now been healed - and there is not a scholar on earth who can say that what he had practiced in the way of exerting himself to the point of physical erosion, is haram.

Perhaps it is because the bodybuilder has detatched his whole experience from 'The Islamic' that Islamic peoples care not for passing fatwas that this type of training is haram.

Hurting ourselves to the point whereby the damage is repairable, seems to be acceptable enough for a purpose that could be unrelated to The Madhhab, but fascinatingly when it comes to putting an Islamic label upon 'Lamenting for Mohammeds Family' then the fatwas against the Shia abound from 'it is haram to harm your body', to 'it is haram to cry'.

Why?

Is it because we have decided to forsake crying as the Sunnis do, for our OWN family members and have decided to CRY for Mohammed's instead? Surely our actions shed light upon the historical accounts of cruelty that were targeted toward Fatema tu Zahra, Imam Ali, Imam Hassan AND Imam Hussein.

In this I think lies the seriousness of the Problem. PUBLIC MOURNING brings about 'those' taboo issues of Islamic History into the light of the socio political context and forces people to ask WHY and WHAT FOR.

A man cuts himself, the wound is healed some days later by the grace of a scar.

Many would argue that this is safer than smoking, OR eating oily food on a regular basis.

It is the OPEN SHOCK element that gets people but that is exactly what it is meant to do, for the Events of the day of Ashura, when Imam Hussayn's head was severed from it's body, WERE shocking.

We have wished during the centuries, to bring into play the ATMOSPHERE of that day, that time, that place. And, it is due to THIS media that today, Sunni's around the world over have come to terms with REJECTING Muawiah's son YAZID.This is my firm feeling and belief - without sounding trying to sound arrogant Amer & Seyyedina, you can thank THE SHIA for that.

Yes. Awais Qirni did knock his teeth out

This 'overboard' hadith that we mention Amer is not from the Shi'a, it is from the authenticated works of al Bukhari for which I have seen myself.

Apparently Mohammed, upon hearing of this incident was known to have SMILED. So infact, there was no dissaproval at all. The funny thing is that some Shias reject the validity of this event - but the Sunnis have verified it themselves as being authentic, for us to use as evidence.

I have been to Awais Qirni's grave in Syria; it lies next to the famed Sahabah Amaar ibne Yaasir, in Raqqa, at that ancient battle field which is still known as Siffeen.

Yes, I have been to that battle field to visit these two great Sahabah, Ammaar ibne Yaasir and Awais Qirni who were Shaheed at the hands of Muawiah's henchmen.

These people REALLY DID love Imam Ali more than their own lives.

They did not bandy about the sides of the battlefield, wondering as to whose side they should be on. These were the REAL SAHABAH, Ammaar, Awais, Salman Farsi, Bilal Habashi, Abu Dharr Ghiffari, Miqdad, Maythem e Tammar - none of these were EVER seen to be vying for the Khilaafat and ALL of them were persecuted by their fellow SAHABAH via torture and trickery - for their stand in supporting the TRUE Master of The Believers, Imam Ali ibne Abi Taalib, from the outset.

Yes. It is so easily said Amer that we wish to be Mujahid in Iraq. But before you even think of doing such a thing, I advice you first of all to pay your allegiences to The Imam Ali and The Imam Hussayn at their respective shrines, lest you find yourself in the army of another Muawiah, lest you find yourself in the army of another Yazid.

Wassalaam

Salaam Brothers

This is a descent read if any body's interested. Alternatively, continue with topical discussion.

A Meeting with Al Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al Sadr

I went with Abu Shubbar to al-Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr's house, and on the way he honoured me and talked to me about the famous Ulama and about Taqlid (adoption of a legal decision by the Mujtahid) and so on ... until we entered the house where we found al Sayyid al Sadr surrounded by many young turbaned students. Al-Sayyid stood up and greeted us, then I was introduced to him and he welcomed me warmly and sat me next to him. After that he started asking me about Tunisia and Algeria and about famous Ulama like al-Khidr Husayn and al-Thahir ibn Ashoor and others. I enjoyed his talk, and despite his high position and the great respect he commands from his students, I found myself at ease with him and felt as if I had known him before.

I benefitted so much from that meeting because I listened to the questions asked by the students and his answers to them, also I appreciated then the idea of adopting the decision of the living Ulama who could answer all sorts of questions directly and clearly. I became convinced that the Shia are Muslims worshipping Allah alone, who believe in the message of our Prophet Muhammad (saw). At the beginning I suspected that what I saw was just acting, or perhaps as they call it Taqiyyah, i.e. they show what they do not believe; but these suspicions disappeared quickly since it was inconceivable that the hundreds of people that I saw or heard coordinated their acting, and why should there be acting any- way? Besides who was I, and why should they be concerned about me to the extent that they used Taqiyyah with me? And all their books, whether they were old ones that had been written centuries ago or the newly published ones, all professed the unity of Allah and praise His Messenger Muhammad (saw). There I was, in the house of al-Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr, the famous religious authority inside Iraq and outside it, and every time the name of Muhammad (saw) was mentioned, the entire audience shouted in one voice "May Allah's blessings be upon Muhammad and his household."

When the time for prayer was due, we left the house and went to the mosque, which was next door, and al-Sayyid Muhammad al-Sadr led the midday and afternoon prayers. I felt as if I was living among the Companions (of the Prophet), for there was a solemn invocation from one of the men who had a moving voice, and when he finished the invocation the whole audience shouted, "May Allah's blessing be upon Muhammad and his household." The invocation was basically to thank and glorify Allah, the Great Majesty, and then Muhammad (saw) and his good and purified posterity.

After the prayer, al-Sayyid sat in the Mihrab (the prayer niche) and people came to greet him, some asked him private questions, others asked him general questions, and he answered each one of them accordingly. When the person obtained an answer for his question, he kissed the hand of al- Sayyid then left, what lucky people to have such a dignified learned Imam who lives their experiences and solves their problems.

Al-Sayyid showed me so much care and generosity to the extent that I forgot all about my family and tribe, and felt that if I stayed for one month with him, I would have become a Shii, because of his manners, modesty and generosity. Whenever I looked at him he smiled and asked me if I needed anything, and I did not leave his company during the four days, only when I wanted to go to sleep. There were many visitors who came to see him from all over the world; there were Saudi Shii from Hijaz, others came from Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Turkey and Black Africa; and al-Sayyid spoke to each one of them and solved their problems, later they left him feeling happy and comforted. Here I would like to mention a case which was brought to al-Sayyid when I was in his company, and I was very impressed by the way he dealt with it. I mention it because of its historical importance so that the Muslims know what they have lost by leaving the rule of Allah.

Four men, who were probably Iraqis, judging by their accents, came to see al-Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr. One of them had inherited a house from his grandfather, who had died a few years ago, and had sold that house to a second person (he was present then). One year after the completion of the sale, two brothers came and proved that they were also legal inheritors of the dead man (i.e. the father). The four of them sat before al-Sayyid and each one of them produced a number of papers and deeds, which al-Sayyid read, and after he spoke for a few minutes with the men, he passed a fair judgement. He gave the purchaser the full right to his house, and asked the seller to pay to his two brothers their shares from the selling price, and after that they stood up and kissed al-Sayyid's hand and embraced each other. I was astonished about what had happened and asked Abu Shubbar, "Has the case ended?" He said, "Yes, everyone received his right. Praise be to Allah!" In such case, and in such a short time, only a few minutes, the problem was solved. A similar case in our country would have taken at least ten years to resolve, some of the plaintiffs would die and their sons resume the case; often the legal costs exceed the price of the house. The case would move from the Magistrate Court to the Appeal Court to the Court of Review, and at the end no one is satisfied, and hatred between People and Tribes are created.

Abu Shubbar commented, We have the same thing if not worse." I asked, "How?" He said, if people take their cases to the state courts, then they would go through the same troubles which you have just mentioned, but if they follow the Religious Authority and commit themselves to the Islamic Laws, then they would take their cases to him and the problem would be solved in a few minutes, as you saw. And what is better than the Law of Allah for people who could comprehend? Al-Sayyid al-Sadr did not charge them one Fils, but if they went to the state courts, then they would have paid a high price."

I said, "Praise be to Allah! I still cannot believe what I have seen, and if I had not seen it with my eyes, I would not have believed it at all."

Abu Shubbar said, "You do not have to deny it brother, this is a simple case in comparison with other more complicated ones which involve blood. Even so, the Religious Authorities do consider them, and it takes them a few hours to resolve." I said with astonishment, "Therefore you have two governments in Iraq, a government of the state and a government of the clergy. He replied, "No, we have a government of the state only, but the Muslims of the Shii Madhhab who follow the Religious Authorities, have nothing to do with the government of the state, because it is not an Islamic government. They are subjects of that government simply because of their citizenship, the taxes, civil laws and personal status; so if a committed Muslim had an argument with a non committed Muslim, then the case must be taken to the state courts, because the latter would not accept the judgement of the Religious Authorities. However, if two committed Muslims had an argument, then there is no problem, whatever the Religious Authorities decide is acceptable to all parties. Thus, all cases seen by the Religious Authorities are solved on a day-to-day basis, whereas other cases linger on for months and years."

It was an incident that made me feel content with rule of Allah, praise be to Him the Exalted one, which helped me to comprehend the words of Allah in His Glorious Book:

... And whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers (Holy Qur'an 5:44).

... And whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust (Holy Qur'an 5:45).

... And whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors (Holy Qur'an 5:47).

That incident aroused in me feelings of anger and resentment about those who change the just rules of Allah with some unjust, man-made rules. They even go further, and with all impudence and sarcasm, they criticize the divine rules and condemn them for being barbaric and inhuman because it draws the limits. cuts the hand of the thief, stones the adulterer and kills the killer. So where did all these new theories, that are foreign to us and our culture come from? There is no doubt they came from the West and from the enemies of Islam who know that the application of Allah's rules mean their inevitable destruction because they are thieves, traitors, adulterers, criminals and murderers.

I had many discussions with al-Sayyid al-Sadr during these days, and I asked him about everything I had learnt through the friends who talked to me about their beliefs and what they thought about the Companions of the Prophet (saw), and about Ali and his sons ... beside many other issues that we used to disagree upon.

I asked al-Sayyid al-Sadr about Imam Ali and why they testify for him in the Adhan [the call for prayers] that he is "Waliy Allah" [the friend of Allah]. He answered me in the following way:

The Commander of the Believers, Ali, may Allah's blessings be upon him, was one of those servants of Allah whom He chose and honoured by giving them the responsibilities of the Message after His Prophet. These servants are the trustees of the Prophet (saw), since each prophet has a trustee, and Ali ibn Abi Talib is the trustee of Muhammad (saw).

We favour him above all the Companions of the Prophet (saw) because Allah and the Prophet favoured him, and we have many proofs of that, some of them are deduced through logical reasoning, others are found in the Qur'an and al-Sunnah [the Tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (saw)], and these proofs cannot be suspect, because they have been scrutinized, and proven right, by our own learned people (who wrote many books about the subject) and those of the Sunni Madhahibs. The Umayyad regime worked very hard to cover this truth and fought Imam Ali and his sons, whom they killed. They even ordered people, sometimes by force, to curse him, so his followers - may Allah bless them all started to testify for him as being the friend of Allah. No Muslim would curse the friend of Allah in defiance of the oppressive authorities, so that the glory was to Allah, and to His Messenger and to all the believers. It also became an historical land mark across the generations so that they know the just cause of Ali and the wrong doing of his enemies. Thus, our learned people continued to testify that Ali is the friend of Allah in their calls to prayer, as something which is commendable. There are many commendable things in the religious rites as well as in ordinary mundane dealings, and the Muslim will be rewarded for doing them, but not punished for leaving them aside.

For example, it is commendable for the Muslim to say after al-Shahadah [i.e. to testify that there is no God but Allah, and that Muhammad (saw) is His messenger]: And I will testify that Heaven is true and Hell is true, and that Allah will resurrect people from their graves.

I said "Our learned people taught us that the priority of the succession was for our master Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, then to our master Umar al-Faruq, then to our master Uthman, then to our master Ali, may Allah bless them all." Al-Sayyid remained silent for a short while, then answered me,

Let them say what they want, but it would be impossible for them to prove it on legal grounds, besides, what they say contradicts their books which state: The best of the people is Abu Bakr then Uthman, and there is no mention of Ali because they made him just an ordinary person, however, the later historians started to mention him for the sake of mentioning the Rightly Guided Caliphs.

After that I asked him about the piece of clay on which they put their foreheads during the prayers and they call it "al-Turbah al-Husayniyyah". He answered,

We all prostrate on the dust, but not for the dust, as some people claim that the Shia do, for the prostration is only for Allah, praise be to Him the Highest. It is well established among our people, as well as among the Sunnis, that the most favourable prostration is on earth or on the non-edible produce of the earth, and it is incorrect to prostrate on anything else. The Messenger of Allah (saw) used to sit on the dust, and he had a piece of clay mixed with straw, on which he used to prostrate. He also taught his Companions, may Allah bless them all, to prostrate on the earth or on stones, and forbade them from prostrating on the edges of their shirts. We consider these acts to be necessary and important.

Imam Zayn al-Abideen Ali ibn al-Husayn [may Allah bless them both] took a Turbah [a piece of clay] from near the grave of his father Abu Abdullah, because the dust there is blessed and pure, for the blood of the chief martyr was spilt on it. Thus, his followers continue with that practice up to the present day.

We do not say that prostration is not allowed but on Turbah, rather, we say that prostration is correct if it is done on any blessed Turbah or stone, also it is correct if it is done on a mat which is made of palm leaves or similar material.

I asked, with reference to our master al-Husayn, may Allah's blessings be upon him, "Why do the Shia cry and beat their cheeks and other parts of their bodies until blood is spilt, and this is prohibited in Islam, for the Prophet (saw) said: He who beats the cheeks, tears the pockets and follows the call of al-Jahiliyyah is not one of us."

Al-Sayyid replied,

The saying is correct and there is no doubt about it, but it does not apply to the obsequies of Abu Abdullah, for he who calls for the avenging of al-Husayn and follows his path, his call is not of the Jahiliyyah. Besides, the Shias are only human beings, among them you find the learned and not so learned, and they have feelings and emotions. If they are overcome by their emotions during the anniversary of the martyrdom of Abu Abdullah, and remember what happened to him, his family and his companions from degradation to captivity and then finally murder, then they will be rewarded for their good intentions, because all these intentions are for the sake of Allah. Allah - praise be to Him, the Highest - who rewards people according to their intentions.

Last week I read the official reports from the Egyptian government about the suicide incidents that followed the death of Jamal Abdul Nasser. There were eight such incidents in which people took their lives by jumping from buildings or throwing themselves under trains, besides them there were many injured people. These are but some examples in which emotions have overcome the most rational of people, who happen to be Muslims and who killed themselves because of the death of Jamal Abdul Nasser, who died of natural causes, therefore, it is not right for us to condemn the Sunnis and judge them to be wrong.

On the other hand, it is not right for the Sunnis to accuse their brothers the Shia of being wrong because they cry for the chief martyr. These people have lived and are still living to this present day the tragedy of al-Husayn. Even the Messenger of Allah (saw) cried after the death of his son al- Husayn, and Gabriel cried also.

I asked, "Why do the Shia decorate the graves of their saints with gold and silver, despite the fact that it is prohibited in Islam?"

Al-Sayyid al-Sadr replied,

This is not done just by the Shia, and it is not prohibited. Look at the mosques of our brothers the Sunnis in Iraq or Egypt or Turkey or anywhere else in the Islamic world, they are all decorated with gold and silver. Furthermore, the mosque of the Messenger of Allah (saw) in al-Madinah al-Munawarah and the Kaba, the House of Allah, in the blessed Mecca is covered every year by a cloth decorated by gold which costs millions. So such a thing is not exclusive to the Shia.

I asked "The Saudi Ulama say that touching the graves and calling the saints for their blessings is polytheism, so what is your opinion?"

Al-Sayyid al-Sadr replied:

If touching the graves and calling the dead is with the understanding that they could cause harm or render a benefit, then that is polytheism, no doubt about it, the Muslims are monotheists and they know that Allah alone could cause harm or render a benefit, but calling the saints and Imams [may Allah bless them all] with the understanding that they could be an intermediary to Allah, that is not polytheism. All Muslims, Sunnis and Shias, agreed on this point from the time of the Messenger up to the present day, except the Wahabiyyah, the Saudi Ulama who contradict all Muslims with their new creed. They caused considerable disturbances among the Muslims, they accused them of blasphemy, they spilt their blood and even beat old pilgrims on their way to the House of Allah in Mecca just because they say "O Messenger of Allah, may peace be upon you", and they will never let anybody touch his blessed grave. They had so many debates with our learned people, but they persisted in their stubbornness and their arrogance.

Al-Sayyid Sharaf al-Din, a famous Shi'i learned man, went on pilgrimage to the House of Allah during the time of Abdul Aziz ibn Saud, and he was one of those Ulama who were invited to the King's palace to celebrate with the King 'Id al-Adhha, in accordance with the customs there. When his turn came to shake the King'shand, Sayyid Sharaf al-Din presented him with a leather bound Qur'an. The King took the Qur'an and placed it on his forehead then kissed it. Al Sayyid Sharaf al-Din said, "O King, why do you kiss and glorify the cover which is only made out of goat's skin?" The King answered, "I meant to glorify the Holy Qur'an, not the goat's skin." Al-Sayyid Sharaf al-Din then said, "Well said, O King. We do the same when we kiss the window or the door of the Prophet's (saw) chamber, we know it is made of iron and could not harm or render a benefit, but we mean what is behind the iron and wood, we mean to glorify the Messenger of Allah (saw) in the same way as you meant with the Qur'an when you kissed its goat's skin cover.

The audience was impressed by al-Sayyid and said, "You are right." The King was forced to allow the pilgrims to ask for blessings from the Prophet's relics, until the order was reversed by the successor of that king. The issue is not that they are afraid of people associating others with Allah, rather, it is a political issue based on antagonizing and killing the Muslims in order to consolidate their power and authority over the Muslims, and history is the witness to what they have done with the Muslim nation.

I asked him about the Sufi orders, and he answered me briefly,

There are positive and negative aspects to them. The positive aspects include self-discipline, austere living, renunciation of worldly pleasures and elevating one's self to the spiritual world. The negative aspects include isolation, escapism and restricting the mention of Allah by verbal numbers and various other practices. Islam, as it is known accepts the positive aspects but rejects the negative ones, and we may say that all the principles and teachings of Islam are positive.

From 'Then I was Guided'

by Tijani al Samaawi

SORRY BROTHERS!

That was extremely long. Take back what I said to Amer. Please forgive.

i approached MOLA ALI's tomb, i gave amerislam, tod and ali ameem's regards and salams in all my prayers 5 there to him....
when you go there you enter the doors... you can feel the mighty shaheed of allahs presence amongst,around and inside of you....
allahSWTincrease his status O ALLAH.....
i felt so welcomed and loved even though no1 talked to me by his spirit ALLAH HU AKBAR......
in all my prayers tears fell....
and to think my ancestral grandfather is buried there....... i couldnt stand straight in my prayers i was to weak.........
ali ameem & tod i will be heading to your imam's tomb soon for you's to do my five prayers there on your guys behalf....... allah hu akbar....

salam brothers salam

o dearest brothers...
i cannot bear the story's the shia people are telling me about the battle of karbala.......
o allah i sacrifice all my blessings so you can punish the men that did this to imam hussayn, hussan and ali, and bibi fatima......
o allah o allah i cannot stop the tears,
Ali -e-Akbar
The 18-year old who resembled the Holy Prophet the most,martyred pierced through his breast..
if these men make up the sunni sect, yazid and his followers i cannot be a sunni... i am simply a muslim

dont worry yaz'eed has nothing to do with sunnite's beliefs...

******THANK ALLAH******

To Muslim Maniac

Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman
On to Yazid, - through Muawiah
Successor to the Caliph number three.
Governor of Syria, Companion to Uthman -
MUAWIAH!The lizard son of Abu Sufyaan.

So do not talk to me about
the Rightly Guided Four
For over half of you had shut
the way to Ali's door.
And the one's who did accept
went later on to take
Allegience to Muawiah
The father of the SNAKE.

And do not talk to me
about persistent 'Allahoo'!
Pretending that your followers
are of the chosen few.
When they upon the history
of Hussain have feared to tread
To find the when and where
and how the Sunnis cut his head.

We ARE worried MuslimManiac Because of the undeniable link between Uthman, Muawiah AND YAZID.

Whosoever confirmed the Caliphate of Uthman, confirmed in turn his decision to appoint Muawiah as governer of Syria.

Whosoever confirmed The Leadership of Muawiah, confirmed in turn his decision to Appoint Yazid as Caliph of The Muslim Ummah.

Hence the accusative link toward Yazid and The Sunni's.

Seyyyidinna

Describe to me the design above the front entrance to the actual Shrine of Imam Ali. What material is it made of and what image does it depict?

Wassalaam.

salams,

A whole new light has come out from the comments of Sayaduna and musim maniac!! Alhamdullah i should say.

We finally accept that not all democratical elected caliph's are the ones to follow. We either accept democracy or decline it.

Basically the Sunni state that the apointement of Abu Bakr is correct and everyone follows this. Together with this same elceted form Umar and Uthmaan, Muawiya then Yazeed were elected. But history has now become strange as a Sunni now declines that Yazeed is anything to do with them and therfore declines the manner of the democracy and the Khalafat linage. You cant pick and choose but if you do, then you have opened a new door which states that it is posible that all the caliphs were not right and could be wrong.,

Thank To Allah (swt) that he has guided you to opose this way as a true searcher but it had taken the blood of Hussein (as), the grandson of the prophet to show you this...

As they say 'better late then never'!!!!!

Was salasms
Hajji

salams

A strange request to sayaduna but if you are really in Najaf now like you say, then please pray for me at the tomb of Imam Ali (as) who is the door of knoledge and also pass my personal condolances to him in the martyrdom of his son Hussein (as) who was brutally killed together with his family. Also pass my condolances to him that when the sad tragedy of Kerballa had ended up till the time of Asr and new war had started as the war before Asr was with men and when the night had come the eligitemate Umayad ruled army started a war with the ladies of the prophets house which included Zainab (sa) who was the sister of Ali (as) that you visit. She was made to bare tribulation of the lonley desert unveiled as her head covering was stripped from her.

Please pass my condolances to Imam Ali (as) for this matter but if you are not there or cant then it is ok as from the distance that i stand from i visit there everyday and do verbal salutation to him from this distance.

Was salams
Hajji

Thnaks Sayadina for delivering my salaam to Imam Ali (as).

The Recognition of the Imams (a.s.)

It is related with a sound chain of authority from Salman al- Farsi, ' I visited the Messenger (s.w.a.s.)of Allah (SWT) who looked at me and said, ' "O Salman, Allah (SWT) does not send a Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.s.) or messenger unless there are with him twelve chiefs."

"O Messenger of Allah (SWT), I know this from the people of the two books."

"O Salman, do you know my twelve chiefs, whom Allah (SWT) has chosen to be leaders after me?"

"Allah (SWT) and His Messenger know best."

"O Salman, Allah (SWT) created me from the quintessence of light, and called me, so I obeyed Him. Then He created 'Ali (a.s.) from my light, and called him, and he obeyed. From my light and the light of 'Ali (a.s.) He created Fatimah (a.s.): He called her and she obeyed. From me, 'Ali (a.s.) and Fatimah (a.s.), He created al-Hasan (a.s.) and al-Husayn (a.s.). He called them and they obeyed Him. Allah (SWT) has named us with five of His names: Allah (SWT) is al-Mahmud (the Praised) and I am Muhammad (worthy of praise); Allah (SWT) is al-'Ali (a.s.) (the High), and this is 'Ali (a.s.) (the one of high rank); Allah (SWT) is al-Fatir (Creator out of nothing), and this is Fatimah (a.s.); Allah (SWT) is the One with Hasan (beneficence), and this is Hasan; Allah (SWT) is Muhassin (the Beautiful), and this is Husayn. He created nine Imams (a.s.) from the light of al-Husayn (a.s.) and called them and they obeyed Him, before Allah (SWT) created either Heaven on high, the out-stretched earth, the air, the angels or man. We were lights who glorified Him, listened to Him and obeyed Him."

"O Messenger of Allah (SWT), may my father and mother be your ransom! What is there for the person who recognizes these men as they should be recognized?"

"O Salman, whoever recognizes them as they should be recognized, and follows their example, befriends them and is free of their enemies, by Allah (SWT)! he is one of us. He will return to where we return, and he will be where we are!"

"O Messenger of Allah (SWT), is there belief without knowing their names and lineage?"

"No, Salman."

"Messenger of Allah (SWT), where will I find them?"

"You already know al-Husayn (a.s.); then there will be the master of the worshippers, 'Ali (a.s.) ibn Husayn (Zayn al-'Abidin); then his son Muhammad ibn 'Ali (a.s.), the piercer of the knowledge of the early and the later Holy Prophet (s.a.w.a.s.)s and messengers (al-Baqir); then Ja'far ibn Muhammad, the truthful tongue of Allah (SWT) (al-Sadiq); then Musa ibn Ja'far, the one who kept his rage silent through patience in Allah (SWT) (al-Kathim); then 'Ali (a.s.) ibn Musa, pleased with the secret of Allah (SWT) (al-Rida '); then Muhammad ibn 'Ali (a.s.), the chosen one from the creatures of Allah (SWT) (al-MukAtar); then 'Ali (a.s.) ibn Muhammad, the guide to Allah (SWT) (al-Hadi); then al-Hasan (a.s.), son of 'Ali (a.s.), the silent, trustworthy guardian over the secret of Allah (SWT) (al-'Askari); then mim ha' mim dal (Muhammad), called Ibn al-Hasan (a.s.), the announcer who establishes the right of Allah (SWT)."

Salman said, 'I wept. Then I continued,

"O Messenger of Allah (SWT), let my life be deferred until their time! "

He said, "O Salman, recite this:

When the promise for the first of the two came,
We sent over you our servants of mighty prowess,
so they went to and fro among the houses, and it
was a promise to be accomplished. Then We gave
you back the turn to prevail against them, and
aided you with wealth and children and made you
a numerous band." ' (17:5-6)

"I wept a lot," said Salman, "and my yearning became intense. I said,

"O Messenger of Allah (SWT), is it a pledge from you?"

"Yes, by the One Who sent me and entrusted me with the Message; it is a pledge from me and from 'Ali (a.s.), Fatimah, al-Hasan (a.s.), al-Husayn (a.s.), and the nine Imams (a.s.) descended from the children of al-Husayn (a.s.), to you and those who are with us, and those of us who are wronged. Whoever is truly sincere in his belief, then by Allah (SWT), Salman, let Iblis and his armies come. Whoever has pure disbelief will be punished by retaliation, torture and inheritance (i.e. by others rather than them). Your Lord will not wrong anyone. It is we who are indicated in this verse:
"We desired to bestow a favour upon those who
were deemed weak in the land, and to make them
the leaders, and to make them the heirs, and to
grant them power in the land, and to make
Pharoah, Haman and their armies see from them
what they feared." ' (28:5-6)

Salman said, I took leave of the Messenger (s.w.a.s.)of Allah (SWT), completely unconcerned as to how Salman would meet death, or how death would meet him.

If someone interested to read complete sermon of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Ghadir, go to the following website:

http://www.duas.org/NEW/ghadirkhutba.htm

THE SUF'IAH ORDER OF THE SUNNI CHAIN OF ISLAM IS PERFECT/

no shia can produce men to the likes of these/

THIS IS A INTEREST TOPIK TO VEIW MATTERS OF OPPINION ON/

Salaam brothers.

In interesting point to note from brother Hajji. Yes, the Shiah bring the accusative link toward Yazid and the Sunni's, BECAUSE of their acceptance of the Caliphs prior to him.

BUT we could argue this the other way round by saying, through virtue of REJECTING Yazid they must also reject the OTHER men made Caliphs!

The early historians and hadith collectors, according to what Seyyed Baqir al Sadr is stating, made hardly any reference to this concept of Four Rightly Guided Caliphs.

This must have been due to the FACTS which showed a clear rejection of Imam Ali paying allegience to Abu Bakr AND, of Ayesha and Muawiah rejecting Imam Ali.

So, back in those days The Caliph was merely the person who managed to get their hands on it.

If we understand that the Muslim Ummah had in part accepted the Caliphate of Muawiah and of Yazid, we can also understand that those who are able to reject Yazid are also able to reject Muawiah, Uthman, Abu Bakr AND Umar on the pretense that there really never was such a thing as a Rightly Guided Caliphate.

I pray that we do make some headway brother Hajji, with our Sunni brothers, in that they accept Imam Ali to the level at which Mohammed pbuh portrayed him; that is the LEADER of The Muslims in ALL circumstances WITHOUT contradiction.

May this message reach their heads, as well as their hearts.

sallam bro/sis
our mufti of australia sheich TAJADEEN is going to Iraq,to help free the australian Hostage Inshallah.
whats your view brothers.

here we go again cursing muslims,shia complain so much if yous a upset so much and believe have the true eviedence of the calipha and so on,do something about it like immam hussayn r.a
stop complaining

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salaam AmerIslam!!...hahahaha.... noone is cursing Muslims...just trying to correct worng so that all Muslims become eligible for the promised Paradise.

I can't emphasize more on the last Hajj of the Prophet (pbuh) and the sermon he gave on the grounds of Gahdir-e-Khum. Here is some part of that historic sermon... (this is in response to your answer about Ghadir!!...and this answer is from Prophet (pbuh) by himself and I am hopeful that it will clear all doubts about Imam Ali's appointment as if it was devine or not.)

PROPHET'S HISTORIC GHADlR SERMON

I testify, even against my own soul, that I am His servant, and I bear witness that He is my Lord. I convey what He reveals to me, being cautious lest I should not do
it, so a catastrophe from Him would befall upon me, one which none can keep away, no matter how great his design may be and how sincere his friendship.
There is no God but He, for He has informed me that if I do not convey what He has just revealed to me in honor of' Ali in truth, I will not have conveyed His Message at all, and He, the Praised and the Exalted One, has guaranteed for me to protect me from the (evil) people, and He is Allah, the One Who suffices, the Sublime. He has just revealed to me the following (verse):

In The Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

O Messenger! Convey what has (just) been revealed to you (with regard to 'Ali), and if you do not do so, you will not have conveyed His Message at all, and Allah shall Protect you from (evil) people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.
(Qur'an, 5:67)

O people! I have not committed any shortcoming in conveying what Allah Almighty revealed to me, and I am now going to explain to you the reason behind the revelation of this verse: Three times did Gabriel command me on behalf of the Peace, my Lord, Who is the source of all peace, to thus make a stand in order to inform everyone, black and white, that: ' Ali ibn Abu Talib is my Brother, Wasi, and successor over my nation and the Imam after me, the one whose status to me is like that of Aaron to Moses except there will be no prophet after me, and he is your master next only to Allah and to His Messenger, and Allah has already revealed to me the same in one of the fixed verses(1) of His Book saying, "Your Master is Allah and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay zakat even as they bow down" (Qur'an, 5:55), and, Ali ibn Abu Talib the one who keeps up prayers, who pays zakat even as he bows down, seeking to please Allah, the Sublime, the Almighty, on each and every occasion.

I asked Gabriel to plead to the Peace to excuse me from having to convey such a message to you,

((1) Fixed verses are those which are never abrogated; the injunction(s) they contain remain valid forever.))

O people, due to my knowledge that the pious are few1 while the hypocrites are many, and due to those who will blame me, and due to the trickery of those who ridicule Islam and whom Allah described in His Book as saying with their tongues contrarily to what their hearts conceal, thinking lightly of it, while it is with Allah magnanimous, and due to the abundance of their harm to me, so much so that they called me "ears" and claimed that I am so because of being so much in his (' Ali's) company, always welcoming him, loving him and being so much pleased with him till Allah, the Exalted and the Sublime One,
revealed in this regard the verse saying: " And there are some of them who harm the (feelings of the) Prophet and say: He is an ear (uthun; i.e. he always listens to' Ali).

Say: One who listens (to' Ali) is good for you; He

(1 The pious are always few in any age or time, creed or faith or clime,in any place, in every space. As many as 72 verses in the Holy Qur'an condemnthe majority, praising the minority, underscoring what mankind knew, that thepious are always few. Indeed, the Prophet's statement is quite weighty, wise,terse, and not hasty. Nowadays, only a few pious ones remember this historic sermon and try their best to keep its memory alive. Yes; it is true, the pious are always few ...)

He believes in Allah and testifies to the conviction of the believers and a mercy for those of you who believe; and those who (thus ) harm the Messenger of Allah shall have a painful punishment" (Qur'an, 9:61). Had I wished to name those who have called me so, I would have called them by their names, and I would have pointed them out. I would have singled them out and called them by what they really are, but I, by Allah, am fully aware of their affairs. Yet despite all of that, Allah insisted that I should convey what He has just revealed to me in honor of' Ali. Then the Prophet recited the following verse:)

O Messenger! Convey what has (just) been revealed to you (with regard to 'Ali), and if you do not do so, you will not have conveyed His Message at all, and Allah shall protect you from (evil) people. (Qur'an, 5:67)

O people! Comprehend (the implications of) what I have just said, and again do comprehend it, and be (further) informed that Allah has installed him (' Ali) as your Master and Imam, obligating the Muhajirun and the Ansar and those who follow them in goodness to obey him, and so must everyone who lives in the desert or in the city, who is a non-Arab or an Arab, who is a free man or a slave, who is young or old, white or black, and so should everyone who believes in His Unity. His decree shall be carried out. His (' Ali's) word is binding; his command is obligating; cursed is whoever opposes him,

blessed with mercy is whoever follows him and believes in him, for Allah has already forgiven him and forgiven whoever listens to him and obeys him.

O people! This is the last stand I make in such a situation; so, listen and obey, and submit to the Command of Allah, your Lord, for Allah, the Exalted and the Sublime One, is your Master and Lord, then next to Him is His Messenger and Prophet who is now addressing you, then after me 'Ali is your Master and Imam according to the Command of Allah, your Lord, then the lmams from among my progeny, his offspring, till the Day you meet Allah and His Messenger.

more of PROPHET'S HISTORIC GHADlR SERMON...

Nothing is permissible except what is deemed so by Allah, His Messenger, and they (the Imams), and nothing is prohibitive except what is deemed so by Allah and His Messenger and they (the Imams). Allah, the Exalted and the Sublime One, has made me acquainted with what is permissible and what is prohibitive, and I have conveyed to you what my Lord has taught me of His Book, of what it decrees as permissible or as prohibitive.

O people! Prefer him (' Ali) over all others! There is no knowledge except that Allah has divulged it to me, and all the knowledge I have learned I have divulged to Imam al-Muttaqin (leader of the righteous), and there is no knowledge (that I know) except that I divulged it to' Ali, and he is al-Imam al-Mubin (the evident Imam) whom Allah mentions in Surat ya-Sin: "... and everything We have computed is in (the knowledge of) an evident Imam" (Qur'an, 36:12).

O people! Do not abandon him, nor should you flee away from him, nor should you be too arrogant to accept his authority, for he is the one who guides to righteousness and who acts according to it. He defeats falsehood and prohibits others from acting according to it, accepting no blame from anyone while seeking to please Allah. He is the first to believe in Allah and in His Messenger; none preceded him as such. And he is the one who offered his life as a sacrifice for the Messenger of Allah and who was in the company of the Messenger of Allah while no other man was. He is the first of all people to offer prayers and the first to worship Allah with me. I ordered him, on behalf of Allah, to sleep in my bed, and he did, offering his life as a sacrifice for my sake.

O people! Prefer him (over all others), for Allah has preferred him, and accept him, for Allah has appointed him (as your leader).

O people! He is an Imam appointed by Allah, and Allah shall never accept the repentance of anyone who denies his authority, nor shall He forgive him; this is a must decree from Allah never to do so to anyone who opposes him, and that He shall torment him with a most painful torment for all time to come, for eternity; so, beware lest you should oppose him and thus enter the fire the fuel of which is the people and the stones prepared for the unbelievers.

O people! By Allah! All past prophets and messengers conveyed the glad tiding of my advent, and I, by Allah, am the seal of the prophets and of the messengers and the argument against all beings in the heavens and on earth. Anyone who doubts this commits apostasy similar to that of the early jahiliyya, and anyone who doubts anything of what I have just said doubts everything which has been revealed to me, and anyone who doubts any of the Imams doubts all of them, and anyone who doubts us shall be lodged in the fire.

O people! Allah, the most Exalted and the Almighty, has bestowed this virtue upon me out of His kindness towards' Ali and as a boon to' Ali and there is no god but He; to Him all praise belongs in all times, for eternity, and in all circumstances.

O people! Prefer' Ali (over all others), for he is the very best of all people after me, be they males or females, so long as Allah sends down His sustenance, so long as there are beings. Cursed and again cursed, condemned and again condemned, is anyone who does not accept this statement of mine and who does not agree to it. Gabriel himself has informed me of the same on behalf of Allah Almighty Who he said (in Gabriel's words): " Anyone who antagonizes' Ali and refuses to accept his wilayat shall incur My curse upon him and My wrath." "... and let every soul consider what it has sent forth for the morrow, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah" (Qur'an, 59:18), "And do not make your oaths a means of deceit between you lest a foot should slip after its stability" (Qur'an, 16:94), " Allah is fully aware of all what you do" (Qur'an, 58: 13).

O people! He (' Ali) is janb-Allah mentioned in the Book of Allah, the Sublime One: The Almighty, forewarning his (' Ali's) adversaries, says, "Lest a soul should say: O woe unto me for what I fell short of my duty to Allah, and most surely I was of those who laughed to scorn" (Qur'an, 39:56).

O people! Study the Qur'an and comprehend its verses, look into its fixed verses and do not follow what is similar thereof, for by Allah, none shall explain to you what it forbids you from doing, nor clarify its exegesis, other than the one whose hand I am taking and whom I am lifting to me, the one whose arm I am taking and whom I am lifting, so that I may enable you to understand that: Whoever among you takes me as his master, this, Ali is his master, and he is' Ali ibn Abu Talib, my Brother and wasi, and his appointment as your wali is from Allah, the Sublime, the Exalted One, a commandment which He revealed to me.

O people! ' Ali and the good ones from among my offspring from his loins are the Lesser Weight, while the Qur'an is the Greater One: each one of them informs you of and agrees with the other. They shall never part till they meet me at the Pool (of Kawthar).

They are the Trustees of Allah over His creation, the rulers on His earth.

Indeed now I have performed my duty and conveyed the Message. Indeed you have heard what I have said and explained. Indeed Allah, the Exalted One and the Sublime, has said, and so have I on behalf of Allah, the Exalted One and the Sublime, that there is no

Ameerul-Mo'mineen (Commander of the Faithful) save this Brother of mine; no authority over a believer is permissible after me except to him.

Then the Prophet patted ' Ali's arm, lifting him up. Since the time when the Messenger of Allah ascended the pulpit, Ameerul-Mo'mineen was one pulpit step below where the Messenger of Allah had seated himself on his pulpit, while' Ali was on his (Prophet's) right side, one pulpit step lower, now they both appeared to the gathering to be on the same level; the Prophet lifted him up. The Prophet then raised his hands to the heavens in supplication while' Ali's leg was touching the knee of the Messenger of Allah. The Prophet continued his sermon thus:

O people! This is' Ali, my Brother, Wasi, the one who comprehends my knowledge, and my successor over my nation, over everyone who believes in me. He is the one entrusted with explaining the Book of Allah, the most Exalted One, the Sublime, and the one who invites people to His path. He is the one who does whatever pleases Him, fighting His enemies, befriending His friends who obey Him, prohibiting disobedience to Him. He is the successor of the Messenger of Allah and Ameerul- Mo'mineen, the man assigned by Allah to guide others, killer of the renegades and of those who believe in equals to Allah, those who violate the Commandments of Allah. Allah says, "My Word shall not be changed, nor am I in the least unjust to the servants" (Qur'an, 50.29), and by Your Command, O Lord, do I (submit and) say, O Allah! Befriend whoever befriends him (Ali) and be the enemy of whoever antagonizes him; support whoever supports him and abandon whoever abandons him; curse whoever disavows him, and let Your Wrath descend on whoever usurps his right.

O Lord! You revealed a verse in honor of' Ali, Your wali, in its explanation and to effect Your own appointment of him this very day did You say, "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour on you, and chosen for you Islam as a religion"

(Qur'an, 5.3); "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers" (Qur'an, 3:85).

Salam All...plz read this and think!!... Allah says "grab hold of his rope and do not seperate".
i am a sunni who is marrying a shia girl yet we have no problem in our faith and Deen. To the shia brothers n sisters i like to say this. Lets assume Ali was meant to be next imam after the prophet, i ask you why did he allow 3 others to take over his position? Ali was a great muslim and a great leader and he will stand up for allah and his religion right? If he for once thought abu bakr or uthman or omar were not meant to be khaliphs? he would of died trying to stop this from happening for allah and his religion. Plz read this with an open mind!! secondly and most importantly the prophet did mention 12 imams to come after him thats very right and true.. but do u ask urself why after the 11th shia imam died he had no son? maybe allah tried to prove a point? then shia claim he had a son..ok lets say he had a son from a quick marriage through a girl named narjis who was a roman princess prisoner.. Shia call her narjis (malika). she was daughter of a roman byzantine emporer named Yoshua a descendant of Simon Peter.... do u people know that there was no such emporer at this time?? and there was no emporer a descendant from Simon peter!! The whole story of this lady Narjis mother of AL MAHDI is false and so untrue. plz read history and search hard coz u wont find any names or leaders in them years (868AD) the emporer at that time of romans was Basil....
From all this i stil love shia for we all live in a time full of lies and its so hard to find the truth. Real sunnis love to see shia as their 5th sect as u all know sunni's have 4 madhabs(groups).
Allah says " those who turn shia (sect) he shall not look at nor be pleased with" Do you all notice how all the 4 imams Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and ALi died aged 63 just as the prophet did??? this is a sign for us all to believe in the companions of mohammad. the prohpet (S) says " my people will seperate into 73 different sects but only one is rightious and it will be that who follows what i do and that of my companions? Have an open mind. the prophet named abu bakr (AL SIDDIQ) the truthfull!! how do shia resent abu bakr when our mohammad (S) named him the truthfull one?..i dont know!! i love ahl al bayt and the family of my prophet but i will not resent his companions for that is very bad. may allah guide us all and if we die in time where mahdi doesnt show then maybe allah will have a higher mercy on us for our corrupted leaders do nothing to help us search the truth. SALAM ALL and we r all brothers n family plz dont fight

SORRY AMEEM,

without rejecting the khalif-e-rashidun, sunni men reach a pinnacle of status such az the soofi'z the wali'z and aulia'z in this order,

they recieve powers from allah on there behalf,
such az knowledge of the unseen, miracle power for instance being in two places at once and so on.

So it is clear abiding proof that the sunni is the correct way of life.

by paying respect to aboo bakr, oothman, and omar and having ali RA as the fourth Khalif.

well said "muslim".

but one thing what will you teach your children, sunni sect shia sect.

you cant possible teach them to cut themselves like the shia's do or to use a rock to pray on like the shia's do, and hate aboo, oothman,oomar like the shia's do, or believe in the 12 imams
like the shia's do,. its outrageous.
what will your wife do. stay shia or become sunni. it has to be decided .

Assalaam un Alaykum AmerIslam.

Assalaam un Alaykum Seyyed Kaazmi (TOD)!

May Allah grace you with many blessings for having quoted the above words of our holy prophet pbuh.

I would ask you for my own personal referrences to quote the book or Hadith that this has been taken from, it is obviously from the Shia sources but at this stage I do not care for what the Sunni books have to say. For the Overwhelming evidence of clarity and, truth of our position to the core status of Imam Ali's Successorship is described in the above words.

I am sorry once again Amer. But I HAD to write that poem; there are some people who STILL have not figured out the link between Abu Sufyaan, Muawiah and Yazid. All of them at one stage or another waged war with either Mohammed or his family. I AM sorry for you but in the SHIA Madhhab, to tell you the truth these people ARE cursed because of it - no matter how many excuses the Sunni's give on their behalf. Without having to pretend to you The Shi'ah belief is that Abu Sufyaan's conversion to Islam WAS an act of Hypocrisy, because it was only through the military might of Mohammad's army that he felt helpless and feared that his own army may be subdued. Even if you watch the famous movie THE MESSAGE about the life of Mohammed the true colours of Abu Sufyaan and his wife Hinda seem to want to emanate from the screen.

It is STILL my appeal to you to accept THE FULL guidance of Imam Ali from the very outset, as it is so very clear the he is the glue that joins Islam together after Mohammed. We have talked of so much history and this cannot be of no avail to you. You must accept the evidences for which TOD is time and time again exposing to you. Even with the minimal truth, combined with your own common sense you should be by now instinctively prepared to defend Imam Ali AND Fatema tu Zahra on any count, whether it be against Abu Bakr, Ayesha OR Muawiah. Do you not think Allah will not question these people for debating, for CONTENDING with Mohammed's family after his death?

Do you not think Allah will not question those people who sat apatheticaly, shying away from the Jihad against Ayeha's army, on the command of our Maula Imam Ali?

Brother, he is YOUR leader as well why have you not the courage to follow his command and accept it for what it is?

Infact ANY act AGAINST Imam Ali is considered to be an act against Mohammed and therefore an act against Allah which finally amounts into an act of HYPOCRISY for those of us who are claiming to be on the side of the muslims.

I do hope you will understand further the view of Ayesha and Muawiah in relation to this. I do hope you will make sense of it.

TOD.I have understood, in the same way the Sunni's have a summarised version of Hadith e Kisa they have a summarised version of The Event of Ghadir.

I have understood through your above quote that The Shia are truly blessed for having access to The FULLER accounts of the histories pertaining to the PURIFIED Ahlul Bayt. This is despite the attempts of historians to cut and edit and sometimes even burn the evidences that bring to light the clarity of Imam Ali's position AND of his family.

I am requesting all brothers to once again read, write down, print out, re-read, remember and COMPREHEND The Prophet's Historic Ghadir Sermon
Posted by: Tod at May 8, 2005 09:55 PM.

May Allah Guide those who wish to be Guided.

To all my brothers with love.

Wassalaam

ALI AMEEM,

sweet talking your way wont do anything,

read the facts MUSLIM has given its clear and decided that the sunni factor of islam is islam and shia'tte is the clear divedence of islam, the first sect to come off from the tree of the muslim ummah.

clearly kaffir.
no poem or shia'tte hadith is eligble for discussion because it is what your people say and we have on our account of what our people say.

read AL QURANI PAK, for what ALLAH SWT says about the people who split the UMMAH, and what they are.

after attaining this information you have to look at the matter of life.
which the impakt of what happens to them in there sekts such az increase of there piety and so on.

what do you have to say about the personalities of the sunni aulia'z
jaffari was not a wali'allah.

look at how ALLAH swt elevates those who accept the khalifate of aboo oothman and oomar and ali.

look at what happens to our people and look at what happens to yourz.
murdered by food poisening(you know who i mean)

salam

Dear Seyyidenna

There is a popular British movie of the 1960's called Billy Liar. Have you seen it?

hahahahahaha....fery funny muslimMANIAC!!
I did not know muslims were MANIAC...LOL

Look son! I can see your mental capacity so listen and listen very carefully...
just show me in Quran a single place where word "Sunni" is used and Sunni Mazhabs and Sunni persons are the righteous persons".

If you do that then I will show you word "SHIA" and all what I had said above. (Insha-Allah)
btw...it's a challenge to your father too...LOL

My brother in ISLAM Ali Ameem Naqvi...Salaam!

As for references for the "Gahdir Sermon"... here 42 references are;

REFERENCES: KHUTBA OF AL-GHADEER

The following constitutes only major references of the components of Khutba of Ghadeer. In these references the reader can deliberate on the various portions of this historic sermon as quoted in bits and pieces in those references. Most of these references are considered reliable by the majority of Muslims (of the Shi'a or Sunni persuation):

Jalaal ad-Deen al-Sayyuti, Kitaab Al-Itqaan, Vol. 1, p. 31.
al-Majlisi, Bihaar.al-Anwaar, Vol. 21, pp. 360-90, Vol. 37, pp. 111-235, and Vol. 41, p. 228.He Quotes book al-Ih'tijaj by al-Tibrisi (vol.2)
Al-Bldaaya wal Nihaaya, Vol. 5, p. 208.
Badee' al-Ma'aani, p. 75
Tareekh Baghdad, V01. 1, p. 411 and V01. 8, p. 290.
Tareekh Dimashq, Vol. 5, p. 210.
Ibn al-Jawziyya, Tadh'kirat al-Khawaas, pp. 18-20.
Ibn al-Sa'ud's Tafseer, Vol. 8, p. 292.
Al-Tibari, Tafseer al-Qur'an, Vol. 3, p. 428 and Vol. 6, p. 46.
al-Fakhr al-Razi, Al-Tafseer al-Kabeer, Vol. 3, p. 636.
Al-Tamhid fi USool al-Deen, p. 171.
Tayseer al-Wusul, Vol. 1, p. 122.
Ghiyaath ad-Din ibn Hammaam, Tareekh Habib al-Siyar, V01. 1, p. 144.
al-Maqrizi, Khutat, p. 223.
al-Sayyuti, Al-Durr al-Manthur, Vol. 2, pp. 259, 298.
Thakhaa'ir al-'Uqba, p. 68.
Ruh al-Ma'aani, Vol. 2, p. 348.
Mohibb al-Tabal-;, AI.Riyadh al-r:adhirah, Vol. 2, p.169.
Al-Siraaj al-Munir, Vol. 4, p. 364.
al-Hakim, Al-Seera al-Halabiyya, Vol. 3, p. 302.
Shar'h al-Mawaahib, V01. 7, p. 13.
Ibn Hajar al-' Asqalaani, Al-Sawaa'iq al-Muhriqa, p. 26.
Ibn al-Badriq, Al-'Umda, p. 52.
Badr ad-Deen, 'Umdat al-Qari fi Shar'h al-Bukhari, V01. 8, p. 584.
al-Ghadeer, V01. 2, p. 57.
Sharafud-Deen al-Musawi, AI-Fusul al-Muhimma, pp. 25-27.
Fadha 'il al-Sahaaba, p. 272.
Faydh al-Ghadeer, V01. 6, p. 218.
Kashf al-Ghumma, p. 94.
Kifaayat al- Taalib, pp. 17, 28.
al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Kanz al-'Ummaal, Vol. 6, p. 397.
Imam Ibn Hanbal, Mus'nad, V01. 4, p. 281.
Mishkaat al-Masabeeh, p. 272.
Mushkil al-aathaar, Vol. 3, p. 196.
Mataalib al-Su'ul, p. 16.
Muftah al-Najaat, p. 216.
al-Shahristaani, AI-Milal wal Nihal, V 01. 1, p. 220.
al-Khawarizmi, Manaaqib, pp. 80, 94.
Ibn al-Maghaazli, Manaaqib, p. 232.
al-Qastalani, Al-Mawaahib, Vol. 2, p. 13.
al-Samhudi, Wafaa' al-Wafaa', Vol. 2, p. 173.
al-Qanduzi, Yanabi al-Mawadda, p. 120.

Teken from website:
http://www.duas.org/NEW/ghadirkhutba.htm

To ...

(Not sure what to call you now Seyyedina, Muslim, Muslim Maniac, Seyyidinna Ali, Naazla - what? are you ALL in Iraq? The curse of Allah is upon those who lie - Holy Quran)

Regardless of what you say about the geneology of Narjis Khatoon, the birth of the Twelfth of Imam is an historical truth and the Shia are not in need for this to be authenticated by the Sunni Traditionists.

The life, times and incidents pertaining to The TWELVE Imams have been of concern mainly to their SHIA, whilst the Sunni's have been perfectly happy following The Kings that came into power during the same time.

What would the followers of Muawiah wish to have anything to do with the descendents of Imam Ali anyway?

Aside from follow Muawiah's Sunnah and war against them.

As far as you are concerned therefore, there may as well be 11 Imams but for us, there are Twelve.

You may continue to search for your TWELVE CALIPHS
blindly wondering on into stubborn oblivion, as one would wonder through the corpses of the Shaheed at Siffeen, and still be undecided as to who their Imam is.

Truth became divided from falsehood when Imam Ali raised the Sword against Ayesha, the hater of the Ahlul Bayt.

The light of this is one of the clearest evidences you will ever see that REFUTES your concept in the Khilaafah e Raashidun - Ayesha is refuting the Khilaafah e Raashidun - Muawiah is refuting the Khilaafah e Raashidun.

WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?

Abdul Qaadir Al Jilaani is NOT in THE QURAN.

Imam Ali however IS and has been given the status of WALI alongside ONLY Mohammed and ALLAH (Holy Quran 5:55).

In verse 3:33 the Ahlul Bayt are also mentioned further has being Thoroughly Purified.

This verse includes Mohammed, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.

ALL are AWLIA.

HOW DARE YOU put Abdul Qaadir Jilaani on the same level as The Panjaan Paak - it is the same with you Sunnis you have given the status of IMAM to your 4 Jurists when the REAL IMAMS and AWLIA ARE the likes of Imam Ja'afer us Sadiq, Imam Musa e Kaazim, Imam Ali Reza etc.

You wish to compare the status of OUR AWLIAH against yours?!

Then come on let us REALLY go to NAJAF and KARBALA instead of making up fantastical stories and see how you deal with being taken to the police station every time your passport gets checked.

You think the no. 63 is special?

OK then, Ch 33 vs 33. Add all the three's up, what do you get? TWELVE.

How many months in the year? TWELVE.

How many hours in the day? TWELVE.

Numbers on the Clock? TWELVE.

It is reported from Abu Hurayra that the Prophet said: "What will be your reaction when the son of Mary descends and your Imam is among yourselves?"

Sahih al Bukhari

If you don't know which Imam your following then brother you don't know what time of day it IS.

Wassalaam

Salams

it is very strange again how mucha person can flip from one subject to another! Again it shows defeat in the matter..

We have moved to the Wilayat of Ali, I must mention to Brother Ameem that in the Battle of Jamal it was not Ali that made the war on A'isha but it was the other way round, it was a conspiricy with Talha and Zubair aswell. A war to gain power using the death of Uthmaan as a key to swipe the eligitemate role of a leader. It makes me laugh that those who say that Ali (as) disrespected A'isha of bringing war with when she was the Phrophets wife. The fact is that in Jihaad and in every school of thought, a women should not be their, A break of Islamic law in under your noses as those soldiers on the side of A'isha left their wifes at home and carried a female to a battleground. !!!! Where was the disrespect???

Brother Ameem, as you are on the note of findings from the Quran in resembelance of 12 i wanted to join in and a secred sentance to you from the Quran.

It is found that in the Quran we have cetain Ahroof which are Al Muqatiyaat (letters of Abriviation) which you will find have no meanings to us sinners. Like Alif Laam Meem in the first of Sura Baqara. Anyway, if you were to write all the letters down that are the Al Muqatiyat then you will find many duplicates. Take the duplicates away and you will be left with only 14 letters. You can make one full sentance using these 14 letter which as in arabic is 'Siraatu Ali Yun Haqun Namsikahu' in english 'The way of Ali is of truth so grasp onto it'....

Anyway, The 12th Imam, A saying of the Prophet..' he who dies without knowing the Imaam of his time dies the death of the ignorance' Who is your Imaam and also Allah (swt) has stated that there is a Guide for every nation so who is your guide? Also Allah states that 'Ask from the Ahlul Zikr for you who dont know' Who are the Ahlul Zikr? When a new modern question in Fiqh arises, who do you ask as you have no beleif in the guide for evey nation?? Your imams are dead so you state and 1 more will be born by the name of Mehdi (af)!! You also state that it will be from Hassan Askari but you state in history that he died??????? What are you chatting about ? Did not Noah (p) live for 1000 years but 50? Is not Khizr still alive? why can not the mehdi be alive?

It is also very strange that you state Prophethood is greater then the Imamate but in your history you state that when the end of time shall come Isa (as) will be here and he will pray behind the Imam Mehdi (af)!! what a contradiction to you all!! The great great great great grandson of Ali (as) is so great that prophethood now prays behind him but when imamate is spoken about you decline its importance!!!!!

Even Umar stated 'Lowla Ali la halakal Umar' If ali was not here today then Umar would have been lost'....

Look at history of your Khaliphs and you will see that when it came to the judgeing they all called upon Ali (as) to resolve matters for them......

You guys please if we all want to be guided to the truth then we should all stop flipping to subject to subject as we all have much to say... if you want to find truth in all matters then we either accept certain matters and then move on...

I take it that everyone agrees on the elegitimate rule of Yazeed that was a chain from Muawiya that was given before him. If so there is now right to state and chat about the first 3 caliphs and their rule if it was right or wrong. Muawiya made war against your forth rightfull elected caliph so what is his status? As many class him as pious!! So i say something about the 1st 3 and i am a kafir to you!! wake up boys as you state to me then that i have a key to place war with the first 3 but to say something is forbidden!! you guys need to educate me as i dont understand your form of logic!!

Was salams
Hajji

salamz ALL... Dear bro Ali Ameen

i dont know what u mean by saying what to call me now? i am not insulting shia nor i need to be insulted :) we r all muslims and inshallah we shall all be in heaven together AMEN. i totally believ ein ahl al bayt... they r pure and god has blessed them and will make all be in heaven inshallah........... my point was about the extremism of how u believe in al mahdi being a son of al ASKARI. DID U KNOW after al husyain died there were some who claimed to follow their other brother Muhammad (known as Ibn al-Hanafiyyah) as their Imam. When he died his followers claimed that he was in reality alive, and that he will return in due time. Others amongst the Shi‘ah took Sayyiduna Husayn’s son, Ali, surnamed Zayn al-‘Abidin, as their Imam, and upon his death transferred their loyalties to his son, Muhammad al-Baqir.

When al-Baqir died there were once again elements from amongst the Shi‘ah who denied his death and claimed that he would return one day, while others took his son Ja‘far as-Sadiq as their Imam
When he died there was mass confusion amongst the Shi‘ah: each of his sons Isma‘il, Abdullah, Muhammad, Zakariyya, Ishaq and Musa was claimed by various groups amongst the Shi‘ah to be their Imam. In addition to them there was a group who believed that Ja‘far did not really die, and that he would return one day

More or less the same thing happened at the death of his son Musa. Some of the Shi‘ah denied his death, believing that he will return, and others decided to take as their new Imam one of his sons. Some of these chose his son Ahmad, while others chose his other son Ali ar-Rida.

After him they took as their Imam his son Muhammad al-Jawwad (or at-Taqi), and after him his son Ali al-Hadi (or an-Naqi). At the death of Ali al-Hadi they looked upon his son Hasan al-Askari as their new— and 11th— Imam

The confusion that reigned amongst the Shi‘ah after the death of Hasan al-Askari is reflected by the Shi‘i writer Hasan ibn Musa an-Nawbakhti, who counts the emergence of altogether 14 sects amongst the followers of Hasan al-Askari, each one with a different view on the future of the Imamah and the identity of the next Imam. It must be noted that an-Nawbakhti was alive at the time all of this was taking place. Another Shi‘i writer, Sa‘d ibn Abdullah al-Qummi, who also lived during the same time, counts 15 sects, and a century later the historian al-Mas‘udi enumerates altogether 20 separate sects!!!!!

NOW tell me brother how many times and how many sects am i supposed to keep up with. shia"t Ali went too far for me. imam al mahdi could be from anyone son of them other groups who followed the brothers of the dead imams? u caused the alawiyya sect u caused the Durzi sect u caused 20 in all?? i myself am very tired of searching into shia and finding the truth!! ANd dont think for once sunni's dislike ali or the ahl al bayt... infact most of our scholars and hadeeth narrators have history to have studied with ahl al bayt to make all the hadeeths suheeh etc... shia also say that sunni during umayyad days went against ali ? he only did for the death of uthman out of anger and wanted justice to be done.. but they all realized their mistakes and wanted to fix their problems.. it is the people of ALI SHIA who turned against him. they r the ones who killed him not sunnis nor umayyads??? shia called the people who killed ALI kharjis???? its amazing how u neglect the fact that they were his main followers. they r the ones who seperated the khilapha and when ALi wanted to stand down from all the fighting after uthman death they killed him?? so plz dont blame us for the death of ALI look at urselves and ur fathers for how extreme they were..

Still i love shia and it is not our fault we r so distant from the truth. u r still the ones who carried on the messages of ahl al bayt so i believe in most things i hear about shia. i just disagree on certain issues only down to the fact that ur 20 so groups have decided to twist certain ahadeeth. and to all my sunni brothers plz show respect to ahl al bayt an shia.. its so haram to call them kafirs... u will be a bigger kafir to do such act.

SALAMZ and its so nice to be part of this site am sure we shall all learn from this :)

There is no logic hajji .. there is no logic but confusion....hahahaha

For me they are like as Quran says;

018.057
YUSUFALI: And who doth more wrong than one who is reminded of the Signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the (deeds) which his hands have sent forth? Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.

018.057
PICKTHAL: And who doth greater wrong than he who hath been reminded of the revelations of his Lord, yet turneth away from them and forgetteth what his hands send forward (to the Judgment)? Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright.

018.057
SHAKIR: And who is more unjust than he who is reminded of the communications of his Lord, then he turns away from them and forgets what his two hands have sent before? Surely We have placed veils over their hearts lest they should understand it and a heaviness in their ears; and if you call them to the guidance, they will not ever follow the right course in that case."

Now pick your own translation if you don't get above.

HAJJI ,,lol i like what u said about the alif laam meem and ali is the truth. but what makes u think us sunni's do not follow ALI ?? he is our leader and 4th imam? we already know he is the truth and a great islamic figure.

but whats horrible is how shia believe imamas have some sort of connection with GOD. ALLAh stated in quran " mohammad is only a prohpet" "and he is khatim al nabiyyeen (sealant of all prophets)" meaning no more revelations and no more heavenly powers sent to people.

how u assume ur imams have connection with allah is something i will never believe in. its as if ur making ur own quran. EXCEPTIONS huh? us muslims r good at making those when we fancy a little drink on the quiet side or a girly kiss.!

ALLAH A3LAM....

There was an interesting lecture given by Sheikh Ahmad Deedat on the subject of Shia/Sunni

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/Shia/iran.html

Hey Muslim! Just to answer your ridiculous question...

Al-Qadr (The Power, Fate)
[Yusufali 97:1]
We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:
Yusufali 97:2]
And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
Yusufali 97:3]
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
Yusufali 97:4]
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:
Yusufali 97:5]
Peace!...This until the rise of morn!

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 97:1]
Qadr is power, honour, glory, grandeur.

Refer to the commentary of Dukhan: 3 to 6 and references mentioned therein to have a clear understanding about the doctrine of determinism propagated by a large number of Muslim schools of thought; and also the true, rational and Islamic article of faith based on divine adl (justice) presented by the Ahl ul Bayt that man has been given a free wil1 to do good or do evil on the basis of which or as a consequence of which he will be examined on the day of judgement. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2 on page 20; and 5 on page 24; and 21 on page 55.

Laylatil Qadr means the night of power or grandeur. As verses 2 and 3 suggest it is, in the spiritual sense, a secret kept hidden, and it transcends time because in it Allah's power dispels the darkness of ignorance through His revelation.

Jalal al Din al Suyuti, in Durr al Manthur, says that laylatil qadr stands for the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The night of qadr is in the month of Ramadan. See Baqarah: 185 and Dukhan: 1 to 3 wherein it is stated that the whole Quran was revealed in this night. The descension of the angels and the spirit is a regular occurrence since the creation of Allah till the day of resurrection, and the place of descent is a thoroughly purified heart (Ahzab: 33). Therefore there should be such a purified heart in existence at all times.

Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir said:

"Present this surah as a decisive argument for the continuity of the divine vicegerency on the earth."

My comments:
You believe on Shaitan that he is here in this world and Allah (swt) has given him time till "Waqt-e-maaloom" and yet He (swt) has left the humans without a "Rehman" to do "Hidayat" guidance? Of course the Prophethood is over but the Sahriat is there. Someone has to explain the Shariat to you. In your case, Sunnis say it was the Kalifahs who were guiding, where are they now? Shias say they have a Guide and they call Him Imam.

Dear Muslim,

In relation to your comment

'Seal of the Prophtets' does NOT mean no more heavenly powers being sent to people'.

Correct me if I'm wrong but even a mere BEE recieves some form of divine inspiration - from where else does it get it's instinct to create perfect mathematical shapes?

There STILL therefore exists the possibility for spiritual human perfection AFTER the Prophet Mohammed pbuh, as the Quran itself testifies to The Ahlul Bayt being Thouroughly purified.

I apologise if I've made a mistake in confusing any body's identity with others on this site. If I'm guilty of suspicion then Allah forgive me.

You've stated that you have some sort of objection for the belief that others aside from and after Muhammed have " some sort of connection with GOD " .Out of genuine interest in the light of your quoted comment I would like to know your opinion on Muslim Maniac's comment pasted below.

'without rejecting the khalif-e-rashidun, sunni men reach a pinnacle of status such az the soofi'z the wali'z and aulia'z in this order,

they recieve powers from allah on there behalf,
such az knowledge of the unseen, miracle power for instance being in two places at once and so on'.

You have expressed your opinion in view of the position taken up by the Shia's in relation to their Imams, but the idea of "Sufi's Wali's and Auliah's" as Muslimmaniac denotes them, is something that I would genuinely like to have your view on.

Furthermore you have made much reference to the variety of Shia sects that have existed without much note for the huge amount of sects that have developed from your own Sunni quarter. It seems once again to be a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees. Especially when there are clear ENMASSE conflicts happening between the likes of Mu'awiah, Ayesha and Yazid against the Prophet Mohammeds family - you seem to forget the influential role Muawiah actually played in bringing about derision that managed to influence the emergence of the Kharijites in the first place!

And what about all the Mehdi's that have sprung up from the Sunni sides such as the Ahmadiyyah (Qaadiyyani's) and The Recently acclaimed 'Pir GauharShahi'?

What's more is that these guys aren't even Seyyed and, it is a famed belief even amongst the Sunni's that The Mehdi will be from the HOUSEHOLD of Mohammed.

The other thing that gets me, and you MUST know about this by now, is in relation to the Authenticated Sunni Hadiths pertaining to the prophecy of TWELVE RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPHS.Although SOME of the acclaimed Sunni Scholars in the past have verified that these ARE the same TWELVE IMAMS that the Shiah believe in, the rest of them either refuse to deal with the subject or they give their own seemingly ludicrous version of it, concocting a mixture of Imams and Caliphs that in certain instances even include YAZID as well as Muawiah!

MOST SHOCKINGLY amongst the narratives I have come across, (aside from the one's that assimilate themselves with the Shi'ah)NONE of them include The Master of Martyrs Imam Hussein Shaheed of Karbala.

Once again it is a deeply unfortunate truth that the Muslim Ummah has chosen the likes of Abu Bakr and Uthman, of whom the Quran testifies as having FLED in the battles of Uhud and Hunain, as their leaders in command, whilst COMPLETELY overlooking The Greatest Battle Fighter of them all, Imam Hussein Ibne Ali.

Briefly, in answer to the question posed to Hajji..

'..but what makes u think us sunni's do not follow ALI ?? he is our leader and 4th imam? we already know he is the truth and a great islamic figure'.

It is because you attempt to defend the honour of Muawiah at the same time, and there is no secret in the fact that he was Imam Ali's sworn enemy, as was his son Yazid the enemy of Imam Ali's son Hussein.

The sooner that this truth is realised, the closer you will be in love toward The Prophet Mohammed's family.

Wassalaam

Sura Al - Ma'idah (The Food)

5:12. " And certainly Allah made a covenant with the Children of Israel, and We raised among them twelve chiftains, and Allah said: ' Verily I am with you, if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My messengers and assist them and lend Allah a kindly loan, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds and I will certainly cause you to enter Gardens beneath which rivers flow; but whoever among you disbelieves after that, has indeed strayed from the right path.

Commentary:
The chiefs of the Israelites were twelve persons. The ministers of Moses (a.s.) and the custodians of the tuelve tribes were from among them. It is narrated from the Messenger of Allah (p.b.u.h.) who, in a tradition, said: " The vicegerents after me are twelve. They are as many as the chiefs of the Israelites " (1) The attempt of the opponents of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s.) is in vain when they try to adapt this figure to Orthodox Caliphs, Umayyid Caliphs, and the Caliphs of Abbasids, though it adapts to neither of them. There are, of course, many traditions recorded which denote that the Prophet himself (p.b.u.h.) mentioned the names of these twelve persons. According to his statement recorded in a tradition (2) the first of them is Ali-ibn-Abitalib and their last one is Hadrat Mahdi (May Allah hasten his auspicious advent).

TOd thats ridiculous??? this ayaa u forwarded has nothing to do with ahl al bayt.. this is like me saying allah loves palestinian people and only them will go to heaven u know why? surt al teen he says " wa teen wa zaytoon... wa hatha al balad al ameen"? those fruit plants r known to grow in palestine and allah named them and their land the most loyal ones.. oh please.

where in my comments did i say i resent ahl al bayt.. why do some of u shia put words in sunni mouths? we follow ahl al bayt as much as we follow the 3 imams and last but not least 4th imam ALI..

you know what else amazes me in shiasm....in islam and many scholars and ahadeeth tell us that a khalipha is someone who is a leader of all the muslim ummah... plz help me understand this but why and when did the 10 shia imams after ali lead the whole muslim nation?.. NEVER.

in fact after every shia imam the shia believers ended up splitting and splitting and splitting to nearly 20 different sects.

IMAM and rightious calipha must lead the WHOLE islamic ummah (state). mohammad did so...abu bakr done it omar done so and stayed 10 years being our leader and spread islam to persia turkey and all of north africa WITH HELP OF aLI TOO...uthman and ALi should of done so but hypocrites and liars killed them. (they were nominated to take cilapha by majority rule)
i just believe the word khalipha is too big thus it should lead all of muslim empire...
if shia or sunni imams couldnt unite muslims into one after ali's death then u can hardly call them caliphat!!!!!!!!!
and every shia who claims fatimah hated abu bakr is a liar and a disbeliever.. they had a falling out but she forgave him for she is a pure sinless ameerat al mumineen.just like her father SAW.. how could she hate? and how could she not forgive.

many hadeeths and here is another about abu bakr By muslim 2 the prophet when asked about abu bakr he says "" wallahi if u put abu bakr in one hand, and if u put my whole islamic ummah in another, then abu bakr will weigh more""

Astughfur allah for those who resent the companions. au bakr was one of the richest men at that time and he left all his wealth and assets behind and to the poor to fight for islam and stay with the prophet..... how stupid of u shia to say he wanted to be a caliph on the bases of power and greed? wallahi u are sick but i forgive u. it is not ur fault for being born what u are. it is hard to change our belief. i am half english and i used to speak no arabic. but hamdu lillah i done my best to learn and search for the truth...

may allah guide and help us all soon inshallah
salamz

Salaam Ali Ameem!!
I would quote from Imam Ali(as) that would sum up what you have tried to tell these people... LOL

Imam Amir-ul-Mu'mineen Ali (a.s.) said: " The most loser of people is the one who is able to tell the truth but he does not." (1)

Calm down Muslim!! calm down...read and read...my messsage was in english..not in Arabic.

Your quote "where in my comments did i say i resent ahl al bayt.. why do some of u shia put words in sunni mouths? we follow ahl al bayt as much as we follow the 3 imams and last but not least 4th imam ALI.."

My brother with a peanut brain (may Allah(swt) give you bigger brain) your resentment is right there and then when you start praising enemies of Ahl al Bait. How can you praise their enemies and still say "we love Ahl al Bait". Does it not constitute hypocrisy?
It's like saying "Oh!I love Allha(swt) but I like Shaitan too". Astghfullah

oh i see... so ur one of those shia who believe sunni people r ur enemy?

u must be the type who will beg the kuffar like america to come and invade ur country coz u have a bad leader..not knowing the fact kuffar r more enemy to you than us sunnis right?

u think sunnah r enemies of ahl al bayt lol? ur a pathetic. in every mousque or in our prayer do3aa we say
"" allahuma irham wa barik 3a abu bakr omar Ali etc and the 2 imams al hasan and the husayn". how do u call me a liar and ur enemy u stupid twat?
As i said b4 in my first comments...... it was the sect of shiasm who killed Ali (kharjis) they r the ones who followed him then stabbed him in the back. NOT SUNNI'S and NOT UMAYYADS
and a idiot like u comes to say i resent ahl al bayt lol? u resented ur own selves.

sallam bro/sis
DEAR TOD,i really think your very lost by using ha ha ha.how old are you dude???
The sura that you used has nothing to do with ahalbayt,do you think that islam is christianty,islam is easy and clear not like the christians,every thing is a mystary and needs to be figured out like the trinity.
Answer the question at hand,why did IMMAM ALI wait nearly 30 years to be calipha WHY TOD!
Go on Tod question Immam Ali R.a.
Stop making up fabricated knowdlege and excuses,Shia came only and ONLY after Immam Ali R.a.
Also Immam Ali r.a and The prophet(pbuh) accepted
Immam Umar r.a to marry Immam Ali daughter.
Shia is only a very small branch of islam which they have created ALIWIYA,Druez and so,theses are out side of islam sects belive in recarnation,weired.
Immam Ali never in his life decarled War or v.v on Ayisha mother of the belivers.

Once Again i half to us this ugly word (NAZISHIA),who are very liitle minority,who are shia to curse and sign people in hell with no knowdlege that only ALLAH knows OF.
If Immam ALI ws here i garentee Alot of shia would be killed on why they have gone astray and split the nation and ALLAHs DEEN.
For 30 odd years Immam Ali honoured and fought and prayed and whent to battle with the companions R.a and never did he make up his own sect or his own division or his own fabricated ahadith or stab himself and so on,so why after the Great Immam Ali demise,The unfearing man created a sect and people with lack of imman and knowledge followed this sect became SHIATAli.
Tod you cant even judge yourself if you are going to hevan or hell and if you say i am going to hevan for sure thats KAFFIR,so how can you judge a man that you truely dont know NOTHING of(muwaiya).
Dont you see how america makes it own history look good,but we know its all lies.
wake up and follow the prophets sunnah,not A man made sect.
ALL muslims must LOVE the companions and ahalbayt
and which greedy person said ahalbayt is only 4 people.And dont say the PROPHET(PBUH)SAID.
and became LIKE the NAZI or KKK,always blaming others and this person did this and that person did that.
The Quran,The Prophet mohammad(pbuh)and 24 other prophets(pbuh) and then best of four men that ever will live after Mohammad (pbuh)ABU BAKR,UMAR UTHMAN,AND ALI may allah be pleased with them all
Just look how the pray and praise the companions in the holiest land MECCA during HAJJ,are all these poeple astary???

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Dear Amer

Once again Amer you cannot go with the majority for the sake of it being the majority. If that were to be the case then it would be necessary to be in The Majority army of Yazid on the day of Ashura.

Ayesha was wrong in her actions according to what the Sunni scholars themselves state. However that does not mean that YOU are not Muslim. In the same light The Saudi government are unable to prevent the mass of Shia ithna Asheri to attend The Hajj, despite the fact that they know we hate all condenders of The Ahlul Bayt, be they companions or not - by the grace of God we are all muslims.

Take a look at your own sects first and the prophetic tradition that the MUSLIMS will divide into 73 divisions before you start to judge.

I thought we had ascertained anyway, that the concept of 4rightly Caliphs despite the efforts of previous historians cannot be held as a Basic Tenent of Islam.

Muslim. It is certainly not ludicrous to suggest that the Quranic Ayat about the Twelve tribes of Isreal has no metaphorical parallel to the notion of Twelve Imams. The Tafsir of certain Quranic verses as understood by the Sunnis sometimes is highly questionable also, bearing very little truth of the actual events implied.

For instance it is famous amongst you that the verse beginning with 'Qul Aaoodho be Rabbinnaas' was revealed whilst Mohammed was in a state of bewitchment via the effects of black magic.

This kind of Tafsir is unnacceptable to us Shia, and it only gives rise to books like The Satanic verses being published in view of it.

Our principal aim should be to defend The Honour of Mohammed at any cost.If his companions are disobeying him whilst he is on his deathbed refusing to fulfill his final requests, then how can we assume that the same companions are worthy to succeed him, when their actions are implying the opposite?

We will not accept excuses on the part of Muawiah and Ayesha. They are the only proof infact we need to demolish your concept of the Prophet ever having suggested 4 rightly guided Caliphs.

That is by your own standards.

In short, you cannot have your cake and eat it as well.

Wassalaam

PS Amer

The fact that Imam Ali COOPERATED and DID NOT wage war against the usurpers of his Khilaafat (DESPITE the fact that he was fully entitled to) was for the sake of Muslim unity.

'Inallah ma Saabireen', Allah is with those who are patient.

To remind you Ali's behaviour was in direct contradiction to the likes of Muawiah and Ayesha who could not wait but to take revenge for the blood of Uthmaan.

Nor was his behaviour like Umar who began to threaten the life of the muslims the moment he caught wind of Mohammed's death.

That is to answer your question ' in disbelief !' toward Tod.

Wassalaam.

PPS

Oh Yeah. Imam Ali didn't have to WAIT to be Caliph, he already was - regardless of whether the people accepted him or not; he was the FIRST of the Twelve Caliphs as Prophesised by Mohammed and NOTED in Bukhari, regardless of what excuses you wish to make up in favour of Ayesha's dad.

To further answer your question Amer

'and which greedy person said ahalbayt is only 4 people.And dont say the PROPHET(PBUH)SAID'.

Greedy people are not saying there are only four Ahlul Bayt - greedy people are implying there are TWELVE, as Sahih al Bukhari is implying AND Sahih Muslim.

Infact , THE REAL greedy people are the ones who want Abu Bakr AND Fatima, Ali AND Mu'awiah, Hussein AND Yazid.

Well, with a diet like that you can expect more than a bloody upset stomach!

Dear Amer,

in response to the following

'Stop making up fabricated knowdlege and excuses,Shia came only and ONLY after Immam Ali R.a'.

I forward to you this

The word "Shi'ah" means "followers; members of a party". Allah has mentioned in the QUR'AN that some of His righteous servants were SHI'AH of His other righteous servants.

And most surely Abraham was among the SHI'AH of him (Hazrat Nuh)
(Qur'an 37:83)

And he (MOSES) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of HIS SHI'AH and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of HIS SHI'AH cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy
(Qur'an 28:15)

Thus SHI'AH IS AN OFFICIAL WORD USED BY ALLAH IN HIS QUR'AN for His high rank Prophets as well as their followers.

Wassalaam

hahahahaha....oh my my....I can't stop laughing... oops sorry!!

I thought my arguement was with intelectuals... but just realized people got stuck on alphabets.
My apology...LOL
It does not matter how old you are or how young you are... for some it takes 40 years to accept Islam and some blessed by it at birth.

Muslim !! Where did I say that sunnis are enemies?
It must be your lack of knowledge of Quran that you can't understand the Ayats i am quoting. You must have noticed that I have given references of hadiths not only from Shias but also from sunni books such as Bukhari. Now if you say that Shaih Bukhari is wrong then it's not my problem.

So, let's start from Alphabets...How about if we start story of Islam from Adam?
What Allah (swt) had said to Angels?...He (swt) said that He will make Kahlifah on Earth (a'rz).
Let's see what He ment? To understand that we have to define what Khalifah means?
Kalifah means literally 'successor' or 'deputy'.
kalifah can be heir, like some people say about their kids that they are our khalifahs meaning our heirs. Keep in mind that this earth and whole of the universe belongs to Allah (swt) so He is entitled to have a heir, so He did make Adam as His heir (Khalifah) on earth.

Now, when Allah (swt) made Adam his Khalifah and sent him down this earth He (swt) also had put the basis of Islam with the Khalifah Adam.
He also made Kahlifahs after Adam as Quran says about Dawud in Surat Sad and called him with the title of khalifah.
It seems that Allah (swt) is the only one who make Kahlifah. So who we are to make Kahlifah by ourselves.
For example, Prophet Musa had to ask Allah (wst) that make Aron (Haroon) my Khalifah. I wonder why Musa did not make his own Khalifah? Haroon was there and Musa were going to mountain of Toor for a while (40 Days) he should have told people "ok guys here is Haroon my khalifah since I will be away for a while". It seems that he knew that he had no right so he asked Allah's permission. Allah (swt) accepted his pled.

After all those episodes the dwellers of this earth lived happily until time came of the Holy Prophet Muhmmed's (pbuh) departure from this earth. opps problem!! who he should leave as a heir or Kahalifah? Should he leave it up to people to appoint one or have them ellect one or nominate one by himself?
He (pbuh) was the highest ranking Prophet and he knew all the rules that Khalifah (heir) is always nominated by Allah (swt) also he had gone to visit (mairaj) heavens on Allah (swt)'s invitation.
Mind you since this earth belongs to Allah (swt) so there has to be a heir from Allah (swt) all the time. In conversation with Prophet (pbuh), Allah (swt) told him who He had made Khalifah and told him to announce his appointment.
Here on earth Prpohet (pbuh) was waiting for the appropriate time to announce the message of Allah in regards to Kahlifah. He waited until the time came for the his last Hajj. upon competion of Hajj he set for home and then on his way to home on the grounds of Ghadir the Almighty send his Angel with the message " O Messenger! Convey what has (just) been revealed to you (with regard to 'Ali), and if you do not do so, you will not have conveyed His Message at all, and Allah shall protect you from (evil) people. (Qur'an, 5:67)"
He (pbuh) after getting this message did not hesitate and stopped right there to announce the Allah's Khalikah on earth, the one and only Ali (as).
After this announcement the Almighty Allah (swt) send the verse "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour on you, and chosen for you Islam as a religion"
End of the story.

It is funny that when you say shia you mean the followers of Imam Ali. But shias never call themselves SHIA as a religion, it is Islam they say. It was the other people start calling them shias since they satyed with Ali (as) as the Prophet (pbuh) had told them to do so. Whoever deviated from Ali (as) was away from Islam.

Cheers...and don't take habit of getting mad... Shais still think Sunnis are Muslims and their brothers.

btw...hahahaha...I love it!!

Dear Brothers

We can soley thank Saddam Hussein for having surrendered to The Evil American's. After having recieved their help for so many years whilst WARRING like a maniac against his fellow neighbour Iran, he would have most certainly have done better to surrender to The Ayatollah's instead.

So Much for the 'Mother of all Battles'.

Wassalaam

Seyyed Kazmi!

Ya Ali Madad brother, Ya Ali Madad.

NARAAEEEEEEEEY HAYDERI !!! Ya Ali!!!

Wassalaam

Dear Muslim

I would like to ponder here for a while on your posted comment.

'you know what else amazes me in shiasm....in islam and many scholars and ahadeeth tell us that a khalipha is someone who is a leader of all the muslim ummah... plz help me understand this but why and when did the 10 shia imams after ali lead the whole muslim nation?.. NEVER'.

If you ask me to pick out AFTER IMAM ALI the KHALIFA'S that had POLITICAL rule over the whole Muslim empire, on the basis of what YOU are trying to imply I'd end up having to follow not only Muawi'ah but his father Yazid.

I bring you back to my point that Imam Hussain WAS the Khalifa of the ENTIRE MUSLIM EMPIRE being the third divinely appointed Imam via prophecy of Mohammed.

The fact that he only had seventy two followers in his army makes no difference.

All the Imams after him were The REAL Spiritual and Political heirs to not only Mohammed's KNOWLEDGE but to his EMPIRE also.

Whether or not the subjects of the Empire wish to admit it or not is another matter.

Allah knows it, Mohammed knows it and The Angels Know it.

Infact The Quran is ORDERING the Muslims to give one fifth of their annual savings to 'the next of kin' ie Mohammed's family, so by Quranic Right The Imams after Mohammed should of all been LOADED giving them the funds to manage the affairs of the Muslim Nation at large.

If Sunni Caliphs like Yazid and his counterparts after him were loathe to see any of that money go to the Imams then that was their business.

Allah's business is something else.

We lay to testimony that Imam Hussein is THE THIRD KHALIFAH. Even if you cut his head of he is still THE THIRD KHALIFAH.

Furthermore, the existence of a TWELFTH Imam Al Mehdi in the form of the only surviving son of The Eleventh Hassan Al Askari is something that some of your own established Sunni Scholars have testified to.

The insinuation on your part that there are only ten Imams after Imam Ali alayhissalaam remains as just that, an insinuation.

Wassalaam

Dear Muslim

If we ARE going to accuse the Shi'ahs of being Kharijites then we shall first accuse Umar of being the same, through virtue of him giving allegience to Imam Ali on The Day of Ghadir. Infact he was The First to Pay him allegience in the public view.

The Clear act of hypocrysy lies in the fact that no sooner had Mohammed passed away he took it all back and gave his vote to Ayesha's father.

With this in view it is quite possible to accuse Umar therefore of being The First Shi'ite, but that would be an insult unto you in as much as it would be an insult unto us.

In the light of the evidences forwarded by 'Muslim' however, we may assume that great Sahabi such as AWAIS QIRNI and AMMAAR IBNE YAASIR, WERE infact SHI'AH, having been shaheed on The battle field of Siffeen against Muawiah's army.

The Kharijites, like Umar who had also at one time fought alongside Ali in the battlefield, similarly abandoned his leadership and can therefore NEVER be considered to be of The Partisans of Ali.

Once again it was Muawiah THE UMMAYYAD that gave rise to all this bloodshed in the first instance, having played initially on this breakaway sect by tricking them out of a continuing battle that Ali, was most certainly about to win.

The plan obviously backfired on himself as attempts on his own life were later on carried out by the same group.

Imam Ali refused to back them a second time due to their betrayal, so yes, they had him murdered.

The cause and effect of all of this however, can once again be aligned to Muawiah, who was happier at the announcement of the death of Ali than he was when he heard about the death of Uthman.

And you think he wasn't in it for the money.
Well congratulations everyone you got yourself The Khilaafat in the form of Yazid because of him.

Accuse the Shi'ahs of being Kharijites at the cost of yourselves being called Yazidis.

Would that you understood the link between Muawiah and Yazid - we would not consider you to be so Naive.

Wassalaam.

hi again AliAmeen

Good Good points u made and yes i heard about mohammad (SAW) being cursed by some jew or something..but we r losing the point here, its not a big issue to divide a nation!!

Again u mention about Ali and again i think u contradict urself... When u say Ali didnt fight against the wrongful companions so that he doesnt divide the islamic nation??? ok point is proven.

He didnt fight coz there r many hadeeths stating even if u have a bad leader u should not segregate. there is a ayaa in surt al-anaam.. specifically saying that. And sayiduna Ali lived according to islamic laws by quran and hadeeths of prophet. He was a great man and waited his turn in khilapha...... WHY WHY WHY? coz he remembered the words of allah and mohammad by not being angry nor divide the ummah.. so why did the shia divide it? out of rage and anger? ur Ali didnt do so why did u people do it? thats when the HARAM comes in. U done Ali wrong and he rather if abu bakr and companions were in the wrong to carry on living under their rule so this sunnni vs shia thing doesnt exist.

"i3tasimo be-habl illah wala tafaraqo" ( grab hold of Allah rope and dont seperate).then allah carries on by saying those who do seperate he deals not with in ther hereafter..

who seperated us? umayyads and aysha were upset over uthman death yes. they wanted to go iraq to get justise for him..... Ali was angry and yes he fought them to prove they were in the wrong coz he could not prosecute those killers until there r witnesses. he explained this to aysha once cought in battle then he let he be free. she appologised and she knew she was in the wrong. but no need to take it extreme and call her a rejector of ahl al bayt.

Do you people think its easy after death of mohammad for any man to take his next poisition?

it was such a hard job to live up to the prophet standards and life. and the companions and even ALi would of had their mistakes no doubt in that.
Mistakes do not mean great sins do not confuse the staement!!

Listen to what ur saying my shia brothers... YOU SAY ALI did not fight against the companions to take leadership. coz he did not want to seperate muslims... WHy did he do such thing.. because he knew it was haram to go against the quran verses in segregating from the majority (AL_ANAAM). U a shia done so u seperated from the majority. so u r the ones who went against ur own Ali's words and behaviour NOT sunni's.

HAVE AN OPEN MIND!!!

and last... u all assume we r against ahl al bayt when b4 i stated that many of our hadeeth scholars and narrators have actually studied and been tought by many imams of ahl al bayt?? do not lie and do not make false comments about sunni's.

We accept the fact we had bad leaders and we need to live with it. but we wont resent the companions. and we wont resent tha fact that there was no 3 khilaphat b4 ALI? there was and u need to live with it.. if not then u r the ones allah stated in surt AL_ANNAM in quran those who seperate will not be looked at tomorrow in hereafter!!

i love to see shia as our 5th sunni sect.. we r very close u know and inshallah we will all unite tomorrow and fight the fukkar ameeen.

SALAM

hahahaha...kids

Salaam Muslim!! your quote ""i3tasimo be-habl illah wala tafaraqo" ( grab hold of Allah rope and dont seperate).then allah carries on by saying those who do seperate he deals not with in ther hereafter.."

Hey brother!! ever though what that Allah's rope is?
They are the Imams my dear friend...Allah has refered them as His rope...like chain... Chain of Imams...like chain reaction...like Allah's connection like...follow them... how can I explain to you.
So hang on with Allah's rope...otherwise in your words "those who do seperate he deals not with in ther hereafter.."

Cheers

Seyyed Ali Ameem Naqvi...masha-Allah..Allah jazay-e-khair daay.

NARAAEEEEEEEEY HAYDERI !!! Ya Ali!!!

dushmanan-e-Ahl al Bait per lanat... bay shumar
o' mai kia Fatemah Zahra ka bagh kah key kithey chey... asi tanoo lattan torney key wastey ain se.

OMG was he that bad!!

"Mauweyah invited Ayesha for dinner, and he got a ditch dug in the ground, filling it up with sharp knives and swords, with their blades facing upwards. According to Alama Ibn Khaldoon, Mauweyah masked that ditch with lanky pieces of wood, and spread a carpet on top of it all to camouflage it. He placed a wooden chair over it for Ayesha to sit. No sooner Ayesha sat on the chair, the whole set up retrieved and she fell in the pit, injuring herself from head to toe, and breaking a lot of bones. To hide his felony, Mauweyah got the ditched filled up with lime. That is how he murdered Ayesha; she was sixty four years old when Mauweyah murdered her towards the end of 57 Hijri. This proves, with out a doubt, that Mauweyah was an enemy of Prophet Mohammed (p), and he proved his enmity towards the Prophet (p) by murdering his (p) wife. The only reason that Mauweyah performed this heinous act was that Ayesha stopped him from making fun of Islam from the pulpit of Masjid-e-Nabvi.. This is why no one knows the exact location of Ayesha’s grave in Medina."

...Due to this crime, Allah (SWT)’s wrath fell on Mauweyah and parts of his body became paralyzed, and he became delusional. It was under this state of delusion that Mauweyah acknowledged he had ordered the murder of many companions of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh&hp) and their children for the sake of his tyrant son Yazid....

....Mauweya was a nefarious politician. He was the son of Abu Sufyan, the leader of Mecca, who spent his whole life opposing Prophet Mohammad (pbuh&hp) in Mecca. He was also the leader of every pagan army that fought against the Islamic armies. Muaweyah’s mother was Hinda, who martyred Hazrat Hamza (RA), Prophet Mohammad's (pbuh&hp) uncle and chopped his body into pieces, which didn’t satisfy her appetite, so she tried to eat his heart. Mauweyah never accepted Islam in his heart. After the conquest of Mecca by Prophet Mohammad (pbuh&hp), both Mauwiya and his father Abu Sufyan accepted Islam as a necessity of the time with a loathing heart. After the murder of Uthman, Mauweyah rebelled against the fourth elected caliph Hazrat Ali (RA).

...All Historians have mentioned in disgust that Mauweyah (the governor of Damascus) back stabbed Islam when he made a thirty year peace treaty with the Roman king, rather than fighting for Islam, according to which Syria came under the rule of Roman empire and Mauweyah agreed to give thirty thousand coins, fifty Arab slaves and fifty Arab horses to the Roman king every year.

All of the Muslims of that era disliked this gesture of Mauwiya and cursed him."

Sunni References:

Musharriful Mahbubin by Hazrat Khuwaja Mehboob Qasim Chishti Mushrrafi Qadri (RA) Pages 216-218

Kokab wa Rifi Fazal-e-Ali Karam Allah Wajhu, Page 484, By Syed Mohammed Subh-e-Kashaf AlTirmidhi, Urdu translation by Syed Sharif Hussein Sherwani Sabzawari, Published by Aloom AlMuhammed, number B12 Shadbagh, Lahore, 1st January 1963.

Habib Alseer Rabiyah AlAbrar, Volume 1, Alama JarulAllah Zamik (530 Hijri),

Hadoiqa Sanai, by Hakim Sanai (Died 525 Hijri, at Ghazni), Page 65-67,

Namoos Islam, by Agha Hashim Sialkoti, Published Lahore, 1939 - Pages 66-67

Tazkarah Tul-Aikram Tarikh-e-Khulafa Arab-Wa-Islam by Syed Shah Mohamed Kabir Abu Alalaiyi Dana Puri, Published Le Kishwar Press, Lakhnow, April 1924/ 1346 H

hey TOD...

how is the line and rope allah mentions us to grab hold of is of the 12 imams. shia"t Ali existed after the quran was completed. shia't Ali formed their own sect therefore they seperated from the jama3a (majority).

ur lying to urself again?

Dear Muslim

A rope my friend depicts a single line or thread and it is more appropriate to attribute this,in metaphore, to twelve CONSECUTIVE Imams or Caliphs than it is to depict the mass of Muslims,
who were for instance, under the military influence of an 'evil' leader such as Yazid.

You say about Imam Ali

'He didnt fight coz there r many hadeeths stating even if u have a bad leader u should not segregate',

and I say in reply that this is a typicaly flawed argument of the Sunni's and, the Thoroughly Purified member of the Ahlu Bayt as depicted in ch 33 vs 33 of the Holy Quran ie IMAM HUSSAYN, is a proof for us as he DID break away from the Majority Ummah in his stance against 'The Mainstream' Caliph of The Muslims YAZID.

A large part of The Holy Quran is dedicated to The Prophet Mohmmed's family, although that may not be necessarily clear to you there is no need for you to seem so surprised if we corrolate verses of the Quran in favour of them.

I am sure there are instances also whereby The Sunni scholars agree in the Tafsir of many verses that pertain to the Ahlul Bayt. As you say, this may indeed seem unsurprising due to the Hadith from your authentic books whose narrators were known Raafidha (Shi'ah).

Instead of contradicting yourself by exclaiming the Shi'ah have gone against the Quran by separating themselves from the Majority, why do you instead not say that Yazid HIMSELF went against the Quran by fighting against the Ahlul Bayt?

The Rope of Allah, The rope of Allah. What on earth do you think Yazid was clinging to - The Rope of Allah?

Besides, you say you love to see us as The Fifth School of Thought then here is some solace for you.

We ARE joined with the Majority during the time of Hajj when all the muslims are circumbulating the Ka'abah we are not seperate from you.

During the Salaat ul Jama'ah we are not seperate from you.

When we are running between Safah and Marwah we are not seperate from you.

When we are throwing the stones at ' Those Three Shaitan ' we are not seperate from you.

When we eat the meat that has been Slaughtered by your own hands we are not seperate from you.

And if and when you ever get to Karbala or Najaf or go to Iran, if you eat the meat that has been slaughtered by our hands, you will not be seperate from us.

We are unprepared however to accept the illigitimate rule of leaders that have come from The Mainstream sector even if we have no choice but to cooperate with them.

This is the Sunnah of Imam Ali, who NEVER gave his allegiance to your first three Caliphs and ALWAYS stood for his claim as legitimate successor to MOHAMMED, who HIMSELF had nominated him at the valley of Ghadir some days after the final Hajj ceremonies.

Similarly you will note that despite IMMENSE pressure Imam Hussein NEVER gave his allegience to Yazid.

You will also find that after the CRUEL Shahaadat of Imam Hussein not a SINGLE Caliph of the Mainstream majority even DARED ask for allegience from any one of the nine 'PROPHESISED' Imams after him.

We can only affirm that it was their forefather Imam Ali who had set the precedent for this stance against a man made system of leadership, who through , cooperation, passive resistance and PATIENCE saved the Muslim Ummah from senseless bloodshed.

Wassalaam

As far as I am concerned when Muslims go to Hajj the only thing they do is circle around Imam Ali's hospital where he was born.... how is that for a big ibadat? And they run between Safah and Marwah for Bibi Hajirah the mother of Ismael and when they go for shaitan stoning at three places they stone three "very Big Shaitan". After Hajj most of them don't perform tawafun-nisaa so their wives become haram for them and when the children are born from them they are called Ba'stards.
Now listen to one of the Hadith from the Prophet (pbuh)"O' Ali, only the ba'stards dislike you"
No wonder Mauwiah and his friends hated him until today!!

sallam bro/sis

why do shia make the quran a quiz,allah says one thing and man changes it why?
Its like the trinity never mentioned in the bible but they make things up and really belive its in their but only a few can figure it

The prophet (pbuh) says Allah has made the halal clear and the haram clear and anythinkg between them is haram,i think some of the shia belifs is between them.
Tod the prophet(pbuh) says to much laughter kills the imman,i think thats whats happening to you my dear freind losing touch with you imman.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Hi ALi Ameen...... and i kind of agree to most comments u have made. yazid was a bad leader and hell inshallah he will rot in.

but how many times do i tell u that ahl al bayt r part of all the muslim community. as big as they r in ur eyes they are the same to us.

dont ignore my statements on the fact our scholars and madhab founders have also been known to unite with some ahl al bayt characters to make hadeeths etc.

many saheeh hadeeths state the prohphet SAW saying " i ask u never to seperate my ummah and if one leader of urs turns bad wait and have faith in allah for he will bring u better" and the hadeeths i read carry on by saying that it is down to us muslims to rise and get rid of them unjust leaders but never to seperate. the muslims did not rise against yazid they seperated.

i believe sunni and shia will both go to heaven and i find it hard to believe in this time of life the 73 sects mean anything!!

there r hadeeths saying that one of the signs before day of judgement is when religion is so weak n a man says ALLAHU AKBAR only he shall enter heaven... meaning after wars and when men remember what their fathers used to say etc ( DONT CONFUSE)

i know today we have quran and we have books so many have been known to be written and i bet many r twisted and favoured by so and so!! we r born in difficult times and i beg u all to pray and ask allah to guide us... it is not easy.

i am a sunni and say i am in the wrong sect!! does that make a shia man who drinks and cheats better than me and more acceptable to go heaven than me? and vice versa...i really dont think so!

Allah ya rahman ya raheem ya ghaffar ya kareem have mercy on ur slaves and only u know whats in our hearts. if we die not following the rightious way plz forgive us for we r trying to find this way. we learn and we try and if the truth couldnt be found plz know we tried.

Keep ur hearts clean bro's n sisters thats more important than anything nowadays and he will look after us inshallah.

A GREAT STORY ABOUT MOHAMMAD (saw)
when he was with Ali and the companions he looked sad and upset,
then when asked oh prophet of allah why r u so down.
he says " i am old and grey now and my time is near. i am sad because i miss my brothers!. one turned to him and said but we r ur brothers and we r here by ur side?
MOHAMMAD SAYS "NO"..u are my friends...MY BROTHERS r those who will be living after my death and only know me from what they read or hear their fathers say.

i love u O mohammad. salam

Abu-Hurayra and the Shaping
of Traditional Islam
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Many Muslims and non-Muslims who study Islam are overwhelmed by the number of
Ahadiths narrated by or attributed to Abu Hurayra. The corruption that entered traditional
Islam came through many false hadiths. Thousands of these hadiths were narrated by Abu
Hurayra. Next to QURAN, the word of God, Abu Hurayra is the second source for many
religious matters for traditional Muslims.

Who is Abu Hurayra any way ?
Islamic history books have enough about him to support the commandment in the Quran to
accept no hadiths but the Quran. See Quran 7:185, 45:6, 77:50, 39:23, 50:45......etc.

Abu Hurayra, came from Yemen in the seventh year of Hijra and converted to Islam.
He stayed in the company of the Prophet Muhammed less than two years

He narrated more than 5000 hadiths, about 5374 hadiths, from this two years
company, (Compare this with the few hadiths narrated by Aisha, Abu Baker, or
Omar after very long company of the prophet) .

" Taken from a book entitled Hadith Literature: It's Origin, Development, &
Special Features by Muhammed Zubayr Siddiqui:

1. Abu Hurayra narrated 5374 hadiths

4. 'Aisha Umm al-Mu'minin, 2210 hadiths

10. Umar Ibn al-Khattab, 537 hadiths

11. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, 536 hadiths

31. Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, 142 hadiths

First number indicates rank among all of those who narrated hadiths,
...second number indicates number of Ahadith given.

Compare the numbers of Hadiths given by Abu Baker by that of Abu Hurayra
while keeping in mind that Abu Baker accompanied our beloved Prophet for
about 23 years, while Abu Hurayra accompanied the Prophet for less than 2
years. 142 hadiths for 5374 hadiths.

Most of Abu Hurayra's narrated hadiths are called the "Aahad" hadiths, i.e.
hadiths only witnessed by one person, this one person was Abu Hurayra
himself. ( where is the rule of two witnesses for the truth, disregarded for
the sake of Abu Hurayra).

Some of the Prophets companions (Sahaba) accused him of being a liar, telling
lies about the prophet just to make up more hadiths and gain some status.
Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second guided Khalifa threatened Abu Hurayra to
send him to exile if he does not stop telling hadiths about Muhammed, he did
stop until Omar's assassination then started again.

He kept telling hadiths to please the Khalifa of the Muslims then, all the
time, including the time he lived in the royal palace of Muawaya in Syria.
Abu Hurayra told his audience that he is telling them hadiths that if he ever
mentioned when Omar was alive, he would be given several lashes.

Abu Jaafar Al Iskafy mentioned that the Khalifa, Muawaya, chose some of the
people, including Abu Hurayra to tell fabricated stories and hadiths about
Ali Ibn Abu Talib, the Prophet's cousin, to degrade him. Abu Hurayra lived in
Mu'aawiyah's royal palace then and served him including serving his political
views. He produced some of the hadiths that demean Ali, insult him and at
least make him in a lower grade to Abu Baker, Omar and Othman, only for the
pleasure of Mu'aawiyah. Abu Hurayra's stomach was more important than the
trtuh, then.

During Mu'aawiyah's rule, many hadiths, with the help of Abu Hurayra were
invented that support the view that the Imam or Khalifa, should be obeyed
just like God or the messenger. Contradicting the rule of the Quran that all
the matters should be democratic by consultation.(Do not forget that Abu
Hurayra was living in the Khalifa's royal palace at the time.)

Many of the hadiths that were narrated by Abu Hurayra contradict other
hadiths, including his own narrated hadiths and other people's hadiths and
contradict the Quran and contradict common sense.

Abu Hurayra narrated hadiths after Kaab Al Ahbar, who was a Jewish convert
who tried to explain the Quran by using the corrupted books of the Jews. He
produced some of the most outrageous hadiths that is full of contradiction to
the Quran, taken from false stories in the Torah.

The Islamic historians told the story of Abu Hurayra after given the
governorship of Bahrain by Omar, got very rich in two years, so Omar called
him back and told him

" You, the enemy of Allah, you stole the money of Allah. I made you the Emir
of Bahrain when you did not even have a pair of shoes, Where did you get
all this money (400,000 Dirham)?? " The history indicates that Omar took
10,000 Dirham from him.(Abu Huraura admitted for only 20,000 Dirham)

Abu Hurayra was the one accused most of fabricating hadiths. Aisha, the
Prophet's wife always accused him of telling inaccurate or incomplete stories
and of fabricating hadiths that she never heard the prophet saying them.

AISHA AND ABU HURAYRA, ON THE ODDS;

In the famous book "Taa'oueel Mukhtalaf Alhadith " by Ibn Qutaiba Al-Dinory,
the story of Aisha (the Prophet's wife) telling Abu Hurayra; " You tell ahadiths
about the prophet Muhammed that we never heard them from him"

He answered (as Bukhary reported); "You (Aisha) were busy with your mirror and
make up" She (Aisha) answered him; "It is you who were busy with your stomach
and hunger. Your hunger kept you busy, you were running after the people in
the allies, begging them for food, and they used to avoid you and get away from your
way, and finally you would come back and pass out infront of my room and the people
think you were crazy and step all over you."

If we apply the supposedly rigid criteria used to select those who narrated hadiths, Abu
Hurayra will be the first one to fail the test and his hadiths will be the first to be counted
among the fabrications.

aliameen !!!

i am doing my best learning about shia as much as i do on sunnah, and i was wondering if u can help me out on this matter am seeking help with plz.

its about Narjis who u claim al Askari married in a quick mut3a marriage and the so called Mahdi is her son etc.
i cant seem to find her in history books nor her father who shia say is roman emporer "Yoshua" a descendant of the apostle Simon peter who was son of Caesar.
I searched many history roman books and stories and i couldnt find her nor her father and all roman Byzantine emporers at that time 686AD were not related or descendants of Simon peter.

i studied hard to find this information in library and online but there is no such people. in fact so far i believe this whole story is a lie. if u can guide me it'll be nice and tell me what books to look into if any plz.

SALAMZ... oh and read the previous article above ,,that was also dedicated to u lol

A Call for Shia Sunni Dialog
Why and How

Shia-Sunni violence has been on the rise in the last few years, particularly in Iraq and Pakistan. Every month, it seems, scores of Shias and Sunnis are killed in a vicious tit-for-tat between extremists on both sides. Many of the victims are killed as they pray or are in mosques.

These incidents belie the reality of Shia-Sunni coexistence and cooperation. In Iraq, it is estimated that up to 30 percent of marriages are between Shias and Sunnis; victims of violence between the two groups frequently attend each other's funeral prayers; one group often helps the other's victims after an incident.

This silent majority must come together through dialog to defeat the terrorists who have been responsible for these killings.

Seven reasons why a dialog between Shia and Sunni is needed:
• Theological differences between Shia and Sunni are old and are better left for God to judge, as He knows best and has said in the Quran that He is the final judge of religious disagreements. The killing of Shias or Sunnis will not resolve these disputes.
• The principle of "no compulsion in matters of faith" (Quran 2:256) is not just limited to Muslim-non-Muslim relations. It applies to Muslim interpretations of Islam as well. This instruction of God serves as a guideline for the Muslim community to not impose one's interpretation on others. That is why throughout history, not only have Hanafis and Shafis worked with each other despite differences, but Shias and Sunnis have lived and worked side by side with each other as well.
• When human beings sit down and talk to each other, they learn to respect each other.
• Dialog allows parties to understand each other better by allowing participants to acquire direct knowledge about beliefs instead of relying on propaganda and stereotypical images. (Quran 49:6-12)
• Dialog will isolate the extremist fringe. It is a major sin to kill a human being. Killing a human being is like killing the whole of humanity. By talking to each other, Shias and Sunnis will be able to save lives, which is like saving the whole of humanity. (Quran 5:32)
• Revenge is not justice. Killing in revenge is unjust, inhuman, and un-Islamic. Retribution through the state, which the Quran sanctions via capital punishment does not amount to individuals taking the law in their hands or killing an innocent person in revenge. The call for, "an eye for an eye," does not mean an innocent eye for an innocent eye.
• Even if some Shias and Sunnis consider each other enemies, the Quran asks us to be just even toward one's enemy "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for God, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to Piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [Quran 5:8]
Some considerations for dialog:

The Shia community like Sunnis is diverse. There are many differences between one Shia group and another. This is why it is important that dialog between Sunnis and Shias becomes a movement and a process throughout society instead of everyone waiting for one high powered dialog to yield some results at the leadership level. Here are some preliminary thoughts on how a dialog between Shias and Sunnis can be beneficial for each side.

Goals of dialog

Although I consider dialog a process that is beneficial to all, it is necessary that everyone involved recognize some of its tangible benefits. The following are a set of achievable goals for Shia-Sunni dialog.
• Developing an agenda of common concerns
• Identifying issues of conflict
• Issuing joint Fatwas against the killings
• Isolating extremists on each side
• Preventing a potential conflict or mediating an existing conflict
• Education to clarify stereotypes about each other
• Setting up joint task forces to deal with outstanding issues
Who should participate in the dialog
• Imams and caretakers of Masjids
• Students of Madrassas
• University students
• National level religious leadership
• Shia and Sunni media persons
• Shia and Sunni businesspersons
Mechanism of dialog

Dialog is a process that should occur at all levels of society. In the 1960s in Pakistan, when Shia- Sunni fights were far less significant, city officers used to convene joint meetings of Shia and Sunni leaders to chalk out Muharram plans so no confusion would result in rioting. These government-arranged dialogs helped keep conflicts at a minimum. Considering the current level of mistrust, it will be beneficial if civil society takes initiatives for dialog at all levels of society.
• Private Dialog: Host roundtable discussions initially at the top leadership level that should later expand to include
• thers working on different committees.
• Public Dialog: Shia and Sunni both use public forums and media to speak to each other's audiences
• Visiting each other's Masjids to enhance confidence and to demonstrate that they are not supportive of the extremists who isolate each other.
• Shia-Sunni Dinners: Masjids and social associations should invite Shia and Sunni friends to eat with each other publicly.
Publicity of dialog

Publicity of the dialog will generate hope and confidence in it and will empower those in dialog vis-a-vis the extremists.
• Media should facilitate self-criticism and introspection by the religious leadership
• Those leaders who participate in dialog should be recognized through interviews, reports, and documentaries
• Investigative reports should be aired and published about the truth behind sectarian propaganda
• It is important for society to honor those Shia and Sunni leaders who take initiative and demonstrate leadership in participating in dialog. Sunnis, being members of the majority community, have the higher level of responsibility towards initiating and participating in dialog
Sponsors of Dialog

Funding always facilitates the beginning of a process in civil society. Every task requires time and money. While participating organizations and individuals can take care of their own costs, it would be very rewarding if some individuals and businesses came forward with funds to sponsor and host these dialogs. Guyanese Muslims can start a dialog in Guyana where there is no conflict in the Shia-Sunni community and then inspire and sponsor dialogs where it is needed the most.

Beyond Dialog

Considering that Shias and Sunnis live side by side in the Muslim world, they are not unknown to each other, and considering that most of them have nothing to do with the current extremism which is responsible for the killings and violence, it is important for the moderate majority to come up with a few initiatives which are beneficial for Shia- Sunni harmony. These could be communicated in the print form or in any other media. They should discuss the following themes and/or use the methods outlined here:
• Khutba points which can help harmony
• What type of talk can hurt at personal level
• What is common between Shias and Sunnis
• Common Hadith between Shias and Sunnis
• What is hate speech
• Islamic teachings of tolerance
• A Shia-Sunni security force, jointly safeguarding each otherâs houses of worship will be a significant blow to the extremist agenda.
Conclusion

Shia-Sunni conflict and sectarian terrorism is tearing our community apart.

The Quran, the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, the Kaba and the five pillars of Islam are common to Shias and Sunnis. That is why no one in Islamic history has stopped Shias from performing Hajj, although the Kaba has always been in the control of Sunnis. Even today, when those currently in charge of the Kaba are part of a predominantly Salafi establishment, which maintains extremely negative views of Shias, Shias like other Muslims are free to perform Hajj. Shias, by the same token, since the 1979 Iranian revolution, are ordered by Imam Khomeini to pray behind these same Salafi imams instead of praying separately.

This mutual recognition gives us hope that a dialog can bear fruit of peace and harmony between both the communities.

Dear Muslim.

Sorry. Unable to help you here as I implied before I do not know much about the geneology of Bibi Narjis Khaatoon.

It is possible that you may be quoting from a weak hadith however, in the same way that Sunni's have weak Hadith's so do the Shi'a - so it may not necessarily be fair to call it a 'lie'.

Otherwise we might accuse the whole heap of collections that you have showered in favour of Abu Bakr and Umar as 'lies' also.

I will try to find out however, but on the condition that you forward to me The More Pressing Information regarding details as to Who YOUR Twelve Caliphs are.

Rather than search around studiously into the books of Historical Rome ( by the way I'd be interested if you quoted me the names of those you've looked at) I want you to look into YOUR OWN books to give me a list of TWELVE CALIPHS that you can find, name them to me and THEN we might start talking on a level PARR.

I find the attitude of SOME of the people on this website very strange.

You seem to claim to WANT to be united with the Shia, (and I sense your friendliness) but the things that we ARE able to unite on, such as TWELVE RIGHTLY GUIDED CALIPHS you seek to destroy.

I swear I have viewed the website from which you take your information from with regard to Bibi Narjis Khatoon, and not only does it FULLY attempt to defame The Twelver Shi'ahs into the Kaafir bracket it attempts to do the same to The other Major Sunni Sufi orders as well.

Infact anything that the Wahabbi's view as outside of their own sect they brand as KAAFIR.

When certain esteemed Sunni Scholars have themselves agreed that the only feesible option to take with regard to The Twelve Caliph issue, is to accept that which the Shia take as the same, then why you even begin to go down this NEWLY INSPIRED WAHABBI route, is beyond me.

I suspect that you may be somehow confused in one area or another and quite possibly have some soul searching to do.

I swear there are some people, who in the shallow pit of their brain wish to Scream Kaafir Kaafir Shiah Kaafir, AND pretend to be their friends at the same time, whilst trying to find an open area of attack.

People like Seyyidinna, who unfortunately was unable to RETRACT FAVOUR from Naazla's comment quoted below...

'ahhaha i was looking at this footage from iraq at this lady getting shot on her knee caps by sum sunniz and she was a shia.... anyways she died and then her husband tried to act tuff and tried to stop them and he got shot point blank as soon as i saw this i put my hands up and said ya allah bless the killers of these kaffirs that husband and wife died by a sunnis hand let the sunnis live and kaffirs die....ooooo man he was shot point blank when i saw that i was like YEAH FUCK THE Shias ahahhaha it looks so good wen you shias die i swear i hope u men keep dying long live SUNNIs the real sunnatul rasoullah'

... despite the fact that he was so easily able to claim to have gone to Baghdad AND Najaf, to have prayed with the Shi'ahs and after all that asked such a predictably naive question as to 'why do the Shiah pray on rocks'??!!

I tell you what, this is what I call a good Sunni Muslim and there are MANY of them out there - although not all from the Western World.

They believe in the SAME Twelve Imams that the Shiah do, They believe in The Twelfth Imam as being the Mehdi AND that he is alive on earth and Awaiting to lead The Ummah with the help of Hazrat Isa, They believe that Yazid was illigitimate and so was Muawiah, BOTH in the same light - but they also believe in the four Caliphs and they pray with their arms folded.

These people exist all over places like Pakistan I kid you not, I have been there and witnessed and heard it for myself. VERY few people actually LIKE Muawiah and Yazid.

So my friend Muslim. If you are genuinely looking for common ground with us as a fifth school of thought then there is a lot of ground to cover.

If you are thinking within your own brain however that the supposed Awliah descending from Imam Hassan up to Qaadir al Jilaani, has a greater spiritual lineage than THE IMAMS descending from Al HUSSAYN then I can only imagine that you are the first Sufi Wahabbi I have managed to have the opportunity to debate with.

In short I am not convinced of the sincerety of your last post, neither am I convinced of your solution for unity with the Corrupt Caliphs such as Yazid, to whom you imply we should not be segregated from.

If you're attempting to convince the Shi'ah Twelvers around to your school of thought then you will first of all have to deal with the EXTENSIVE referrences provided from the SUNNI SOURCES by Tod, which no one up until this point has effectively been able to do - instead of simply passing them by as mere ramblings.

In my view that is research enough for you my friend.

Wassalaam

aliameeen lol...salamz bro

thats so funny me being a sufi wahabi lol u bum if i was that i go kill myself b4 you lol

i loved what u forwarded about shia sunni in need of some sort of unity together etc as history has made us read and fight over different points.

First of all... those sunni's in iraq killing shia r kuffar and i wouldnt classify them as anything but ignorant animals who allah should burn in hell.

secondly.. i have read no haidths about lady Narjis i honestly have been doing my own research and reading over history of certain charcters in both sunni and shia groups. i want to be close to shia culture and side for i believe in ahl al bayt deeply. i will never doubt myself as to having a bad ahl al bayt leader or person.. i read my quran and i know allah purified them so i dont think i will ever disagree on any people who r related to my prophet.

wallahi bro there has never been a day gone by where i pray or sleep and not cry knowing that fact i am still lost. i am trying hard to search the truth.
As for my caliphs (12 as u put them) i am still searching and studying. i have managed to accept the 4 caliphs then believed in hassan and hussayn. i am stuck after that but dont think am not learning more : ) so in total i agree on all the 6 i just mentioned and allah knows best.

as i mentioned in an article previously after hussayn death some shia decided to follow hussayn bro! ibn al hanifiyya as i recall and others followed his son Ali etc..it is hard to keep up with them but am studying :)

i am not following any particular group right now i am just searching the truth. i was born a sunni but for me if born sunni or shia that is not enough.. i want the truth. shia contradict sunni and sunni do the same all believe he is better than the other........ the more this carries on the harder it is to believe in whos better than who!! the debates r endless!!
its like 1-1 then 2-1 then 3-1 some days u win n other we win!.

And yes i know about wahabi's hating shia lol i find it pathetic and wrong.

i am not talking about unity with the past!! i am talking about NOW. we r living in a very difficult time and we need to strengthen our relations. we need to stop dwelling over the past and the corrupted leaders and unite.
Yazid for us sunni;s is a corrupt kafir. there r hadiths stating mohammad SAW saying :

" when Ali becomes ur imam n u do not follow then u will upset me and if u hurt my family then u hurt me"

SO.. who the hell is Yazid to me? he is a son of a BEEP BEEP who i hope allah punishes and gives me the pleasure of meeting and stoning to death.

i am waiting on meeting few shaikhs and people to discuss my issues lol

i really want to believe in 4 sunnah caliphs then move on to the 11 imams after etc but i dont know if this is considered a crime in islam lol

maybe tomorrow i make my own sect huh hehe (JOKE)

yalla salamz

HMMMMM

who is yazid to me? i think i meant to say mu3awiya who fought ali. ty

actrually i should be thanking Kamal shakir for his article on shia and sunni unity!! not ali ameen lol

well spoken Kamal.

As a muslim those who fight their brothers in islam their SHIHADA wont be accepted in allah's eyes. whether u like it or not whether ur sunni or shia we r brothers. the 73 sects might not be all so perfect but allah doesnt mean the 72 going to hell wont be accepted in heaven later.. do not confuse this hadeeth which means allah considers most sects as muslims. we r brothers those who do not speak with his muslim brother for 1 day is considered a sinner by mohammad (SAW) sayings. those who kill another muslim with no justified reason is considered a KAFIR. so whether u like it or not mr ALi lol i am ur brother and i will be there for u as much as u should be for me!

i condemnd al Qaida and bin ladin even after twin tower bombings. the killings of children and women in islam is wrong! our prophet did not once fight a war unless it was out of defence. We all need to be like him and learn from him. do u think mohammad(SAW) isnt praying for us right now in heaven do u think he wont forgive the people of today for being misguided?

Salams brother (lol) muslim,

The verse of authority which leads to caliphs or meaning Imams is mentioned in the Qur'an

o you who believe! obey allah and the messenger and those vested with authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to allah and the messenger if you believe in allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (4:59)

ibn babawayh has narrated through his chain from jabir ibn abdillah al-ansari that he said: "when allah, the mighty, the great, sent to his prophet, muhammad (s.a.w.a.), the verse, o you who believe! obey allah and the messenger and those vested with authority from among you, i said, 'o messenger of allah! we know allah and his messenger, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience allah has conjoined to your obedience? (the prophet) said: 'they are my caliphs, o jabir! and the imams of the muslims after me. the first of them is 'ali son of abutalib, then al-hasan, then al-husayn, then 'ali son of al-husayn, then muhammad son of 'ali who is mentioned as al-baqir in the torah; you will surely meet him, o jabir! when you see him convey my salam (greetings) to him. then as-sadiq ja'far son of muhammad; then musa son of ja'far; then 'ali son of musa; then muhammad son of 'ali; then 'ali son of muhammad; then al-hasan son of 'ali; then muhammad (whose name and patronym will be the same as mine) son of al-hasan, the proof of allah on his earth and baqiyyatullah (= the one kept safe by allah) among his servants; he is the one by whose hands allah, sublime is his remembrance, will conquer the whole world from the east to the west; he it is who will remain hidden from his followers and friends for a such a long period that no one will remain firm on the belief of his imamah except he whose heart has been tested by allah for faith.' jabir says: "i said: 'o messenger of allah! will his followers get any benefit from him during his occultation?' (the prophet, s.a.w.a.) said: 'certainly, by him who has sent me with prophethood! they will be guided by his light and benefit from his wilayah (= love, mastership) during his occultation as people benefit from the sun when it is hidden in cloud. o jabir! this is part of the hidden secrets of allah. so keep it hidden except from the people who deserve to know.' " (tafsir al-burhan)

the author says: an-nu'mani has narrated through his chain from sulaym ibn qays al-hilali from 'ali (a.s.) a tradition of the same meaning as above. also 'ali ibn ibrahim has narrated it through his chain from sulaym from 'ali (a.s.). there are other traditions narrated through shi'i and sunni chains, describing the imamah of the above imams together with their names; which may be seen in yanabi'u 'l-mawaddah, and al-bahrani's ghayatu 'l-maram and other books.

jabir al-ju'fi has said: "i asked abu ja'far (a.s.) about the verse, obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you. he said: 'the imams.' " (at-tafsir al-ayyashi)

the author says: al-ayyashi has narrated in his tafsir another similar tradition through 'umar ibn sa'id from abu 'l-hasan (a.s.), in which the following reply is given: " 'ali ibn abi talib and the imams after him."

ibn shahrashub narrates: " al-hasan ibn salih asked as-sadiq (a.s.) about it and the imam replied: 'the imams from ahlu 'l-bayt of the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.).' "

the author says: a similar tradition has been narrated by as-saduq through abu basir from al-baqir (a.s.) in which it is said: "the imams from the children of 'ali and fatimah until the hour (of resurrection) comes."

abu masruq has narrated a tradition from abu 'abdillah (a.s.); he says: "i told him: 'we have a discussion with the theologians and we argue against them with the words of allah, the mighty, the great, obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you; but they say: "it was revealed about the believers." and we argue against them with the words of allah, the mighty, the great, say: i do not ask of you any recompense for it except the love for near relatives; and they say "it was revealed about the near relatives of the believers." thus i did not leave anything like this which came to my mind but i mentioned it (to him).' thereupon he said to me: 'in that case, call them to al-mubahalah (= imprecation).' i said: 'and how should i do it?' he said: 'keep yourself good and happy for three days; keep fast; take bath; and go forth you and he to the mountains; then entwine your right hand's fingers in his fingers; then show justice to him and begin with yourself and say: "o allah, the lord of the seven heavens and the lord of the seven earths, the knower of the unseen and the seen, the beneficent, the merciful! if abu masruq has rejected truth and claimed wrong, then send on him reckoning from the heaven and a painful chastisement." then turn the same imprecation on him and say: "and if he (your adversary) has rejected truth and claimed wrong, then send on him reckoning from the heaven and a painful chastisement." ' "then (the imam, a.s.) said to me: 'thus it will not be long that you will see it (chastisement) in him.' but, by allah, i did not find anyone who would answer to this call." (al-kafi)

'abdullah ibn 'ajlan has narrated from abu ja'far (a.s.) that he said abou this verse of obedience: "it is about 'ali and the imams; allah has put them in places of prophets except that they do not make anything lawful or unlawful." (at-tafsir, al-'ayyashi)

the author says: the exception in this tradition confirms what was written in the commentary that according to this verse legislating a law was reserved for allah and his messenger.

burayd ibn mu'awiyah has narrated that abu ja'far (a.s.) recited: "obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you; then if you fear a dispute about anything, refer it back to allah and the messenger and those vested with authority from among you." then he said: "how can it be that he orders their obedience and then allows disputing with them? he (allah) has said it to the rebellious ones who were told, obey allah and obey the messenger." (al-kafi)

the author says: all that this tradition shows is that the imam (a.s.) was explaining the verse and elaborating on it; as we have described in the commentary. it does not mean that the imam (a.s.) was giving a separate version of the verse, as might be misunderstood by the word, 'recited'. a proof of what we have said may be found in the fact that different wordings have been used in other traditions [giving the same meaning, and even in the same tradition recorded in another book]. for example:

hariz has narrated from abu 'abdillah (a.s.) that he said: "it was revealed, then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to allah and to the messenger and to those vested with authority from you." (at-tafsir, al-qummi). also al-'ayyashi has narrated from burayd ibn mu'awiyah from abu ja'far (a.s.) (and it is the same tradition which has been quoted above from al-kafi , and this narration says, inter alia: "then (allah) said to the people, 'o you who believe!', and he has gathered [in this address] all the believers upto the day of resurrection; obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you. he has meant us particularly. then if you fear a dispute about anything, refer it back to allah and the messenger and those vested with authority from among you. it was revealed in this way. and how would he order them to obey those vested with authority and then allow them to quarrel with them? it was said to those who were ordered [to obey and] who were told: obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you." (at-tafsir,al-'ayyashi)

abu basir has narrated from abu ja'far (a.s.) that he said: "it (i.e., the verse of obedience) was revealed about 'ali ibn abi talib (a.s.)." "i said to him: 'people say to us, "what was to prevent him from naming 'all and his ahlu 'i-bayt in his book?"' abu ja'far (a.s.) said: 'tell them, "verily allah revealed (the order of) prayer to ms messenger; but he did not name three (rakah) or four, until it was the messenger of allah who explained it; and he revealed (the order of) hajj and did not reveal, 'circumambulate seven times', until the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) explained it. [likewise] allah revealed: 'obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you'; and it was revealed about 'ali and al-hasan and al-husayn (peace be on them); and he (the messenger of allah, s.a.w.a.) said about 'ali: 'whoever's master am 1, 'ali is his master.' also the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) said: 'i admonish you concerning the book of allah and my ahlu 'i-bayt; verily i have asked allah not to let them be separated from each other until he brings them to the hawd (reservoir [of al-kawthar] ), and he has granted it to me.' and he said: 'do not teach them because they are more knowledgeable than you; verily they shall never take you away from the gate of guidance and shall never let you enter the gate of misguidance.' if the messenger of allah had remained silent and not identified the people (of his ahlu 'l-bayt), surely the progeny of 'abbas, and the progeny of 'aqil and someone else's progeny would have claimed (to be among them); but allah revealed in his book: allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, 0 people of the house! and to purify you a (thorough) purification [33:331 ; and 'ali and al-hasan and al-husayn and fatimah (peace be on them) were the interpretation of this verse; so the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) took the hands of 'ali and fatimah and al-hasan and al-husayn (blessings from allah be upon them) and entered them under the mantle in the house of umm salamah and said: 'o allah! every prophet had had his precious things and his people; and these are my precious things and my people' umm salamah said: 'am i not from your people?' he said: 'verily you are (preceding) to good but these are my precious things and people of my (house).' . . . . . . .(at-tafsir, al-'ayyashi)

the author says: al-kulayni has narrated in al-kafi-, through his chain of narrators from abu basir from the same lmam (a.s.) a similar tradition with minor differences in wordings.

ibn shahrashub has quoted from at-tafsir of mujahid that this verse [of obedience] was revealed about the leader of the faithful ['ali, a.s.] when the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) left him in medina as his deputy. (ali) said: "o messenger of allah! are you leaving me to look after the women and the children?" he [the messenger of allah] said: "o leader of the faithful! are you not pleased that you should have the same position with me as harun had with musa, when (musa) said to him: 'take my place among my people, and act well'? then allah said: 'and those vested with authority from among you'." (the lmam then) said: "'ali ibn abi talib, allah appointed him as the master of the ummah's affairs after muhammad and when the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) made him take his place at medina. thus allah ordered the servants to obey him ('ali) and not to go against him."(tafsir al-burhan ).

mujahid has also narrated from lbanah al-falaki that it was revealed when abu buraydah complained against 'ali (a.s.) (ibid.)

a tradition has been quoted in abaqatu 'l-anwar from yanibi'u 'i-mawaddah of ash-shaykh sulayman ibn lbrahim al-balkhi who quotes from al-manaqib, from sulaym ibn qays al-hilali from 'ali (a.s.) which, inter alia, says: ['ali, a.s.] said, "the least by which a servant goes astray is that he does not know the proof of allah, the blessed, the sublime, and his witness over his servants, whose obedience allah has ordered and whose love and obedience made obligatory." sulaym says, "i said, 'o leader of the faithful! describe them to me.' he said, '(they are) those whom allah has joined with himself and his messenger, and said: 0 you who believe! obey allah and obey the messenger and those vested with authority from among you.' i said to him, 'may allah make me your ransom! explain (it) to me.' he said, 'those (about whom) the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) had said in several places and his last sermon on the day when allah, the mighty, the great, took him to himself: "surely i am leaving among you two things, you shall never go astray after me if you hold fast to them: the book of allah, the mighty, the great, and my progeny who are my ahlu 'l-bayt; because [allah,] the kind, the knower, has promised me that they shall never be separated (from each other) until they come to me at the reservoir - like these two (saying this ' the prophet joined his index fingers together) and i do not say 'like these two' (saying which he joined his index and middle fingers together); so hold fast to them both and don't go ahead of them, otherwise you would go astray." ' "

the author says: traditions narrated from the lmams of ahlu 'i-bayt, giving similar meanings as above are very numerous. what we have presented here gives examples of all types of meanings described in traditions. anyone wanting more details should consult collections of ahadith..

as for ancient exegetes, they are divided about the meaning of the phrase, ulu 'l-amr. some say, it means the rightly guided caliphs; others say, commanders of expeditions; a third group says, the scholars. ad-dahhak has reportedly said that it refers to the companions of the prophet (s.a.w.a.); but it boils down to the third interpretation, because reportedly he has said: "they are companions of the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.) as they were the callers (to islam) and narrators of traditions." obviously, this reasoning is based on their knowledge, and this interpretation would ultimately mean the scholars.

it should be noted that many things and various stories have been reported concerning the reason of revelation of this verse; but if one ponders on them one would be in no doubt that all of them are mere attempts by the narrators to apply the verse on one or the other view or situation. we therefore have not quoted any of them as it was of no value. you may look into ad-durru 'l-manthur and at-tafsir of at-tabari and other books like them for verification of this observation.

al-barqi has narrated through his chain from abu 'i-jarud that abu ja' far (a.s.) said about the verse, but no! by your lord! they do not believe until they. . . submit with total submission: "submission is pleasure and satisfaction with his decree." (al-mahasin)

'abdullah al-kalili has said that abu 'abdillah (a.s.) said: "if a people worshipped allah alone who has no partner, and established prayer, and gave zakat, and performed hajj of the house, and fasted in the month of ramadan, and then said about a thing done by allah or by his messenger (s.a.w.a.), 'why did he do this? 'or, 'if he had done it in another way [it would have been better] ' or felt [annoyance] in their hearts, they would become polytheists because of it." then he recited this verse, but no! by your lord! they do not believe until they make you a judge ofthat which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what you have decided and submit with total submission. then abu 'abdillah (a.s.) said: "it is incumbent upon you to submit." (al-kafi)

abdullah ibn yahya al-kalili has narrated that he heard abu 'abdillah (a.s.) saying: "by allah, if a people worshipped allah alone who has no partner, and established prayer, and gave zakat,and performed hajj of the house, and fasted in the month of ramadan, and then said about a thing done of the messenger of allah (s.a.w.a.), "why did he do this or that? or felt [annoyance in their hearts, they would become polytheists because of it." then he recited, but no! by your lord! they do not believe until they make you a judge of that which has become a matter of disagreement among them, and then do not find any straitness in their hearts as to what - muhammad and the progeny of muhammad - have decided and submit with total submission. (at-tafsir,al-'ayyashi).

the author says: there are other traditions similar to these two. the meaning given by the lmam (a.s.) extends the theme of the verse on two counts: first, that the verse covers all decisions and decrees, be they legislative or creative; second, it makes no difference whether the decision or decree was issued by allah or by his messenger.

it should be mentioned here that there are other traditions which apply the verse, but no! by your lord! they . . . submit with total submission, to the wilayah of 'ali (a.s.) or the wilayah of the lmams of ahlu 'i-bayt (a.s.); they provide examples of applying a verse to one or the other of its prominent models. certainly the verse is applicable to allah, his messenger and the lmams of ahlu 'l-bayt, and it continues in them.

ash-shaykh has narrated through his chain from 'ali (a.s.) that he said: "a man from the helpers (ansar) came to the prophet (s.a.w.a.) and said: 'o messenger of allah! i cannot bear separation from you; so much so that if i enter my home and remember you, i leave my property and come (here) for looking at you, in your love. then i remembered that when the day of resurrection would come, you would be made to enter the garden and raised to the highest level of 'illiyyin (highest place). then how could i see you? o messenger of allah!' then the verse was revealed: and whoever obeys allah and the messenger, these are with those upon whom allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets, and the truthful, and the witnesses, and the good ones; and excellent are these as companion! thereupon the prophet (s.a.w.a.) sent for the man and recited it to him and gave him the good news." (al-amali, ash-shaykh)

the author says: this theme is also narrated through sunni chains in ad-durru 'l-manthur quoting from at-tabarani, ibn marduwayh, abu nu'aym (in hilyatu 'l-awliya) and ad-diya'al-maqdisf (in mifatu 'l-jannah, saying that this tradition was 'good'), all narrating from ',k'ishah; also quoting from at-tabarani and ibn marduwayh both through ash-sha'bi from ibnabbas; and through sa'id ibn mansfir and ibnu 'i-mundhir from ash-sha'bi; and through ibn jarir from sa'id ibn jubayr.

ibn shahrashub has narrated from anas ibn malik from someone he had named from abu salih from ibn 'abbas that he said about this verse: "and whoever obeys allah and the messenger,these are with those upon whom allah has bestowed favors from amongthe prophets - i.e., muhammad (s.a.w.a.) - and the truthful - i.e., 'ali, and he was the first to verify - and the witnesses i.e., 'all, ja'far, hamzah, al-hasan and al-husayn, peace be on them."* (tafsir ‘al-burhan)

the author says: there are other traditions giving the same meaning. al-baqir (a.s.) said: "help us with piety, because whoever met allah with piety, would get happiness near allah, as allah, the mighty, the great, says: and whoever obeys allah and the messenger . . . " after reciting the verse, he said: "so from us is the prophet, and from us is the truthful, and from us are the witnesses and the good ones." (al-kafi)

as-sadiq (a.s.) has said: "the believers are of two kinds: (one is) a believer who fulfils the conditions allah had imposed on him; he will be with the prophets, and the truthful, and the witnesses, and the good ones,- and excellent are these as companions! and he is among those who will intercede and will not need intercession (by others); and he is among those who are not inflicted with terror of this world, nor of the hereafter. (another is) a believer who has made mistakes. he is like a green stalk, which inclines to whichever direction the wind pushes it and then returns to its position. he is among those who are inflicted with terrors of this world and that of the hereafter, and he would be interceded for; and he is on good." (ibid.)

the author says: as-sihih says: "al-khamah is a green soft plant." the imam (a.s.) in this hadith points to what was described in the commentary of the verse, the path of those upon whom thou hast bestowed favors (1:7), that 'favor' means al-wilayah (love, mastership, friendship). this explanation thus corresponds with the verses, now surely the friends of allah, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. those who believed and were pious (10:62-63). thereof mishaps cannot reach the friends of allah who rely on none other than allah

Was salams

sallam bro/sis
Only 1 sect will enter Islam,that Islam
who cares what people did,shia are so caught up in the ugly dark history,which has became part of their religon.Let the history go and follow the quran which is perfect and the ways of mohammad (pbuh)his sunnah.
All these blind muslim lost and dont know what sect your are and so on wake up!
Islam is the only religon.
When you pray to ALLAH you worshipp him only.
When you read the Holy Quran who are you reading it for,ALLAH.
When you preform hajj,who do you preform hajj ALLAH
when you pay Zakat,why do pay zakat for,for the sake of pleaseing ALLAH.
So where does thos bunch of crap of cursing this person and that person,and this person did this and that person did that,can you see this poltical crap does not involve islam,it only involves people that are not happy with their religon,so they pick out anything to destory this perfect reliogn with the help of shaytan.
When did the prophet(pbuh)have any desputes with any of them men the "SHIA" claim to be evil and so called bad.(other than yazid).
Worshipp ALLAH not mohammad(pbuh)not the calipha and ahalbayt or the wives of the prophet(pbuh)not the Perfect Immams ONLY ALLAH.
Muslim wake up,your a muslim,pray and eat and love sunnis and shia and any one that calls himself muslim and do hate and curse,that will get you no where,as it has got alot of poeple no where.
The quran and mohammad(pbuh) and that is islam.
ALLAH IS ONE AND MOHAMMAD(PBUH)IS THE SINLESS,PERFECT BEST CHARACHTER AND NO ONE COMES CLOSE TO HIM IS MESSANGER OF ALLAH

boys and girls let ALLAH to the judging it does not befit "muslims" to judge people or sign people in hell or hevan that is KAFFIR.
WE are muslims,the enemy which the quran speaks of and only enemy is SHAYTAN,so LETS not be fooled by the Shaytan like others have been fooled before(people that divide the Ummah on things they have no true knowlegde of and make fabricated stories and lies and deciption and mischief)lets knot be one of those INSHALLAH

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

i wish there was more people like u mr AmerIslam :) ... may allah bless u bro and bring more of u on this planet.
u are very right by saying shaytan is only one to stand laughing at us dividing our ummah.. allah warned us of shaytan and still people fall for his michievous act......

i say good night and repeat after me :o) "rabbana la tozigh quloobana ba3da ith hadaytana.... wa hab lana min ladunka rahmatan, innaka anta al wahhab" (surt AL-IMRAN 3:8 )
may allah bless and look after our hearts after he has shown us light and guidance AMEEN

Children...children…please be quite!!

Let us say for the sake of argument that Shias don’t know about Islam and Sunnis are trying to teach them.
Ok, we all agree that following Quran and Sunnah is the way to attain Islam.

So we start first with Qauran:

Shia: What is Quran?
Sunni: Quran is the words of Allah
Shia: Agree that Quran is the words of Allah (swt) but where we find it?
Sunni: you can find it in any book store.
Shia: is it the same Quran which Allah (swt) has sent on Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
Sunni: yes
Shia: but how come it ended up in the book store?
Sunni: Well, It’s a copy of the Quran.
Shia: oh! Copy, so where is the Quran then?
Sunni: what kind a question is it? I told you this is the Quran.
Shai: but you just said this is a copy.
Sunni: you are dumb… told you this is the Quran and just follow it.
Shai: Ok sirs…..please, don’t get mad on me…I am trying to learn.

Shia goes to the book store, get a copy of Quran. Stand behind it in intention to follow Quran but Quran does not move.
He tells book store owner that he wants a Quran which moves so he can follow Quran. Book store owner was a wise guy…he tells Shia that following Quran means you read it understand it and do as it says in it. Shia brings Quran to Sunni.

Shai: I got it sir!
Sunni: good, now start reading it.
Shia: Sir! What Quran means?
Sunni: it means “already red”
Shia: but sir, book store owner said it is brand new, and you say someone “already red” it.
Sunni: youuuuu…don’t get me mad…
Shai: sorry sir I though you knew all the answers.
Sunni: yes I know but you ask too many questions… comes on my nerves!
Shai; sir I am trying to learn…sorry
Sunni: ok read first from first page.
Shai: B’ismillah…..
Sunni: Stop there…you did not say “Aauzo billahe minushaitanner rajeem”
Shia: It’s not here sir.
Sunni: ooo youuuu… I know it is not there but you have to say it…
Shai: ok sir, but what does it mean?
Sunni: it means “keep us away from Shaitan rajeem”
Shia: who is Shaitan? Sir
Sunni: not me for sure…LOL…Shaitan was an angel.
Shia: Who are angels?
Sunni: angels are creature of Allah (swt); they serve Allah (swt).
Shia: oh! If Shaitan was an angel, why should we stay away from him?
Sunni: he was a bad angel.
Shia: why was he bad sir? Angels are always good.
Sunni: he did not obey Allah’s order.
Shai: so if an angel does not obey Allah’s orders, should we stay away from him?
Sunni: yes
Shia: does the same rule apply to humans too?
Sunni: oh!! You ask too many questions… just say as I tell you.
Shai: ok….sir… as you say…but it was important.
Sunni: not important to me…
Shia: reads… “Ahdenas sirattal muataqeem”… what does it mean?
Sunni: it means “show us the right path”.
Shai: what is the right path? Sir!
Sunni: right path is Islam
Shai: Sir! Are not we on right path?
Sunni: yes we are on right path.
Shai: so why say show us the right path then?
Sunni: because it says there…
Shia: what’s “ahdina” means? Sir!
Sunni: it means “keep us”.
Shai: so why you say “show us”.
Sunni: oohhh….youuuuu…. I wish I hear the school bell soon so I can go home and stay away from your questions for a day.

Ringggggggg (school bell) time to go home…back tomorrow!!

Salam!! AmirIslam,
Your Quote:
"Islam is the only religon.
When you pray to ALLAH you worshipp him only.
When you read the Holy Quran who are you reading it for,ALLAH.
When you preform hajj,who do you preform hajj ALLAH
when you pay Zakat,why do pay zakat for,for the sake of pleaseing ALLAH."

Islam is the only religion:
Why worship Allah (swt)? because He (swt) created humans for His (swt) worship. He don't need our prayers, angels are enough for his prayers. Prayes are for human's benifit, good for humans. Worship Allah (swt) means do as He (swt) wants you to do.

When you read Quran, Allah (swt) does not get any benefit from your reading Quran. He (swt) sent Quran for the guidance of humans, So you get benefit and guidance not Allah(swt).

When you perform Hajj you obey Allah's (swt) commands. He (swt) wants you to see "shairilllah", the signs of Allah (swt), be it Holy Kaaba or "Hajer-e-Aswad". Knowing these signs are good for human since they are Allah's(swt) "hujjat".

When you pay zakat you obey Allah's (swt) command. He (swt) wants you to help poor in Muslim Ummah. It will be good for muslims if they share their wealth.... strong Ummah is good for Islam.

Allah (swt) loves all and He(swt) wants all to go to Jannat. So we as humans do what ever He (swt) wants us to do so we can get into Jannat. Another benefit for humans. But He (swt) had said that no other religion than "Islam" will be accepted. What is that "Islam"?

sallam bro/sis
Tod,you should become a movie writter like steven speilberg lol ,this is the first thing that you have written that i actually liked,good one dude.
Quran means to recite.
Islam means the 5 pillars,i hope you know them TOD,not the ones with the extras or the upgraded version,ONLY 5 PILLARS of islam.
We should atleast agree on these(INSHALLAH)
Once Again TOD that was a very good script good job champ!

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

i wish i had a cricket bat to wack Tod with it.... lol. what is he on about... not once i have managed to understand what point he is supposed to make.

Now he says if we recite its coz it benefits us and when i say am a sunni and yes i recite he considers me a kafir?

if nobody wacks him i know i will :=)

hello

You sunni people and shis are having a debate and when narations that have ocurred as a fact and have been stated by your leaders as a chalenge to your arguments you cant not counteract it. if you could you would chaalenge it, but it shows that the ones who want to batter with bats are the ones who are battering themselves....

Have you nothing to say to pervious posts as you are now battering yourselves. you are getting defeated as a fact and then move on to other subjects.

You make me laugh.

bob what r u on about?

some facts have been fabricated and that is why we argue about certain points n issues.

islamic empire was spreading wide n fast back in history and countries were forced to have different leaders and from then on fabrications of the real words of the prophet became confusing.

But no biggy sunni's n shia's r still brothers and the educated ones know they are :o)

Can somebody tell me who the hell is michael william (the maker of this site) ??? lol

why do we have a kafir making such site... mr michael r u trying to learn or is u really a spy lol.. hmmmmm interesting indeed

Ty Bob!! appreciate what you have written. You are right on the money...they are avoiding.

hahahahahaha....Muslim! you are so funny...really funny... and you don't even have a bat.... hahahahahaha
nah..I don't play cricket...how about baseball?..I got a baseball bat..always keep it between my legs...LOL
but I rather do workout...just came back pressing 325lbs.... it's fun..want to try?

Salaam to all brothers in Islam

There is a well known hadis accepted by both schools,shia and sunni which is the following: The Prophet said a multiple of times I AM THE CITY OF KNOWLEDGE,AND ALI IS ITS GATE( this hadis is found in a well known sunni books MUSTADRAK AL HAKIM ,VOL .3,P.127 AND TARIKH IBN KATHIR,VOL.7,P 358}
What does it mean? It means that if you want to know the Prophet,want to know the knowledge of Quran and religion,you have to knock the door of Ali.If someone wants to enter the city of knowledge(islam),Ali is the gate.If someone enters the city using another way than the gate,he is illegal in the city, he entered the city as a thief,as a clandestine.Sunni chose the door of Abu Bakr,they are illegal Muslim.If they could choose Ali first,and then.... the 3 others,we could understand.But the funniest thing is,after entering the city by climbing the wall or whatever,they come back at the door.Is not that interesting???

Oh sunni brothers!! Read your own books,and discover the truth,that's only one example.

Oh Sunni brothers!! Get out the city and come back by the door,the visa will be ready for you,and you will be welcome.

hahahaha...Muslim...how can you fabricate a fact...if you fabricat a fact, it does not remain a fact.. it becomes your uncle Abu Hurayra....LOL

Most Suunis don't ubderstand Quran...so how could they follow it? and they take Sunnah of Prophet (pbuh) from Abu Hurayra, who's fake Hadiths are world famous and best seller. (5730 Hadiths from Abu Hurayra in two years...Abu Bakar the companion of Prpohet (pbuh) had only 134 Hadiths in 23 years) so how sure are they that they are following right sunnah of Prophet (pbuh)?
Wake up guys...the proper meaning of the verses of Quran and the proper Sunnah of Prophet (pbuh) would be found from Alh al Bait in Prpohet's household who lived with the Prophet (pbuh) day and night.

cheers

SALLAM BRO/SIS

To brother azad and tod.
stop putting Immam Ali under the spot light,if the very small minority belives that Immam Ali was meant to be calipha,then why the hell did he uprise and kill the muslim that so called stole the calipha,and dont say that Immam Ali was paitent that is a real pathetic excuse,why wasnt immam hussein paitent??????????.Shia put down immam ALI very bad,in which way
1.IMAMM ALI WAS GREAT AND FOLLOWED EVERY ORDER THE PROPHET PBUH GAVE HIM,IF AND THATS A BIG IF,TOLD HIM THAT HE WAS THE FIRST CALIPHA AFTER THE DEMISE OF THE PROPHET(PBUH),THAT MEANS HE BROKE THE OF THE PROPHET(PBUH)
2.Immam Ali had no fear only of ALLAH and was a true muslim and one of the most feard man by man,dont you think your concealed hearts that Immam Ali truely belived that if hes was the first calipha that he would die trying????????
3.KNOWLEDGE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM AND BEIGN A MUSLIM
4.REMEMBER WHO KILLED IMMAM ALI r.a(his own tribe the traitors)
5.Abu bakr gates are accepted by me,because the prophet(pbuh)accepted him and said he is the best man after me.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 6:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Allah's Apostle addressed the people saying, "Allah has given option to a slave to choose this world or what is with Him. The slave has chosen what is with Allah." Abu Bakr wept, and we were astonished at his weeping caused by what the Prophet mentioned as to a Slave ( of Allah) who had been offered a choice, (we learned later on) that Allah's Apostle himself was the person who was given the choice, and that Abu Bakr knew best of all of us. Allah's Apostle added, "The person who has favored me most of all both with his company and wealth, is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a Khalil other than my Lord, I would have taken Abu Bakr as such, but (what relates us) is the Islamic brotherhood and friendliness. All the gates of the Mosque should be closed except the gate of Abu Bakr."
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 8:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

The Prophet said, "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion (in Islam)."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11:
Narrated Jubair bin Mutim:

A woman came to the Prophet who ordered her to return to him again. She said, "What if I came and did not find you?" as if she wanted to say, "If I found you dead?" The Prophet said, "If you should not find me, go to Abu Bakr."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 14:
Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As:

The Prophet deputed me to read the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He said, " 'Aisha." I asked, "Among the men?" He said, "Her father." I said, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men.
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20:
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya:

I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 22:
Narrated Abu Said:

The Prophet said, "Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them."

How can any muslim deny these words of the prophet(pbuh).
Havent shia ever wonerded why out of 100% shia is 15% and the rest is sunnah waljuma

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

any person that does not accept this true hadith and true words surely you are not from the nation of mohammad (pbuh)

azad Fazal...???? ur pathetic if u read my previous articles i have mentioned that ALi himself followed the 3 caliphs before him.. so dont call us sunni's illegal u dirty refugee lol

it was loyal extreme baduins like urself who took ali issue way too far and changed history. sunnis accept ALi and love him more than u shia. we follow his steps and his behaviour. he was first to decline cilapha during mu"awiya to not seperate muslims. he led many wars with Omar 10 years of cilapha that conquered iraq egypt north africa turkey etc...... and u shia reject Omar who Ali fought with for allah and islam?

Why arent there hadiths by Ali denouncing the 3 others?...why is it only the people after him who made false claims? Ali is the gate and the gate we followed when he took leadership as a 4th calipha. Find me any battle and war that ALi didnt fight with when the 3 sunni caliphs took charge? he was always there. he was a friend with all 3 caliphs b4 him....You guys refuse to belive coz ur minds r closed.
You talk as if sunni do not believe in ALi. Find me any flipping hadeeths that ALi claims he is the first and the ones b4 him mean nothing

U cant U only find what the haters wrote about us after his death.

lol @ Tod and his baseball bat between his legs hehe. Tod u idiot...Abu Bakr lived only few months after mohammad(SAW) death so how u expect him to have many hadiths? and b4 that why ask abu bakr for a hadith when the prophet was already alive? u write it directly from mohammad(SAW)?

wallah i still wana wack u with my cricket bat lol
or even better just smash a tennis racket across ur head hehe!!

AmerIslam you are full of it...
You just follow what you claim to be authentic Hadiths and all above hadiths you have mentioned.
I can tell you the way to jannat but I can't garantee that Ashab-e-Kahaf's dog let you go much further. It has been said that this dog will be the only dog that will go to jannat with the people of the cave.
Now go bite that dog...LOL

AAhhhh AmerIslam..... i love u bro :) it is exactly what i have been trying to put across to those guys ......
Ali would have never stayed silent and let others take leadership in a wrong way. He was one of the closest people to mohammad(SAW) he is the gate as the shia brother states........ but shia people someone plz tell me why would Ali let Evil take over the Cilapha. Ali fights for islammmm. A calipha is a leader of all muslims and if Ali thought for once abu bakr is taking his position in a decieving or selfish act he would of beheaded him.
Tod open up ur mind sweetheart lol? read with an open mind thats all am saying. u dirty immigrant lol

Muslim!! you really know how to show your real colours...when you can't answer the hard arguments we make...you start cursing jut like Umar used to do... you must be following his foot steps...not Imam Ali (as).

Now listen to this one...how Umar accepted Islam:
Umar's sister and his brother in law became muslim...so he got so mad athat he went to their house and beat the crap out of both his sister and his brother in law. He then get tired and his sister was bedly bleeding and so his brothet in law. Then he decided that he is going to kill the Prophet (pbuh) to end the message of Islam. He left to find the Prophet (pbuh) and found him sitting alone as he could see him from the door...he took out his sword in anger and with the intention of killing the Prophet (pbuh) but soon he enterd the room his world became dark...really dark... he noticed that Ali ibne Abitalib was sitting just behind the door. Unar started pissing in his pants and did not know what to do. He was looking at a man who never got defeted by anyone...and he knew that Ali's sword was very sharp and fast too. Sudenly he realised that if he attacked Prophet (pbuh) he would be inviting his own deth because the protector of Prophet was right there and he knew how brave was he and how many wars he has concored. So he quicky decided to chnage his action to save his ass and with trembling legs said to Prophet that he had come to accept Islam. What a lier... I wish Umar could have tried what he had come for and should have reached to his end there and then and we would not be here to argue about your beloved person.

btw...which war Ali (as) participated when Umar was the king? As far as history is concerend Imam Ali (as) stayed in Madina in his home for 25 years after Prpohet's (pbhu) passing away.

Another thing...who write hadiths?...just use logic... and comman sense if you have any...a person who know Prophet (pbuh) the best... right? and who will be better a person who spend 2 years with the Prpohet's or a person like Abu Bakr who spend 25 years along side Prophet (pbuh)? (as you claim about abu Bakr)
Also when we say Abu Bakr had 134 hadiths...it meant a person who wrote hadiths (like Abu Huraira) related to those 134 hadiths from Abu Bakr in naration of hadiths.

Got it penut brain?...LOL

Fazilat About Hazrat Imam Ali Ibn e Abi Talib a.s according to Hadith's of Prophet Hazrat Muhammad s.a.w .Open challenged & Proof to All the world .

Asalamoalaka ya Ameer ul Momineen Imam Ali Ibn Abitalib a.s.

1. In Ad-Durru 'L-Manthur, Under The Seventh Verse Of Surah Al-Bayyinah (90), Jalalu'd-Din As-Suyuti Narrates From Ibn `Asakir That Jabir Ibn `Abdillah Al-Ansari Said That He Was In The Presence Of The Prophet When 'Ali Also Came In To Him. The Prophet Said: "I Swear By He In Whose Hand Is My Life That This Man And His Followers (Shi'ah) Will Be Saved On The Day Of Resurrection." Al-Manawi Relates This In Two Traditions In Kunuzu 'L-Haqa'iq, And Al-Haythami In Majma'uz 'Zawa'id And Ibn Hajar In As-Sawa`Iqu 'L-Muhriqah Relates The Same Substantial Meaning In Different Forms.

2. Hazrat Muhammad S.A.W Says That ,"Seventy Thousand Of My Community Will Enter Heaven Without Any Reckoning And Punishment Against Them." Then He Turned To 'Ali, Peace Be On Him And Said: "They Are Your Shi'a And You Are Their Imam."

3. Umar Bin Khattab Says, “I Heard Abu Bakr Ibn Abi Guhafa Quoting The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) Thus, “Allah Has Created The Angels From The Light Of Hazrat Ali Ibne Abi Talib (A.S.)’S Face, They Are Constantly Praising And Glorifying Allah, The Reward Of Which Is Accounted In Hazrat Ali (A.S.) And His Progeny’s Name.” Reference: Me’ah Manaqebah, Pg. 148, Manaqebat No. 80.

4. Hazrat Abu Bakr Narrates That He Heard The Prophet (S) Say That: "No One Will Be Able To Cross The Sir At
(Path) Leading To Heaven On The Day Of Judgment Unless He Gets The Stamp Of Ali".

5. Shab’i Narrates : “Abu Bakr Was Sitting When He Saw Ali Ibn Abi Talib Coming. On Seeing Him, He Remarked, ‘Whoever Wants To See A Person Who Is Having The Highest Position In The Eyes Of The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), Who Is Having Maximum Proximity Towards The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), Whose Leadership Is The Best, And Who Is The Most Self-Sufficient, Should See The Approaching Person.” Reference: Manaaqeb-E-Khawaarazmi, Chap.14, Pg. 98 From Fazaee-Lul-Khamsah, Vol. 1, Pg. 343.

6. Six Days After The Demise Of The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), Hazrat Ali (A.S.) And Abu Bakr Went On His Grave. Ali (A.S.) Told Abu Bakr To Go Ahead. On This, Abu Bakr Said: “How Can I Walk Ahead Of A Person About Whom I Have Heard The Prophet (S.A.W.) Saying, ‘Ali Is As Near To Me As I Am To My Lord’. Reference: Riyaz-Un-Nazrah, Vol.2, P. 163;As-Sawaaeq 106;Fazaaelul Khamsa Vol.1, Pg. 344.

7. Umar Ibn Bushra Al-Khashami Narrates From Umar Ibn Khattab: “Hazrat Ali (A.S.) Has Maximum Knowledge Of What Was Revealed To The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.)”. Reference: Shawaahedut Tanzel, Vol. 1,Pg.30 Hadith No. 29; Bosytan-E-Marefat, 654-655

8. Umar Ibn Khattab Quotes The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.), “None Equaled The Virtues Of Hazrat Ali (A.S.). It Guides Those Who Seek It And Protects Them From Destruction. Reference: Riyazun Nazrah Vol.2, Pg.214; Zakhareul Uqba, Pg.16).

9. Umar Ibn Khattab Relates That ‘Hazrat Ali (A.S.) Is The Master Of All Those Whose Master Is The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.). Reference: Riyazun Nazra, Vol. 2, Pg. 170.

10. Umar Ibn Khattabsaid : Hazrat Ali (A.S.) Possessed Three Rare Virtues. If I Had Even One Of Them, It Would Have Been Better Then Red-Camels. I.) Marriage To Hazrat Fatima (S.A.) Ii.) Opening Of The Door (Of My House) In The Mosque. Iii.) Being The Standard-Bearer On The Day Of Khaiber. Reference: Mustadrak-Us-Saheehain, Vol.2, Pg.135.

11. Anas Narrates From Ayesha That: I Heard The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) Saying, ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib Is The Best Of Humans. Whoever Denies Him, He Has Indeed Disbelieved.” Somebody Asked “So Why Did You Fight Against Him ?” She Replied, “That Was My Personal Problem And I Was Instigated By Talha And Zubair”. Reference: Me’ah Manqabeah, Pg. 138 Pg. 70.

12. Ayesha Said : “Hazrat Ali (A.S.) Is The Most Learned Among The Companions Of Holy Prophet (S.A.W.)”. Reference: Shawaahedut Tanzeel. Vol. 1, Pg. 35; Bostane Marefat, Pg. 658.

13. It Is Narrated By Umar Bin Kattab That , Ya-Ali Madad Is A Sunnat E Rasool

Hey buddy Muslim!!
your qoute:
"Tod open up ur mind sweetheart lol? read with an open mind thats all am saying. u dirty immigrant lol"

Who you calling dirty immigrant? If you calling Prophet (pbuh) then be Allah's your judge.
Prophet (pbuh) was the one who became "immigrant" when he migrated from Makka to Madina. So there is nothign wrong to be an immigrant. In fact it is the Sunnah of Prophet to become an immigrant....so we just fallow his sunnah. It was the kafirs (non immigrant like you) who were dirty and Prophet (pbuh) purified them by the light of Islam.
Don't accuse me of having no open mind...it is your mind which is closed shut.
I Learn from Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl al Bait, I just don't follow them blindly like most sunis do in relation to their Kalifahs.
So you see how open minded we are who tolerate a lot of abuse although we have ample power to defend oursleves. (325 Lbs is not easy to press...LOL)
So, here is my open mind...amazing is not it?

Dear Toddy..... whatever u quote about Ali we already agree on. u r not proving anything to me for i already know he is my leader and i follow him as my 4th caliph..not umayyad's!!
We r the followers of Ali but we refuse to seperate the people!
shia like u refuse to unite muslims and it came to a state where u call us kuffars!!

325lb of fat and lard? lol u big kirsh u
Fat people have nothing between their legs so dont kid urself lol

Hey Muslim...when I say "325 Lbs is not easy to press""...do you understand what does it mean?
It means I lift 325 Lbs in the jym at bench press. I don't weigh 325 Lbs, you dumb camel.
Want to see some muscles? LOL

so called Mualim!!
What I am proving, is that your so called Khalifa's themselves praising Ali (as). So he is much more superior than them not only here but hear after. Abu Bakar and you too have to get a stamp from Ali (as) at Si'rat to get to Jannat provided the dog of Ashab-e-Kahaf does not bite your leg and pull you towards the oposit side near the firework.

hahahahaha...looser

hello Toddy
we know he is lol wallah we do... Ali RA is highly respected by all... but so r the companions which u people reject
I respect everything i hear and read in shia'sm but i refuse to resent the companions and first 3 caliphs.
A hadeeth by mohammad saying " if u put my entire muslim ummah in one hand, and put abu bakr in the other hand..... Abu bakr would weigh more"

Basically abu bakr and ali were most favoured by our prophet.
a saying by Ali when asked arent u the strongest and most courageous of us all ALI REPLIES
" wallahi i am nothing compare to what abu bakr is.. when our prophet was being attacked by 10 quraysh men, spat and pushed at.... we all watched and were afraid to intervene, only abu bakr went to stop them, and the 10 men left mohammad(SAW) and attacked abu bakr until he was bruised and unconscious. This is a very known story it even involved Fatimah (RA) she was 10 years old i think and started to cry n shout for someone to help her father. abu bakr was the first to jump in action even tho he was skinny and weak.
Abu bakr was known as abu kaab.. his people called him that and abu bakr coz of his businesses in trading camels etc....... the prohpet named him AL SIDDIQ (the truthfull one). if u people reject the word al siddiq and call abu bakr a liar and manipulator of the truth then u r contradicting the word of mohammad(SAW). IF he called him the truthfull one who the hell r u people to say he is not? and he lied his way to the leadership.
man plz ur all full of lies lies and more lies.

Again i remind you simple ignorant creatures... umayyad family did not go to war with Ali for leadership.. they went to fight to seek justice over their uthman death. mu"awiya and Ali then tried to stop fighting over this and concentrate on whos turn it is to take leadership. but b4 any of this happened it ended with the killing of ALi ...by whooooooooooooo??????? his own people rejectors (kharjitis) who killed him.. so why the hell u blame us sunni's?

P.S am from England so i dont know what 325lbs is i just know it weighs a lot we use stones :)lol.. and even so u fat immigrant lol why do u think muscles mean a lot nowadays? one gun and i shoot ur balls into pieces u balless pig lol

yalla salamz

Hello Kafir named Muslim...
Don't you know that drinking alcohol is haram in Islam?... so when you start reading historty please avoid Vodka... you don't know if you are coming or going...it happens to peanut brain people like you...

You can twist history, Hadiths and Prophet's (pbuh) sayings...but Allah says in Quran that Prophet (pbuh) does not speak unless He (swt) sends wahi on the Prophet. Allah (swt) also says that He (swt) has desended the "Zikr" (Quran) and He (swt) has promised to protect it. Allah (swt) will protect the truth ...since Prophet (pbuh) does not speak until wahi comes. Your mentioned hadiths do not come close to any Ayat of quran so how we can accept it as true?... you are buch of liers like your kalifahs.
So here we go...you can fabricate as many hadiths as you want but The truth comes out anyways...thats why a lot of Sunnis are turning to the truth and becoming Shia. (I know three of them already)

You can make stories, change stories, remove Ali's (as) name and put Abu Bakr's name but it does not match...
Abu Bakr ran way from bettle of Uhud and did not obey Prophet (pbuh) while He (pbuh) said to him and others to guard and not to leave that mountain passage. (whoever after accepting Islam does not obey the Prophet (pbuh) turns into a KAFIR. They including Abu Bakr did leave the passage since they wanted to loot the war booty. Then your another famous personality "Kahlid Bin Walid" (who was kafir then) attacked Abu bakr's ass from behind and Abu Bakr ran so fast that no one could have broken that olympic record of speed until now.
If he was so obedient to the Prophet (pbuh) and was so brave to fight 10 people single handed then why he had to run like camel with no balls.
What came after was history and none can deny that.
Even Quran says:
"(Believers, remember) When you ran off precipitately and did not wait for any one, and the Messenger was calling you from your rear, (Surah Al-e-Imran, 3:153)

Allah reprimands in the following verse those persons who made the news about the Prophet's assassination an excuse for abandoning fight and were thinking of approaching Abu Sufyan through Abdullah bin Ubayy to guarantee their safety:

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means does harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful. (Surah Al-e-Imran, 3:144)

There were only three people left surrounding the Prpophet (pbuh) of Islam in the bettle who was injurd and those brave warriors were Ali (as), Hazrat Hamza (as) and one of his sahabi. Hzrat Hamza and Sahabi both were shaheed in this encounter and only Ali (as) left to defend Prophet (pbuh). Ali (as) was riding on his horse in circle around the Prophet (pbuh) to defend him from attacks. He fell three times during the fight with kafirs but he managed to kill all and brought the Prophet (pbuh) to safety.

(may be this is the ocassion that you twisted and were talking about that 10 people attacked Prophet and Abu bakr saved the Prophet. It was Ali (as) who saved Prophet not Abu Bakr)

Ibn Athir says: "The Prophet become the object of the attack of various units of the army of Quraysh from all sides. Ali attacked, in compliance with the Prophet's orders, every unit that made an attack upon him (the Prophet) and dispersed them or killed some of them, and this thing took place a number of times in Uhud. In the meantime the Archangel Jibreel came and praised the devotion of Ali before the Prophet and said: 'It is the height of sacrifice which this officer is displaying'. The Prophet confirmed the remark of Jibreel and said: 'I am from Ali and Ali is from me'. Then a voice was heard in the battlefield saying: La Fata Illa Ali, La Saifa Illa Zulfiqar [There is no brave man except Ali and there is no sward which renders service except Zulfiqar (which was in the hands of Ali)].

Eat your heart out!!

kharjitis were like sunnis and they plan to kill Ali (as) and your Muawiah. Muawiah as usual missed the morning prayer so he was not killed.

Typical sunni charector...just thinks about killing all the time for no reason... Americans are enough to kick you butt.
Come and get me if you can... you might go to heaven and get 7 hoories in reward but don't forget my pet dog of Ashab-e-Kahaf he will be ready to take revenge...save your balls.... hahahahahaha

Salaam AmerIslam!!
We don't put Imam Ali (as) under spot light...He is "the light".
He is the light of knowledge, light of bravery, light of honesty, light of defrentiating Muslim and Munafiq, light of Mount toor, light for all the prophets...and so on.

Imam Ali (as) was made Imam, Kahlifah, Maula, Wali by Allah (swt), it does not matter if majority accepts it or a small minority. The truth remain the same that Allah (swt) had made him Khalifah. (refer my post of "complete Khutba of Prophet (pbuh) at Ghadir")

Your quote "why the hell did he uprise and kill the muslim that so called stole the calipha,and dont say that Immam Ali was paitent that is a real pathetic excuse,why wasnt immam hussein paitent?"
I guess you mean to say that why he did not rise to get his position from kalifah?
Well you know that he was busy in funeral preparation of the Prophet (pbuh) while all the others left the funeral and went to "saqifah" to conspire and chose a so called kahlifah for themsleves. So in the funeral procession there were very few people, Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman were notebly absent.
I don't understand the logic...it's like your President dies and you leave his funeral and start voting for another President in the parliament? It does not happen unless you topple a President and kill him in a reballion. In out case it was our Prophet (pbuh) so every Muslim should have come to the funeral.

Imam Ali (as) burried the Prophet and he realised the situation that none was there. He realised that he was betrayed by muslims who had heard Prophet (pbuh) telling his appointment as a Klalipha by Allah (swt) although all of them including Uram in particular had done "biaht" on his hand. When he saw that very few of his loyal supporters were with him and he was not in a position to challange a great number of people and declare war and do the bloodshed.
Also Prophet (pbuh) had told Ali (as) that "ya Ali after my death you will encouter hard ship and you stay quite at that time and not use your sword".

In case of Imam Hussain with Yazid, it was not Imam Husian who wanted to fight but it was Yazid who wanted Imam Husain's "baiht" on his hand to legitemize his kind of Islam. In Yyazid's time 'alcohal" was used freely...gambling was common... nikah with sisters was done and so on... so Imam Husain stood up to defend real Islam and secrified himself so that comming umah like us stay on the right Islam.

Now my question to you...had you be there, would you have attended the funeral of the Prophet (pbuh) or you would have gone to Saqifah?

hey toddy :o)........

ok let me enlighten you of a few ayaat in quran that highlight abu bakr.... then u decide!!!

[AL TAWBA 9:40] allah says "If you will not aid him, Allah certainly aided him when those who disbelieved expelled him, he being the second of the two, when they were both in the cave, when he said to his companion: Grieve not, surely Allah is with us. So Allah sent down His tranquillity upon him and strengthened him with hosts which you did not see, and made lowest the word of those who disbelieved; and the word of Allah, that is the highest; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

allah mentions abu bakr in the cave story and the spider..as his companion!! his friend!! allah's word my brother in islam tod, he named abu bakr the friend and companion!! so who r u to resent him and call him names other than what allah has??

ALSO

Al-Lail. The following verses in the Sura "Al-Lail" refer to Abu Bakr: "Those who spend their wealth for increase in self-purification and have in their minds no favor from any one, for which a reward is expected in return, but only the desire to seek the countenance of their Lord, Most High and soon will they attain complete satisfaction." {92:18-21}. he says SOON THEY WILL ATTAIN SATISFACTION??????????
My simple immigrant friend Tod lol.... who at the time of mohammad (SAW) had money? nobody did but abu bakr.. we have millions of stories on how he used to buy slaves and servants with his wealth being the richest man in that time to save them from kafir punishment. so who do u think allah was refering to in that verse?

ALSO
Al-lmran. The commentators are agreed that the following verse of Sura "Al-lmran" refers to Abu Bakr and Umar: "And take counsel with them in the affair". (3:158)
ALSO
An-Nur. In Sura "An-Nur", the following verse refers to Abu Bakr: "And let not those of you who possess grace and abundance swear against giving to the near of kin and the poor and those who have migrated in the way of Allah, and they should pardon and turn away. Do you not like that God should forgive you?" {18:24}

AND dont forget before u start saying this all was said about ALi..then no my dear toddy immigrant friend lol...Ali at the start of prophecy was a young kid!! he was not part of giving and buying for the sake of islam coz a kid wouldnt have much right!!

Did u not hear about the prophet's dream..when he told his friends (mohammad SAW) " i had a dream that i was drinking laban (yogurt).. and that when i finished there was a few left and i handed my jar over to Omar who finished my drink off". The prophet has told us that dream of yogurt is very hard to have for that only means u r blessed by allah and heaven u shall enter for allah has made this dream come true only to few... SO tod have u ever drank yogurt in ur dream or even water? they r blessed dreams. mohammad dreams always true and happen. mohammadSAw talks highly of omar and that dream and that the fact omar drank from his cup showed how valuable omar was n became to him.. go find me one man on this planet today who can have a dream of him drinking yogurt?????? mohammad told us only allah will give u this dream and only meaning to it is heaven and goodness. ZZZZZZZZ i still love u tho toddy buddy

sallam bro/sis
i very upset to brother muslim and brother Tod on how you talk to each other,If Abu bakr r.a was here or Ali R.a i think uses guys will be in trouble.
please muslims brothers we are here to unit not fight like headless chickens.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 26:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

While I was standing amongst the people who were invoking Allah for Umar bin Al-Khattab who was lying (dead) on his bed, a man behind me rested his elbows on my shoulder and said, "(O 'Umar!) May Allah bestow His Mercy on you. I always hoped that Allah will keep you with your two companions, for I often heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar were (somewhere). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar did (something). I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar set out.' So I hoped that Allah will keep you with both of them." I turned back to see that the speaker was Ali bin Abi Talib.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 46:
Narrated Anas:

Allah's Apostle ascended the (mountain) of Uhud with Abu Bakr and 'Uthman and it shook. Allah's Apostle said, "Be calm, O Uhud!" I think he stroked it with his foot and added, "There is none on you but a Prophet, a Siddiq and two martyrs." (The two martyrs were Umar and Uthman) (See Hadith No. 24)

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 56:
Narrated Ubaida:

Ali said (to the people of 'Iraq), "Judge as you used to judge, for I hate differences (and I do my best ) till the people unite as one group, or I die as my companions have died." And narrated Sad that the Prophet said to 'Ali, "Will you not be pleased from this that you are to me like Aaron was to Moses?"

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 60:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Fatima sent somebody to Abu Bakr asking him to give her her inheritance from the Prophet from what Allah had given to His Apostle through Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting). She asked for the Sadaqa (i.e. wealth assigned for charitable purposes) of the Prophet at Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus (i.e., one-fifth) of the Khaibar booty. Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, 'We (Prophets), our property is not inherited, and whatever we leave is Sadaqa, but Muhammad's Family can eat from this property, i.e. Allah's property, but they have no right to take more than the food they need.' By Allah! I will not bring any change in dealing with the Sadaqa of the Prophet (and will keep them) as they used to be observed in his (i.e. the Prophet's) life-time, and I will dispose with it as Allah's Apostle used to do," Then 'Ali said, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and that Muhammad is His Apostle," and added, "O Abu Bakr! We acknowledge your superiority." Then he (i.e. 'Ali) mentioned their own relationship to Allah's Apostle and their right. Abu Bakr then spoke saying, "By Allah in Whose Hands my life is. I love to do good to the relatives of Allah's Apostle rather than to my own relatives" Abu Bark added: Look at Muhammad through his family (i.e. if you are no good to his family you are not good to him).

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 93:
Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:

I saw Abu Bakr carrying Al-Hasan and saying, "Let my father be sacrificed for you; you resemble the Prophet and not 'Ali," while 'Ali was laughing at this.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 114:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle said, "The superiority of 'Aisha over other women is like the superiority of Tharid to other meals."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 10:
Narrated Abu Musa:

Some people asked Allah's Apostle, "Whose Islam is the best? i.e. (Who is a very good Muslim)?" He replied, "One who avoids harming the Muslims with his tongue and hands."

brothers in islma,the past can never be rewritten,why create trouble and hardshipp when the past will never change,the Prophet(pbuh)hated people asking silly questions.
dont risrespect any muslim its islamic.
follow who you want,but dont curse people that fought and bleed and ate with the greatest man mohammad(pbuh).
The reason why Ali r.a was called gates to knowlegde is because he lived the longest after the prophet(pbuh) so he had the chance to practice the sunnah of mohammad(pbuh).
Q.1 how old was Ali r.a when mohammad became prophet(pbuh)
Q.2 How old was Ali r.a when mohammad (pbuh)
past away.

Once again brothers respect is a sign of imman.

Allah is our rubb
Islam is our deen
Quran is our kitab
mohammad is our messenger and the last prophet of ALLAH.

Tod i dont think immam Ali r.a is the key to paradise,plse be careful of what you quote, only Allah and his messenger are the keys to jannah.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

sallam

The Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): Definition, Status, and Rank

Answered by Shaykh Gibril Haddad

The companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): Definition, Status, and Rank

The Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): Definition, Status, and Rank

- Shaykh Gibril Haddad [from an article at: http://members.chello.se/onesr/n/shb_e.html]

Definition of the Sahaba

The most widespread definition of Sahabi is someone who saw the Prophet and believed in him as well as died a Muslim. Those that saw him but held off believing in him until after his passing are not considered Sahaba but Tabi`in. The inclusion of children below the age of reason in the first category apparently precludes from them the necessity of outward affirmation. Thus Ibn Qaani`, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and Ibn Hajar include Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr among the Sahaba respectively in Mu`jam al-Sahaba, al-Isti`ab and al-Isaba. Ibn Abi `Asim narrated in al-Aahaad wal-Mathaani, his compendium of the Companions, from Ibn al-Musayyab: "We only included him because of `Ali's saying: 'How do you order that one of the Companions of Muhammad be killed without conviction?' Meaning Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr."

By Divinely-ordained prescription (tawqif) the best human beings after Prophets are the Companions, in the following order:

• First, the Ten Promised Paradise;
these are: Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Uthman, Ali, al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awwam, Talha, `Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Awf, Abu -Ubayda ibn al-Jarrah, Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas, and Sa`id ibn Zayd ibn `Amr.
• Then the senior Companions among those who fought at Badr (all those who fought at Badr having been promised Paradise).
• Then those who gave bay`at al-ridwân under the Tree and those Ansâr distinguished for the two pacts preceding Emigration (al-`aqabatayn) according to Abu Mansur al-Baghdadi as reported by Ibn Jama`a in al-Manhal al-Rawi (p. 112).
• Then those who entered Islam the year of the conquest of Mecca.
• Then the younger Companions who saw the Prophet as child. Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr would belong to this category.

As for Ahl al-Bayt such as our Mothers the wives of the Prophet and al-Sayyida Fatima and her two children, they are in a class apart with the Prophet . WAllahu a`lam.

3. The mere virtue of accompanying the Prophet as a Muslim

Re: the statement:

“Just accompanying the Prophet does not make someone a good person.”

It makes someone the best person, because Allah (SWT) does not choose for His Prophet except the best as his Companions nor would He praise other than such in His Book, and because the Prophet praised his generation above all others on earth, then the next, then the next. As for the Munafiqun they are not considered Companions in scholarly terminology, although they literally "accompanied" him in his life as reflected in the hadiths of the Lake-Fount (deliberately misinterpreted by certain sects).

There is, in a Muslim's sight of the Prophet , a Divine grant that has nothing to do with the intrinsic merit of that person. Ibn al-Mubarak was asked who was better, Mu`awiya - a Sahabi - or `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz - a Tabi`i? He replied: "The dust in the nostrils of Mu`awiya's horse is a thousand times better than `Umar ibn `Abd al-`Aziz." Al-Haytami related it in al-Sawa`iq al-Muhriqa. This is a hyperbole to impress the fact that the merit of the Sahaba is beyond analogy or reasoning. It is also a sharp sword on the neck of sectarians to cut short all discussion and all compromise concerning the noble Sahaba.

ALLAH KNOWS BEST
amerislam

Salaam AmerIslam!!

hey brother it is not my nature to answer stupid people...but sometime I have no choice because people like "Muslim" only understand the same language as they speak. So tit for tat, if someone call me names...he will get it back same way.

your quote "Tod i dont think immam Ali r.a is the key to paradise,plse be careful of what you quote, only Allah and his messenger are the keys to jannah."

my quote "4. Hazrat Abu Bakr Narrates That He Heard The Prophet (S) Say That: "No One Will Be Able To Cross The Sir At
(Path) Leading To Heaven On The Day Of Judgment Unless He Gets The Stamp Of Ali".

now, don't blame me for it...LOL

AmerIslam you can quote the whole book of Bukhari but as we have said before that most of the hadiths thare are corupted... so how can we accept it? secondly when we quote from Bukhari then either you say nothing or deny that is there or say o'well it is week.
So my suggestion is that if you want to have a conversation or want to argue your point of view then we should agree on a standard like "Quran" and stay on it other wise we will be waisting our time.

How old was Isa (Jessus) when he claimed prophethood?

ABU BAKR VERSUS FATIMA (A)

Fatima-the only surviving child of the Prophet, his most beloved- claimed inheritance of the property which could be apportioned to her in the lands of Medina and in Khaibar, as also Fadak, which having been acquired without the use of force, the Prophet had given her for her maintenance, in accordance with the commands of Allah. [1]

Yet, Fadak became an arena for political games when Abu Bakr refused to transfer it to Fatima. It is appropriate here to speak about Fadak before clarifying the corresponding events which occurred in its regard:

Fadak was a village located at a two-day walking distance from Medina. Apparently, it was inhabited by Jews who refused to submit to Islam at the beginning, but when the later realized the might of the Muslims, especially after they, led by Ali Ibn Abu Talib conquered Khaibar, the Jews decided to yield to the Messenger of Allah without fighting. So he took possession of the village.

The village was valued at 100,000 dirhams by Umar's appraisers when he expelled its inhabitants to Syria. Umar took possession of the village and paid half of the price to the Jews.

Fadak Becomes the Prophet's Personal Property
Since the reason that motivated the inhabitants of Fadak to transfer its possession to Allah's Messenger was fear of the Muslims after they had conquered Khaibar, this property became the sole possession of the Prophet. This conforms to Allah's decree in the Holy Quran:

"What Allah has bestowed on His Apostle (and taken away) from them for this (which) ye made no expedition with either calvary or camelry: But Allah gives power to His Apostles over any He pleases: and Allah Has power over all things." (59: 6)

There was no dispute between the Muslims that Fadak belonged to the Prophet (S); rather, the disagreement was related to how much Fadak had the Jews granted him as part of the peace settlement. Thus, it is strange to hear Abu Bakr narrate a tradition from the Prophet saying:

"We the group of Prophets do not inherit, nor are we inherited; what we leave is for alms!!"

Because, had the Prophet actually said so (which is doubted), how did Abu Bakr understand from this saying that Fadak did not belong to him. There is clear contradiction in Abu Bakr's arguments.

Therefore, after realizing beyond doubt that Fadak was the personal property of Allah's Messenger (S), it is appropriate to inquire as to what he did with it? But the answer is clear. He granted it to Fatima (A) before his death. In other words, Fadak became the personal property of Lady Fatima Zahra (A). Moreover, it is not for anyone to object to the Prophet for granting his own property to any person he wished-including his daughter.

Moreover, the following factors can be cited as proofs that the Prophet (S) granted Fadak to his noble daughter (A):

1. Fatima's saying to Imam Ali (A):

"This is Ibn Abu Quhafa snatching away my father's grant to me."

2. Fatima Zahra's saying to Abu Bakr

"Surely Fadak was granted to me by my father, the Messenger of Allah (S)."

Especially in light of the fact that her infallibility prevents her from uttering falsehood or from demanding that which does not belong to her.

3. Ali (A), the infallible Imam, would not allow his wife to demand something, which did not belong to her.

4. Imam Ali (A) wrote in his letter to Uthman Ibn Hunaif:

"Yes! Fadak was the only land from that which was under the heavens, in our hands; but the inclinations of certain men lusted for it and the souls of others relinquished it."

Hence, had it been part of the Prophet's inheritance, he (A) would not have said that it belonged to them (Ali and Fatima).

5. Imam Ali (A) together with Um Ayman testified to the fact that Allah's Messenger (S) granted it to Lady Fatima Zahra (A), when Abu Bakr requested Fatima to summon witnesses that he (S)granted it to her.

Yet, despite these undisputable proofs, Abu Bakr denied Fatima possession of Fadak and brought the following as proof of the correctness of his action:

1. According to Abu Bakr, Fadak did not belong to the Messenger of Allah; it rather was the property of all Muslims.

2. Besides, according to Abu Bakr, even if it belonged to the Prophet of Allah, he had heard him saying:

"We the group of prophets do not inherit nor are we inherited."

3. Abu Hurairah narrated that the Prophet said:

"My inheritance is not to be divided after me, even if it is one dinar or dirham. That which I leave is alms, save what is to maintain my wives and dependents."

However, when these hypothetical points made by Abu Bakr are put on the board of discussion, free from ideological or emotional prejudgments, and far from blind sanctification of the early followers of Islam, we can record the following points against them:

1. It is true that he denied the Prophet's ownership of Fadak, but all the Muslims--whether early Muslims or now-a-days-unanimously agree that Fadak was the sole possession of Allah's Prophet (S) This fact is also supported by the Quranic verse which we have already mentioned. Therefore, Abu Bakr's claim is invalidated £or being a mere endeavor to null the effect of the Quran.

2. Abu Bakr's claim that he heard the Prophet of Allah (S) say:

"We the group of prophets do not inherit, nor are we inherited; what we leave is for alms,"

can be disputed as follows:

A. This narration is irrelevant regarding this issue; because we have already stated that Fadak was a grant from the Prophet (S) to his daughter before he died. So it is inappropriate to quote a narration related to the issue of inheritance with the purpose of denying Lady Fatima (A) her property.

B. This narration was only reported by one man--who is Abu Bakr, himself--and since the Holy Quran stated a general rule concerning inheritance, the Prophets and their heirs are included in this rule. So Abu Bakr's claim cannot be taken as proof versus the Holy Quran, nor can it be proof for excluding the prophets and their families from the Quranic rule.

C. Yet, the real reasons which provoke Abu Bakr and his followers to deprive Fatima Zahra (A) from her own property, despite the fact that the Prophet (S) said:

"Fatima is part of me, he who loves her loves me , and he who angers her angers me, "'

had more dangerous and implicit motives behind them, and were directly related to the political events of that time.

3. As for Abu Hurairah's narration; it is sufficient for us to keep in mind that he was famous for forging Prophetic traditions. Even he, himself, admitted this; and anyone wishing to study more about his life, should refer to Sheikh al-Madhirah - Abu Hurairah Dowsi, written by Mahmoud Abu Raieh.

The Real Motives Which Lead Abu Bakr to Usurp Fadak from Fatima

The history books at hand need thorough examination and revision, for they have been recorded according to the wishes and satisfactions of despotic rulers throughout history. In view of this, and in light of the fact that Lady Fatima Zahra (A) was a strong supporter of her husband in his quest to regain Caliphate, and that her views were proof that the followers of Imam Ali(A) can use it to easily verify his claims against Abu Bakr; we can easily understand how Abu Bakr was successful in depriving Lady Fatima Zahra (A) of her rights, and how his moves corresponded to his adopted political thinking. So, not only was Abu Bakr able to persuade the Muslims to dismiss Fatima's stands as those of a woman who can be depended upon even in such a secondary issue like Fadak, but also he aimed at convincing them that since she was not to be believed in such a matter, she was also to be deserted when it comes to the most important issue of that time (i.e., Caliphate).

Yet, there are more motives that can be spotted to have led Abu Bakr to usurp Fatima Zahra's (A) property. Among them are:

1. Since Fadak brought large profits to its owners, Ali (A) could use this profit in his fight against Abu Bakr just as Khadija was able her wealth to use against the infidels.

2. The political challenge which Abu Bakr created here, was aimed at proving to Ali and Lady Fatima Zahra (A) that the nation was not ready to aid them in an emotional issue in which he was successful in downgrading Ali and Fatima by controlling and directing the public opinion. Listen to Abu Bakr as he speaks to the people after Fatima's speech in the Mosque:

"O people!

What is this attentiveness to every aimless speech?!

Where were these claims at the time of Allah's Messenger (S)?

He who heard something should say so!

He who witnessed anything should speak out!

Surely they are (Ali and Fatima, like) foxes who have no witnesses save their tails!

They instigate every dissension!

And say: Renew (trouble) after it has cooled down

They seek help from the weak and acquire support from women

They are like Umme Tahal (a woman who was a prostitute during the era of ignorance) whose family chose prostitution for her

Surely if I wish 1 can say a lot; and

had I said (something), would have revealed (much).

But I will remain silent as long as I am left alone."

3. Abu Bakr's drive to deprive Lady Fatima Zahra (A) of her property had another underlying motive. Had Abu Bakr admitted Fatima's words in regard to Fadak as undisputable facts, she could also claim her husband's right to leadership, which would force Abu Bakr to hand it back to Ali (A)

Ibn Abil-Hadid said: I asked Ali Ibn Fareqi, a distinguished teacher of Madrassa-Gharbia, Baghdad: "Was Fatima truthful in making the claim (regarding Fadak)?"

He answered: "Yes!"

I said: "Did Abu Bakr know that she was a truthful woman?"

Again he answered: "Yes."

I then asked: "Then why did the Caliph not give that which she was entitled to back to her?"

At that moment the teacher smiled and said with great dignity:

"If he had accepted her word on that day and had returned Fadak to her on account of her being a truthful woman and without asking for any witnesses, she could very well use this position for the benefit of her husband on the following day and say:

`My husband, Ali is entitled to the Caliphate,' and then the Caliph would have been obliged to surrender the Caliphate to Ali on account of his having acknowledged her to be a truthful woman. However, in order to obviate any such claim or dispute, he deprived her of her undisputed right!"

4. Moreover, there were several emotional factors, which lead Abu Bakr to refuse Fatima, Khadija's daughter, her rights. Some of these factors are:

Once, the Prophet of Allah sent Abu Bakr to the Muslims, during Hajj season, to recite for them the newly revealed Surah al-Tawbah, but before reaching his destination AbuBakr was stopped by Ali Ibn Abu Talib who informed him that the Messenger commanded him to deliver the Surah himself; because according to the Prophet :

"No-one can take the Messenger's place save he or someone from him."

This surely creates a feeling of envy in a man's heart!! A matter, that can be said to have influenced Abu Bakr himself.

B. When the Prophet was too ill to lead the prayers, Abu Bakr was asked by his daughter, Aisha, to do so. But as soon as Allah's Messenger (S) learned what was going on, he, supported by Imam Ali and Abbas, came out and removed Abu Bakr and led the prayers himself. The author of 'Fatima Umme Abiha' says in this regard:

"This event might have led Abu Bakr to think that Fatima was the one who informed the Prophet (S) of Abu Bakr's actions, just as Aisha told him (Abu Bakr) to lead the prayers!!"

C. Aisha, the Prophet's wife and Abu Bakr's daughter, had uncalled for feelings towards Fatima and her mother, Khadija.

For instance, Aisha said:

"Despite the fact that Khadija died three years before the Prophet married me, I did not have a feeling of envy" for anyone as much as I had for her. This was because he (the Prophet) used to mention her name constantly and he was ordered by His Almighty Lord to give her the good news of a house made of brocade in Paradise. He also used to slaughter sheep and distribute their meat among her (Khadija's) friends."

This undoubtedly led Abu Bakr to join his daughter in her feelings towards Khadija, her daughter (Fatima) and her son-in-law (Ali (A)).

D. Aisha, Abu Bakr's daughter was sterile. Yet Khadija (A) was the only wife of the Prophet who had children that survived. Moreover, that child of Khadija was Aisha's main adversary, Fatima. So the Messenger of Allah's descendants would only come from his daughter and her husband, Ali. This surely was an unwelcomed fact to Aisha and her father, Abu Bakr.

[1] Man La Yahdharhu al-Faqih.

More on Fadak:

It appears from recorded historical events, that Lady Fatima (A) was successful at the beginning in persuading Abu Bakr to hand back Fadak to her; listen to part of a speech he (according to some historians) delivered after hearing Fatima's speech. He said:

"O daughter of the Messenger of Allah... Surely the Prophet is your father, not anyone else's, the brother of your husband, not any other man's; he surely preferred him over all his friends and (Ali) supported him in every important matter, no one loves you save the lucky and no one hates you save the wretched. You are the blessed progeny of Allah's Messenger, the chosen ones, our guides to goodness our path to Paradise, and you-the best of women-and the daughter of the best of prophets, truthful is your sayings, excelling in reason. You shall not be driven back from your right...But I surely heard your father

saying: `We the, group of prophets do not inherit, nor are we inherited Yet, this is my situation and property, it is yours (if you wish); it shall not be concealed from you, nor will it be stored away from you. You are the Mistress of your father's nation, and the blessed tree of your descendants. Your property shall not be usurped against your will nor can your name be defamed. Your judgment shall be executed in all that which I possess. This, do you think that I violate your father's (will)?"

Fatima then refuted Abu Bakr's claim that the Prophet had stated that prophets cannot be inherited, and said:

"Glory be to Allah!! Surely Allah's Messenger did not abandon Allah's Book nor did he violate His commands. Rather, he followed its decrees and adhered to its chapters. So do you unite with treachery justifying your acts with fabrications? Indeed this-after his departure-is similar to the disasters which were plotted against him during his lifetime. But behold! This is Allah's Book, a just judge and a decisive speaker, saying:

`One that will (truly) inherit Me, and inherit the posterity of Yaqub,' (19:6)

and

'And Sulaiman inherited Dawood.' (27: 16)

Thus, He (Glory be to Him) made clear that which He made share of all heirs, decreed from the amounts of inheritance, allowed for males and females, and eradicated all doubts and ambiguities (pertaining to this issue which existed with the) bygones.

Nay!

But your minds have made up a tale (that may pass) with you, but (for me) patience is most fitting against that which ye assert; it is Allah (alone) whose help can be sought."

It is apparent that Abu Bakr chanced the mode with which he addressed Lady Fatima (A) after delivering her speech. Listen to his following speech; which is his reply to Fatima's just reported speech.

Abu Bakr said:

"Surely Allah and His Apostle are truthful, and so has his (the Prophet's) daughter told the truth. Surely you are the source of wisdom, the element of faith, and the sole authority. May Allah not refute your righteous argument, nor invalidate your decisive speech. But these are the Muslims between us-who have entrusted me with leadership, and it was according to their satisfaction that 1 received what 1 have. I am not being arrogant, autocratic, or selfish, and they are my witnesses."

Upon hearing Abu Bakr speak of the people's support for him, Lady Fatima Zahra (A)

turned towards them and said:

"O people, who rush towards uttering falsehood and are indifferent to disgraceful and losing actions!

Do you not earnestly seek to reflect upon the Quran, or are your hearts isolated with locks? But on your hearts is the stain of the evil, which you committed; it has seized your hearing and your sight, evil is that which you justified cursed is that which you reckoned, and wicked is what you have taken for an exchange! You shall, by Allah, find bearing it (to be a great) burden, and its consequence disastrous. (That is) on the day when the cover is removed and appears to you what is behind it of wrath. When you will be confronted by Allah with that which you could never have expected, there will perish, there and then, those who stood on falsehoods." (the end).

Although parts of Abu Bakr's speeches cannot be verified with authentic evidence, and despite the fact that we have already mentioned part of the actual speech, which Abu Bakr delivered after Lady Fatima's arguments, it appears certain that Abu Bakr was finally persuaded to submit Fadak to her.

Nevertheless, when Fatima was leaving Abu Bakr's house, Umar suddenly appeared and exclaimed:

"What is it that you hold in your hand?"

Abu Bakr replied: 'A decree I have written for Fatima in which I assigned Fadak and her father's inheritance to her."